The Douglas Bader Mystery

AN OPEN LETTER TO ATS MEMBER WAYNOS

When you approached me some time ago and asked if I would agree to you being, if you like, my "spokesman" on this Forum, I said yes with many reservations and warned you that sooner or later the scum element from a number of other forums would find their way to this one and begin yet again their destructive campaign - As you can see it has happened as I predicted and they are indeed here, thus stifling any reasonable discussion or open minded investigation of my story that I will repeat with dying breath is true.

I would venture to suggest to you that I am perhaps the only (now tenuous) member of this Forum who has the courage to openly tell the world who he is and open his memoir and life for all the world to srcutinize.

The postulations and rantings of certain of your membership and indeed ANY of you, are completely and utterly worthless when delivered from behind a cowardly cloak of anonimity. In common law, NOTHING that they/you have to say under these circumstances is admissable or worth a bent penny and nothing that I could say about any of these cowards in these circumstances and in anger would I be liable for.

This newcomer who claims to be a TV producer and hides under the cowardly cloak and claims to live on The Planet of The Apes is so out of character as a producer that it is hilarious and believe me or not, I know a few such producers. Two who have filmed interviews with me and have had their documentaries widely released in the UK and eleswhere.

My wife is retired from the acting profession and has appeared on stage, in films and television and right now, her daughter and my step-daughter is executive producer on a movie being made in Boston to be followed by another one very soon with a director that I am sure you ALL will know - So I can state with confidence that if this fellow is/was the genuine thing he would have beaten a path to my door long before making his claims of finding a genuine and sincere witness to these events. I CHALLENGE HIM to qualify his story with facts and figures not just heresay and have his informant answer the questions I have put to her.... JUST WATcH HOW FAST HE WILL NOT TAKE UP MY CHALLENGE.

The fact that your Moderators have now seen fit to believe this mans story and delete one of my posts as being offensive I find not only amazing put deadly seriously frightening and I am sure WEBPILOT will be able to explain what I mean by that from the activities of he and his accomplice on the AVIATION Forum.

So I will leave you all to the anonimty of your little secret foxholes on other Planets and in time frames that do not relate to reality and hope you soon find another "Bunny" to have fun with.

It was nice knowing you at least.

Kenneth Williams

reply to post by RNM1945


Ah, allow me to speak in a "colleague's" defence.

I've castigated SPM for his empirical statments, but now I have to speak to yours.

Ken, there is no need for Doghead to beat a path to your door. You have, by your own admission, been interviewed twice. Not to mention your website, your postings on other fora and your postings here. You don't need a right of reply.

I don't know who Dog Head works for, but his association with BBC-types greatly eases any misgiving I may have. I personally find little to be wrong with his work practices. Perhaps that makes me a cowboy. Perhaps it could be that the vast majority of people don't really know what it is "Producers" do. After all, it is a bit of a "black art".

Your story is, according to you, well-known. Why, then, should Dog Head interview you once again? How will that advance the cause of truth?

Some people choose to identify themselves publicly here, others do not. *Some* of what is spoken about on this board comes close to, and probably does, breach, if not the OSA, certainly clearances. Others choose to remain anonymous out of respect for their sources' wishes.

Anonymity is not in and of itself cowardly.

Neither is disagreeing.

But you do yourself no favours by attacking those who disagree with you. It's all rather reminiscent of a certain leadership cabal that stated if you weren't with them, you had to be against them. News, I was sure, to the Swiss.

And so the pattern repeats itself - assertion, question, abuse, self righteous accusations of "censorship" and suggestions that somehow KW's "status" entitles him to be unquestioned. What his wife and step daughter are doing or have done have not a whit of bearing on whether KW is ""on the level" or not.
It's laughable that you now call for "reasonable debate" when your answer to DH and myself who tried to engage in reasonable debate were rebuffed with abuse. You are, as ever, the author of your own misfortune.

KW, your post was not deleted because anyone believed someone over another, but because your abusive behaviour broke the rules of this board. Get over yourself.


[edit on 14-1-2008 by SPM.45]

WEBPILOT... Point one - Please be aware that you are now quoting quite frequently words, sentences and phrases exactly as you did in your prime on the Aviation Forum so, is it not fair to suggest that your denial of being, as you indeed are, WEBPILOT and you haste to deny this when I publish the name WEBPILOT is not a bit of a worry, and does make you a sort of a liar if I am allowed to say that?

Point two... I just want to clear something up with you so that we all fully understand where you are coming from, OK?

You have heaped praise and adulation on this member DOGHEAD and congratulated him for bringing this dreaded Enigma to a close as you always knew would happen.

OK, consider this... he claims he has found some lady who claimed to have worked at the Stork during the time of the "Bader Incident" she tells him ,"Yes" there was somebody there who was called by others and called himself Douglas Bader.

She accessed the guest book and found an entry that "looked" like Gough or could that have been Doug....?

She now claims that she accepted that he was Douglas Bader but in some extraordinary way was advised by a blackmarketeer that he "Didn't actually think that it was Douglas Bader"

She now tells the "Producer" that he was not in uniform. Didn't someone else also claim that? She now claims however that there were some uniforms hanging up near his room but has no idea why they were there.

And that really just about sums up her evidence.

Enter our "Producer" who now says that this evidence proves that it wasn't Bader at all but "probably" some other serviceman sans both legs. And then states Bader's conversation with me many years later is of no consequence and that the matter is now closed as far as he is concerned!

You WEBPIOLT are now unable to contain yourself and rush into print with plaudits for the "Producer" and scorn for Ken Williams.

You will now have to work very very hard to deny that my potted version of the action that has caused your great joy is not pretty well spot on as shown here.

Now, I invite the less radical members of this club to comment upon this remarkable would be ending to my 3 years of work and research.

Now WEBPILOT our discussions are REALLY concluded.

Kenneth Williams

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


Howlrunner I will be brief,

Can you give me a logical explanation as to why you, a seemingly learned man (despite your being one of those faceless, nameless people)need to display a photo of a near naked young girl on you page?

Could it be that she is one of those "Sources" that you are protecting?

Kenneth Williams

reply to post by RNM1945


Ken,
I expected that you would be back with some attempt to justify yourself and smear others despite your many times repeated "that is an end to our conversation". The evidence presented by Holwrunner is of course not conclusive, but is logical and supported by corroborative facts, whereas your fantasies start from the _entirely_ unsupported premise that Bader was there. You appear never to have seriously questioned this identification and have sought to find out _why_ he might be there, rather than _if_. Simple detective work soon unravelled the liklihood that your man could have been Bader and Howlrunner's work simply confirms this. Your story contains too many assumptions and extrapolations to be reasonable, and when combined with the mistakes and elaborations it all falls apart. That really is the end.

To go back to the way this whole thread started out: The Bader Mystery has been thoroughly debunked. Like it or not Ken, that is now fact.







[edit on 14-1-2008 by SPM.45]

reply to post by RNM1945


I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

(except, of course, that that is exactly what I have done...damn you, irony )

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


But you havn't dropped to Ken's rather peurile level. With every abusive posting, Ken makes himself look rather childish and spiteful and further erodes any respect or credibility he once might have had.

[edit on 14-1-2008 by SPM.45]

AHEM

Please stay on topic guys.

Thanks
FredT, Moderator

Interestingly enough, I've just been tipped off that there is a forthcoming auction of some of Bader's personal items amongst which is one of his artificial legs. It would appear to be an "early" leg,as it's in a box addressed to P/O DRS Bader, Uxbridge. Obviously of itself, it proves nothing but it is complete with waistband but no shoulder harneses which gives some further credence to the understanding that Bader did not use the shoulder straps.

The auction also includes a couple of crutches, apparently also contemporary to Bader's recuperation at Uxbridge after losing his legs. No walking sticks though!

www.eleys-auctions-forthcoming.co.uk...




[edit on 16-1-2008 by SPM.45]

I've spent the last three hours going through this post.

It is very intersting to say the least and some of the infomation provided does seem to indicate that some called Douglas Bader or someone useing his name checked in the Stork Hotel under his name.


After looking throught the pages upon pages of stuff to look at I have come up with two options:


1) DB DID in fact come back to England for new legs (possibly to liverpool because Germans may have had spies near the specialist in case DB ever did escape and have to have new legs fitted.)))


2) Someone was checked into the Stork Hotel under DB's name (as a cover) in order to get some sort of treatment and so he was told by the Government to use DB's name in case Nazi spies ever overheard a convosation and then enquire of their Spy Masters if they where aware that DB had escaped.


I would like to take this chance to speak to Mr Williams either through privite e-mails or on u2u's to gather more on this most intriging mystery

Hi UK Alien Buff

If you have a genuine interest in this actuall happening and are keen to help prove my case, talk to member WAYNOS and see if he will send you my private e-mail address. If you just want to think you can prove it did not happen, please don't bother because it did happen and, I've been there and done that with others.

I will listen to what you have to say but warn you, I do NOT suffer fools gladly!

Cheers

Originally posted by UK Alien Buff
I've spent the last three hours going through this post.

It is very intersting to say the least and some of the infomation provided does seem to indicate that some called Douglas Bader or someone useing his name checked in the Stork Hotel under his name.


After looking throught the pages upon pages of stuff to look at I have come up with two options:


1) DB DID in fact come back to England for new legs (possibly to liverpool because Germans may have had spies near the specialist in case DB ever did escape and have to have new legs fitted.)))


2) Someone was checked into the Stork Hotel under DB's name (as a cover) in order to get some sort of treatment and so he was told by the Government to use DB's name in case Nazi spies ever overheard a convosation and then enquire of their Spy Masters if they where aware that DB had escaped.


I would like to take this chance to speak to Mr Williams either through privite e-mails or on u2u's to gather more on this most intriging mystery

I think it's now absolutely clear what the truth is here and Mr Williams can add nothing, other than "I saw it, I'm right" despite the weight of contrary evidence.


On the point re German espionage, it's well established that the British MI authorities rounded up every German spy of any import - and Bader was not so important to the Germans or the war effort that they would put a spy on post to intercept him on the remote chance he made it back so we can elimate that idea! The other idea is also somewhat off beam - there's no evidence of any governmental involvement. It seems clear this was a jape of some sort which the impressionable young Ken Williams swallowed hook line & sinker.

I'd be interested to hear what Waynos thinks - he seems to have abandoned this thread.



[edit on 2-2-2008 by SPM.45]

I'd be interested to hear what Waynos thinks - he seems to have abandoned this thread.

No, still dropping in regularly and keeping an open mind.

It seems clear to me that *something* happened, from following kens website for a few years I am certain that Ken is being completely honest and is not trying to fool anybody, likewise I see no reason to disbelieve Kens account of what he experienced, or that Bader confirmed the event in a phone conversation.

There have been several plausible explanations of what occurred from both sides. For instance I can see merit in the idea that someone in the Stork was being called 'Douglas Bader' just because he too had lost his legs, much as a speeding driver today might be called 'Lewis Hamilton' by a sarcastic copper. That is utterly believable, but is not proof.

Baders confirmation might have been an example of being polite, or he might have really remembered, none of this is provable either, unfortunately, so basically I'm still considering all possibilities.

Likewise I still think it may simply be a case of Kens memory placing the event out of its true timeline, this is a very common thing and I have done it myself several times and have only lived half as long as ken. However even if, and I mean if, Ken is ultimately shown to be mistaken, I still think an octogenarian veteran deserves to be speaken to with respect as mistakes and lies are two different things. After all that has been said though my feeling is that Ken really experienced what he says and what we are still lacking is a cogent explanation for how or why it was possible for, as logical and reasonable many of your explanations as to why he is wrong are, they are not actually proof, they are plausible explanations, similarly if Ken has made errors in his recollections it does not make the whole thing a lie, nobody's perfect.

Least of all me.

Hello Waynos and anyone else interested,

There seems to be a continuing leaning toward a theory that I may have got my "Timeline" wrong or mistaken due to advancing years - not so under any circumstances.

I claim, after many years of investigation and theorizing, that it was most likely that my encounter with Douglas Bader at the Stork hotel in Liverpool was in August 1942 and I repeat 1942.

I was employed at the Stork Hotel from February until November 1942 and have a reference from the Stork Hotel to this effect. This reference has been publsihed MANY times on my now defunct website and I am sure many of the thousands of followers of my TRUE experience will certainly have made copies of this. Further, I have a reference relating to my previous employment at the Adelphi Hotel in Liverpool - A different Hotel, a different timeline and different people. I did NOT meet Bader at the Adelphi, I met Bader at the Stork in 1942 when I say I did and, there was no "jape" just a three dimensional legless Douglas Bader who I helped each morning as I have outlined in my story. No other carbon copy impersonator with identical amputations, just Douglas Bader and, he confirmed that he was there when he came to Australia many many years later.

Nothing will change what I have to say about my experience and for however long it takes for the truth to come out I will eventually comprehensively proved to be right.

That's all

Ken Williams

Hi Waynos, good to have your input. I think you have it here - we have seen that Ken did get his timelines that he originally used to place his story in mid 42 muddled and having had those pointed out to him, took them out of his story. Like you say, this is nothing unusual and doesn't of itself make someone a liar, but it does call that persons credibility into question as a reliable witness. Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to say Ken is a liar, though he is clearly something of a lineshooter. I think he was a naive young lad that got taken in and having now made such a fuss about it, he can't swallow his pride and back down.

On the issue of respect, I quite agree, all should be treated with respect, veteran or not, old or young, but that is two way and as we have seen here Ken does not treat anyone that seeks to question his account with respect - to me that means he abrogates his right to respect, at least in relation to his account. Simply being a veteran does not make him above question. Frankly, his abusive attitude further detracts from any credibility.

Clearly there will never be any proof of this as even if POW records turned up (and most were destroyed) showing Bader in various camps contiguously, Ken will most likely allege that the records were doctored to cover up the mystery. However we do have the account from Dolly that contradicts many of the assertions made by Ken - again, not proof but very much more compelling than Ken's "version".

I still come back to the gaping holes in this story - there is clearly a yawning gap between the description of the man that Ken met and Bader and the simple facts that could place such a man in such a place at such a time. Ken takes it on trust that the information given to him about this person being Bader was gospel as opposed to irony, a joke or an assumed name (you can almost hear the manager's pained tones - "Oh go and help old 'Douglas Bader' in room 7") and I can't given any real credence to the alleged confirmation by Bader in the 70s - as I know from colleagues that knew Bader, the man did not suffer fools or people he considered his inferior gladly - witness the call he made to Alec Ross after the latter left Bader's legs at Colditz, thus a phone call from a stranger claiming to have helped Bader many years before would likely have been got rid of, and how better to do that quickly and easily with no fuss than say "Oh yes, old boy, I remember you well - nice to hear from you. Goodbye".

Too many assumptions, too many holes, too many mistakes. I think it's likely that there was a person in the Stork that either called himself, or was known as Douglas Bader, but it wasn't the real one. Eliminate the impossible and what is left is the truth - I think we have done just that.
]

[edit on 9-2-2008 by SPM.45]

Hi Waynos,

There you go, see what I mean about the predicted trouble makers taking over the discussion?

The above contributor and his one time accomplice from the Channel Isles have left their destructive trail of venom all over various Forums and have also broadcast their reasons for why it could not of happened and have NEVER even considered that it not only COULD be true and that it is indeed TRUE!

We are now led to believe that the mythical "DOLLY" found and questioned by someone who claims to be from "The Planet of the Apes" is a more reliable witness that I! Oh! my God, I do not believe that anyone can but does ignore my challenge to the alleged BBC man on this Forum about his "witness." Where indeed are HER credentials, her job references the answers to questions I put to her that remain unanswered and when is the man from "The Planet of the Apes" to be brought to account?
This is the sad part of anonimity, nothing that such people can say or claim is worth a brass farthing and has no validity in a court of law, REAL names and details are ALL that count! I can state with confidence that "Dolly" does not exist until it can be proved otherwise - NOW LET's SEE SOMEONE WORK ON THAT!

Or perhaps the truth is that the majority of contributors to this Forum are indeed, all from "The Planet of the Apes?"

However, you Waynos will like me, have the last laugh when men from "The Planet of the Apes" are all exposed for what they really are, Wannabes and dreamers and the authorities are evetually required to release the full story of this Enigma.


KW

Thereby confirming my comment regarding "respect". Ken, please explain how exactly simply questioning your account equates to "trouble making". If you believe that your claims hold any water then you cannot object to serious, objective questioning in order to find the truth. The fact that you can only offer slurs and schoolboy insults to anyone that offers an alternative explanation indicates to me a person that cannot swallow his pride and admit that he could be wrong.

It's fascinating that you mention what might or might not be admissible in a court of law - yet the evidence for the so-called Bader Mystery is so scant that it would never get as far as any court!

One other of your last statements also bears comment: "I can state with confidence that "Dolly" does not exist until it can be proved otherwise".
Well, I can state with certainty that that Bader did not step foot back into the UK until 1945 - until it can be proved otherwise. And there is, as you readily admit, no evidence. QED.



[edit on 10-2-2008 by SPM.45]

Everyone take a deep breath. People can disagree without insulting each other. We must it is part of the terms and conditions.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks and remember....

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