Why don't we just let the gods handle this

There are many religions as we know and because of this there is a lot of diversity between them and the people that follow. Why is it that the gods themselves don't handle the differances man to man and winner take all? Who will come out on top?

Jesus will come out on top because there is only him who is alive
All the others are dead or idols.

Originally posted by jon1
Jesus will come out on top because there is only him who is alive
All the others are dead or idols.

oh the typical arrogant reply of a theist...

my only reply to the topic is... how would we know who came out on top? ok, we might know if it was the type of deity that tended to make themselves known, but the rest seem to be quite secretive about their existence.

I bet that felt good madness. Get one in so to speak. There is nothing arrogant about the truth, If you wanted directions to somewhere and saw two people in the street but one was dead, who would you ask.
Seems very logical to me.
Quote, How would we know who came out on top? We might know if it was the type of diety that tended to make themselves known, but the rest seem to be quite secretive about thier existance.
Sounds like an admission to there being Gods out there madness. No, Can't be.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by jon1]

Originally posted by I See You
Why is it that the gods themselves don't handle the differances man to man and winner take all? Who will come out on top?

Due to the fact that Gods are as fictional as Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny there are no Gods to settle the differences.
Nonexistent entities can't do anything, so with that, only humanity can solve our own problems.

Originally posted by jon1
I bet that felt good madness. Get one in so to speak. There is nothing arrogant about the truth, If you wanted directions to somewhere and saw two people in the street but one was dead, who would you ask.

but you don't have the truth, you have what you have faith in, that doesn't make it the truth. your religion is just as valid as odinism, pastafarianism, shintoism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, paganism, tribal religions, etc, because they all have an equal amount of supporting evidence

none.

Seems very logical to me.

it's quite the opposite, it's illogical. it's based solely on faith.

Sounds like an admission to there being Gods out there madness. No, Can't be.

it's called speaking in a hypothetical.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by jon1
I bet that felt good madness. Get one in so to speak. There is nothing arrogant about the truth, If you wanted directions to somewhere and saw two people in the street but one was dead, who would you ask.

but you don't have the truth, you have what you have faith in, that doesn't make it the truth. your religion is just as valid as odinism, pastafarianism, shintoism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, paganism, tribal religions, etc, because they all have an equal amount of supporting evidence

none.

Seems very logical to me.

it's quite the opposite, it's illogical. it's based solely on faith.

Sounds like an admission to there being Gods out there madness. No, Can't be.

it's called speaking in a hypothetical.

Not only do i have proof but I also have evidence, The proof is multiple witnesses to events and the evidence is the people who have been the subject of Gods healing. and medical records to show the ailments were real before the healing.
So, Madness. Hop on a plane and lets show you the truth. But wait, that would spoil all your fun. Quick, find some fancy words or equally lame excuses to get you out of this one.
If someone can be convicted of murder with only two witnesses, surely something must be equally as true if you have eight. Well it would be in a court of law. But not good enough for you though i bet.

Originally posted by jon1
Not only do i have proof but I also have evidence, The proof is multiple witnesses to events and the evidence is the people who have been the subject of Gods healing. and medical records to show the ailments were real before the healing.
So, Madness. Hop on a plane and lets show you the truth. But wait, that would spoil all your fun. Quick, find some fancy words or equally lame excuses to get you out of this one.
If someone can be convicted of murder with only two witnesses, surely something must be equally as true if you have eight. Well it would be in a court of law. But not good enough for you though i bet.

I'd just like to point something out: Ask any scientist what the WORST form of proof of ANYTHING is, and they will tell you "eye witness" because the human mind has a tendancy to see what it wants to see.

Also, generally speaking, Court Cases aren't settled based on eye witness...eye witnesses can help the case, but I don't believe there are too many, if any, cases that were closed solely because someone saw something. Usually there is other evidence presented along with the eye witness testimonial. And lastly, eye witnesses still don't necessarily make the scenerio true...many people have been wrongly accused and sent to prison, even though there were so-called "eye witnesses." Turns out the eye witnesses didn't actually see what they thought they saw...

As far as God's healing, the only way to prove that God actually did heal anyone is to have a video recording of God actually standing with the patient healing them. Obviously, that's not going to happen, so there will never be concrete proof it happened. Just because you believe God healed someone, doesn't mean it's fact.

I've noticed that one of the most difficult things for theists to do is differentiate between "Fact" and "Belief". I suggest any of you theists out there who have this problem go to www.dictionary.com and look both words up. Maybe some of the arguments we have could be resolved just because we may not be on the same page. I'm not trying to be a jerk either, I'm dead serious. It might actually help....

[edit on 20-8-2007 by Jaruseleh]

Originally posted by jon1
Not only do i have proof but I also have evidence, The proof is multiple witnesses to events

subjective evidence. i want OBJECTIVE evidence. hard facts and figures.

and the evidence is the people who have been the subject of Gods healing. and medical records to show the ailments were real before the healing.

provide all the evidence and show me that there is CAUSATION not just correlation.

So, Madness. Hop on a plane and lets show you the truth. But wait, that would spoil all your fun. Quick, find some fancy words or equally lame excuses to get you out of this one.

...i'm not paying for a $1000+ plane ticket over the atlantic, just provide me with solid evidence. if it's really as real as you say it is, why don't you let a skeptical group evaluate it?

If someone can be convicted of murder with only two witnesses, surely something must be equally as true if you have eight.

...no. see, there's a difference between science and law...

Well it would be in a court of law. But not good enough for you though i bet.

...nobody actually gets convicted just on witness testimony alone.... and typically when they do they get exonerated years later on evidence like dna....
that's why so many people are against the death penalty...

just show me hard facts that point towards causation instead of corrolation, show me the mechanism of healing, and prove to me that it is your god doing the work instead of some other possibile deity who just doesn't really care that you're praying to the wrong one.

Originally posted by Jaruseleh

Originally posted by jon1
Not only do i have proof but I also have evidence, The proof is multiple witnesses to events and the evidence is the people who have been the subject of Gods healing. and medical records to show the ailments were real before the healing.
So, Madness. Hop on a plane and lets show you the truth. But wait, that would spoil all your fun. Quick, find some fancy words or equally lame excuses to get you out of this one.
If someone can be convicted of murder with only two witnesses, surely something must be equally as true if you have eight. Well it would be in a court of law. But not good enough for you though i bet.

I'd just like to point something out: Ask any scientist what the WORST form of proof of ANYTHING is, and they will tell you "eye witness" because the human mind has a tendancy to see what it wants to see.

Also, generally speaking, Court Cases aren't settled based on eye witness...eye witnesses can help the case, but I don't believe there are too many, if any, cases that were closed solely because someone saw something. Usually there is other evidence presented along with the eye witness testimonial. And lastly, eye witnesses still don't necessarily make the scenerio true...many people have been wrongly accused and sent to prison, even though there were so-called "eye witnesses." Turns out the eye witnesses didn't actually see what they thought they saw...

As far as God's healing, the only way to prove that God actually did heal anyone is to have a video recording of God actually standing with the patient healing them. Obviously, that's not going to happen, so there will never be concrete proof it happened. Just because you believe God healed someone, doesn't mean it's fact.

I've noticed that one of the most difficult things for theists to do is differentiate between "Fact" and "Belief". I suggest any of you theists out there who have this problem go to www.dictionary.com and look both words up. Maybe some of the arguments we have could be resolved just because we may not be on the same page. I'm not trying to be a jerk either, I'm dead serious. It might actually help....

[edit on 20-8-2007 by Jaruseleh]

Let me give you two instances of the type of healing i am talking about. Not your common cold or a sprained wrist. I was there for both of these and i prayed for one of them.
A friend of mine. Had gone to physiotherepy and the nurse confirmed she could do nothing as he had a frozen hip joint, no movement but in a lot of pain. I prayed to Jesus to give him movement in his hip and after five mins he could lift his knee up to a 45% angle. Trouble with me is "in for a penny, in for a pound" so i thanked him for the healing but asked for !00% healing, after a few more mins he walked over to the dining room table and lifted his knee up and rested it on the edge of the table. He then shed a few tears as he also thanked God for the healing. This was done in his house with about six or seven of the prayer ministry team who my wife and i took there to show them how we pray for healing.
Next one is my wife who could not turn her head except for a few inches left or right. this was due to a degenerative desease that was in her back but was now travelling to her neck. She used a wheelchair to go shopping or to go any distance. Anyway, in church one evening healing prayer was offered and she went forward. she was anointed with oil and prayed over. She came and sat back down and then blacked out for around three or four mins. the vicar asked if she was allright and i said that i think she is being healed. then when she came around she stood up and could turn her head around just as you and i can. It took about three months of prayer before we sent the wheelchair back. These healings are done with many people present and are real healings.
These are just two things. I wont even touch on "words of knowlege" or other gifts that God gives to his people.
So, if you had been where these things happen and you know that the ailments are genuine because you know the people themselves, I think you would have to go away and have a good think about how real God is.
As far as eye witnesses are concerned these are the best because they know the people, they know the ailments are real, can be backed up by doctors, and the end result. Well, it is there before your very eyes.
Yes God does heal, and thats a fact.

Originally posted by jon1
So, if you had been where these things happen and you know that the ailments are genuine because you know the people themselves, I think you would have to go away and have a good think about how real God is.
As far as eye witnesses are concerned these are the best because they know the people, they know the ailments are real, can be backed up by doctors, and the end result. Well, it is there before your very eyes.
Yes God does heal, and thats a fact.

Sorry friend but your subjective experiences are in no way proof of god or that a god heals. It might be a placebo effect that helped these people so unjustly ascribing these healings to your god is in no way a FACT. I mean how do you know it was your god anyway?


G

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by jon1
So, if you had been where these things happen and you know that the ailments are genuine because you know the people themselves, I think you would have to go away and have a good think about how real God is.
As far as eye witnesses are concerned these are the best because they know the people, they know the ailments are real, can be backed up by doctors, and the end result. Well, it is there before your very eyes.
Yes God does heal, and thats a fact.

Sorry friend but your subjective experiences are in no way proof of god or that a god heals. It might be a placebo effect that helped these people so unjustly ascribing these healings to your god is in no way a FACT. I mean how do you know it was your god anyway?


G

Instant physical healings a placebo, Give me a break.
How do i know it was my God anyway? Because it was my God that i prayed to, not the tooth fairy.
Mind you, people didn't even believe in Jesus when he was doing the healings many years ago so i don't expect anyone to believe me really.
Anyway i am going to drop this thread now as i have said what i wanted to and i'm off on holiday for a couple of weeks.


[edit on 21-8-2007 by jon1]

Originally posted by jon1

Instant physical healings a placebo, Give me a break.
How do i know it was my God anyway? Because it was my God that i prayed to, not the tooth fairy.
Mind you, people didn't even believe in Jesus when he was doing the healings many years ago so i don't expect anyone to believe me really.
Anyway i am going to drop this thread now as i have said what i wanted to and i'm off on holiday for a couple of weeks.

[edit on 21-8-2007 by jon1]

We have only your word for these 'instant physical healings' but as I said you still cannot attribute these so called healings to your 'god' just because you feel that it was. Whether or not these people were trully healed is immaterial when deciding whether it was your god, another god or some natural phenomena that was involved - your personal preferrence on the cause is unproven.


G