Salt water as fuel. Offically working......

I wonder how long before the US Gov or some other oil rich nation sends some one to assassinate this genius:

technorati.com...

Interesting - I'm not buying it, though. Even if this is real I'd be interested to know if the process can actually produce any net power. I'm sure that radio frequency generator he's got draws a decent amount of juice, far more than the flame boiling water to turn a turbine to produce electricity is capable of putting out.

I've got three problems with this one, actually. Taking them in order:

Number 1: The human body is mostly water. If John Kanzius' device really does use a specific radio frequency to create some sort of electrolysis and separate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in water, why isn't John himself effected? He seems to be standing awfully close to that burning test tube to NOT be effected.

Number 2: Pyrex is often used in what are called "boiling tubes" - test tubes which are used for (you guessed it) boiling liquids, or (more generally) exposing them to extreme temperatures for long periods of time. Problem is that Pyrex melts at about 1500 degrees Fahrenheit (821 degrees Celsius), and Kanzius claims that his device has created flames which were around 3000 degrees and can maintain that temperature for about two minutes - the video doesn't suggest units for this temperature measurement, but in either case it is well in excess of the melting point of Pyrex, glass, and pretty much everything else.

Number 3: Hydrogen - when in the presence of Oxygen - burns with a bluish, almost clear flame - you can see an example in this YouTube video of a "hot test" of a Space Shuttle Main Engine, a rocket engine which burns liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen. These are exactly the two elements Kanzius claims to be burning in the video, but his flame is - quite clearly - orange.

Sorry, dominicus. Kanzius certainly puts on a good show - it had me going for a while, and the video at least (for me) passes the laugh test - but this one is looking pretty sketchy.

Phloyd,

1) A person won't be effected in this process if the radio frequencies are specifically directed toward a small area, which can be done using special insulation magnetic materials.

2) The tubes could be specially formulated with additional materials to possibly uphold higher temperatures and the flame that's shooting out is at the end of the test tube, which in case in 3,000 degrees would slowly begin to melt the tube itself. The 2 minutes might not be sufficient enough for the melting to occur and/or the flame reaches 3,000 at the epicenter of the flame itself.

3) Hydrogen burns blue, but in the case of salt water, salt is a by product and what color does salt burn? Red

Originally posted by dominicus
Phloyd,

1) A person won't be effected in this process if the radio frequencies are specifically directed toward a small area, which can be done using special insulation magnetic materials.

2) The tubes could be specially formulated with additional materials to possibly uphold higher temperatures and the flame that's shooting out is at the end of the test tube, which in case in 3,000 degrees would slowly begin to melt the tube itself. The 2 minutes might not be sufficient enough for the melting to occur and/or the flame reaches 3,000 at the epicenter of the flame itself.

3) Hydrogen burns blue, but in the case of salt water, salt is a by product and what color does salt burn? Red

1) No.


2) No. The tubes would have melted long before this, and we plain haven't GOT transparent materials which hold up to 3000 degrees, C or F

3) actually possible. however, salt does not agree with combustion chambers and therefore this ALONE would invalidate this for any use or purpose... in short...






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[edit on 7-8-2007 by forsakenwayfarer]

oh god. he thinks this machine can cure cancer aswell....


i think this thread is of HIGH IMPORTANCE to the contents shown here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _________
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./ It’s a trap! \
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _,,,--~~~~~~~~--,_ ..\ ._________/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,-‘ : : : :::: :::: :: : : : : :º ‘-, . . \/. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .,-‘ :: : : :::: :::: :::: :::: : :

: ‘-, . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . ,-‘ :: ::: :: : : :: :::: :::: :: : : : : :O ‘-, . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .,-‘ : :: :: :: :: :: : : : : : , : : :º :::: :::: ::’; . . . . . . . .
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. . . . . . . /,’,-‘ :: :: :: :: :: :: :: : ::_,-~~,_’-, ;; ;; ;; ;; | . . . . . . .
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. . . . /,’____ : :\ ‘-#\ : \, : :\ :\ \ \ : ‘-,___,-‘,-`-,, . . . . . . . . . . .
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. . . . .\,/ /|\\| | :/ / : : : : : : : ,’-, :: :: :: :: ::,--‘’ :,-‘ \ \ . . . . . . . .
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./ : : : : :’-, :: | :: :: :: _,,-‘’’’¯ : ,--‘’ : : : : : : : : : : : / : : : : : : :’’-,
/ : : : : : -, :¯’’’’’’’’’’’¯ : : _,,-~’’ : : : : : : : : : : : : : :| : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : :¯’’~~~~~~’’’ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : | : : : : : : : : :





[edit on 7-8-2007 by forsakenwayfarer]

(shakes fist) You beat me to it. But by so little.

Although I think your caption is a bit off ... "It'sa crap" would fit better, I think. (Calimari - he's Italian after all)

Touche friend...


Fastest 'draw' in the forums when it comes to nonsense. In short - get your game up.

dominicus

My response to your #1: What, exactly, are these "special insulation magnetic materials" you mention in your post? The rig Kanzius has for the test tube and radio frequency generator is not closed on all sides, so even if he is using some sort of insulation material the radio waves from the generator will be able to move into the area around the generator - the area occupied by Kanzius, the reporter, the cameraman, etc. Why is the water in their cells not effected by the radio frequency generator - if, indeed, that is what the machine is at all?

My response to your #2: Name one clear material which has a melting point under 3000 degrees - either Fahrenheit or Celsius, the makers of the video you provide were quite sloppy and do not cite units. You can't - such a material doesn't exist. Even iron has a melting point well under 3000 degrees - iron melts at 2800 degrees Fahrenheit (or 1538 degrees Celsius, take your pick).

My response to your #3: There is no reason for salt to burn in the setup Kanzius describes. Salt is not carried along with the electrolyzed oxygen and hydrogen in such a situation - instead, it is (eventually, if enough water is electrolyzed ) deposited on whatever container is used to contain the water. This is essentially the same principle as the one used in desalination plants.

And, finally, one more problem with the video - one I can't believe I didn't think of in the first place. Why doesn't the paper towel inserted into the test tube burn if the temperature of the burning (supposed) hydrogen/oxygen mixture really reaches 3000 degrees? Paper burns at approximately 232 degrees Celsius, or roughly 450 degrees Fahrenheit. Sure, at first Kanzius claims that the paper acts as a wick for the fuel of the flame, then he shows that the "wick" isn't necessary, an interesting logical complication in and of itself - anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of chemistry should know that gaseous hydrogen and oxygen won't be "wicked" anywhere by a paper towel. However, the question remains: Why, if the temperature of the flame really reaches 3000 degrees, does the paper towel remain intact?

[edit on 8-7-2007 by PhloydPhan]

Same technology, not salt water mind you, but yeah, you can run a car on it....
www.whydrogen.com...

Edit:
More information...
HHO Gas (google Video)

[edit on 8-7-2007 by twitchy]

Oh my god!
Simply incredible!
If this is real this guys is going to be murdered by the BIG oil!

Save HIMMM!!

Originally posted by twitchy
Same technology, not salt water mind you, but yeah, you can run a car on it....
www.whydrogen.com...

Edit:
More information...
HHO Gas (google Video)

[edit on 8-7-2007 by twitchy]

Wait wait wait............Hold the phone!
What this member has posted deserves its own thread.......
I just watched the doc, I'm blown away. Burning ceramic and tungsten in seconds!! the guy is holding the unit WTF!!!!
MUST SEE!

[edit on 8-7-2007 by IMAdamnALIEN]

From wiki;

Furthermore, HHO also called HOH, is very similar (but not the same as) Brown's gas, a mixture of 11% hydrogen and oxygen (www.phact.org...). This was tested in the welding industry as a possible fuel source but results in exothermic decompression (implosion) when the tanks are almost empty. Brown's gas is not in wikipedia either. Yet both HHO and Brown's gas are real substances. They have real properties, some of which are dangerous. Wikipedia does have a page for oxy-hydrogen (basically HHO), but no properties on its safety, or applicability as an automotive fuel. I believe Klein's video shows a HHO booster, similar to hydrogen boosters which already exists. (consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...). However, they do not replace gasoline engines as you cannot get 100 miles from a gallon of water. (mb-soft.com...)... Bottom line. Real facts about it are needed on wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.194.208.203 (talk • contribs) on 11:22, 29 March 2007.

Apparently, the "inventor" was rather upset that wiki debunked his FALSE CLAIMS about this gas, so he/his "company" deleted the page.

Wiki 1

Wiki 2

As for the pyrex not melting, come on guys... why does a cutting torch not melt? Because he tempertaure is being achieved in the flame... not in the torch. Similar situation in this test situation. The gases are 'boiling off' in the pyrex tube and are ignited above the tube. Same for the paper towel. As long as there is sufficient flamable gases passing over the paper towel they will use-up the available O2 and there will be nothing left to combust the paper.

jtma508 just punked eveybody with the torch argument. Who's the one that believes the sun revolves around the earth now???? In actuallity it's a bunch of universes revolving around each other, or better yet eating each other up (black holes)

Either way, whether debunked or not, the bottom line, besides the torch argument which shut everyone up, the bottom line is that everyone's a skeptic and scoffs and many of these self inventors, for years, sometimes decades, soemtimes even the entire life and generations after the inventor dies, until one day it ends up being true.

Nothing in science is absolute truth. Just because such and such can't happen becase of thermal dynamic and/or other laws means nothing. These laws all have loopholes and are all one invention away from being dismissed entirely.

Doubt your doubt instead, knowing that the foundations of science are crumbling!!!!

Originally posted by dominicus
Nothing in science is absolute truth. Just because such and such can't happen becase of thermal dynamic and/or other laws means nothing. These laws all have loopholes and are all one invention away from being dismissed entirely.

Doubt your doubt instead, knowing that the foundations of science are crumbling!!!!

Exactly, thermodynamic laws are all part of Newtonian Physics, which Quantum Physics is slowly and steadily throwing each rule of Newtonian Physics out the window. I wouldn't be suprised if conservation of energy is next.

For those who stick to their guns, claiming that energy cannot be created nor destroyed... I ask you one question : How did it get here?

If energy cannot be created, how can it exist? I'll tell you how, because you're wrong. It can be created.
There's a quirk behind the rule, that I would love to share with you, but then I'd have to give up my entire explanation as to how the Universe could come from nothing, and I haven't published it yet.

But I can tell you with absolute certainty, you are wrong. You can create energy... but theres a quirk which makes it, not-so-worth-while.

So, exactly where, in your personal experience did you CREATE energy.

EXACTLY what are the undesirable side effects?



Description and links in triplicate, please.


Thanks.

I didn't see any need to respond to jtma508 because, frankly, his "torch argument" (as you put it) is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard in my entire life. Take a close look at the original video - the fire just sort on top of the "water". If you look closely at about ~1:06 into the video you can see that the fire actually is on top of the "water". Then compare what you see in the original Kanzius video to this video of some using an actual cutting torch. See the difference? The flame is jetting away from the torch at such high speed that you can actually hear it his, almost like the sound a jet engine makes. You don't see the same effect - or hear a similar sound - in Kanzius' video. So there is no cutting-torch-like behavior here - which means that the test tube should melt, and the paper should burn.

Even if you wanted to believe so badly that jtma508 actually made a valid, point, what did you think would happen when the level of "water" in the tube started to go down - which it inevitably would as hydrogen and oxygen were separated and burned off? If jtma508's interpretation was correct the level of flame would go down as well, leaving the supposedly super-hot flame to begin to form in the middle of the test tube!

Satisfied, dominicus? I doubt it, because your writing - and lack of any attempt to answer the questions raised by myself and forsakenwayfarer - show that you've already made up your mind that this Kanzius fellow has discovered a magical source of "free" energy, and you're not going to let pesky things like facts get in your way.

As for you, johnsky, saying "you're wrong, but I can't tell you why because I haven't published my explanation yet" doesn't cut the mustard. Evidence, sir, evidence! Of course, you haven't got any, which I'm sure is why you didn't link to it, but still, in principle, it is nice to support arguments with things called "facts" - you may have heard of them.

Not true Phloyd. Perhaps the scale of the torch vs. the test tube is a bit extreme but the principal behind it is the same. The RF is boiling off some gases in the salt water. The expansion of those gases displaces the gas above it in the tube so the flame is always being pushed away from the opening of the tube. I can tell by your pedantic tone that you are an extremely intelligent and educated individual. That being the case I know that you are aware of one of the primary characteristics of a gas so I wouldn't need to repeat it here. But for all the other less gifted people on the thread I'll cite it: a gas will fill it's container. So no, the flame won't descend into the tube for two reasons. 1) the gas being produiced will always fill the available space above it as it escapes the tube (and is combusted) 2) as the salt water level decreases there will be an increasing concentration of RF energy per volume water (theoretically increasing the rate at which gas is released).

Now, that said, I'm not sure about the inventors claims of flame temperature. Not because it would melt the pyrex but because of the color of the flame.

And as for the value of the technology, as has already been pointed out, it depends largely on the amount of energy used to generate the RF needed to lyse the water.

Originally posted by PhloydPhan
My response to your #2: Name one clear material which has a melting point under 3000 degrees - either Fahrenheit or Celsius, the makers of the video you provide were quite sloppy and do not cite units. You can't - such a material doesn't exist. Even iron has a melting point well under 3000 degrees - iron melts at 2800 degrees Fahrenheit (or 1538 degrees Celsius, take your pick).

I'm going to assume you mean OVER and not UNDER 3000 degrees because I can name dozens of substances that are clear and melt under 3000 degrees. I can think of only one that fits the description adn melts above 3000 degrees C. Diamond. Clear and melts well above 3,000 C, 3547C to be exact.

Now obviously the guy isn't using a diamond test tube...but I had to post this after you throwing out your challenge with an obvious answer.

Great catch, BlueTriangle - I stand corrected on both counts. Kanzius would need a test tube with a melting point over - not under - 3000 degrees, and you are quite right about the diamond. You are entirely correct and I, apparently, need to proofread a bit better... We are in agreement, however, that Kanzius isn't using a diamond test tube.

As for your response, jtma508, I'll wear that accusation of pendanticism with pride.

I would, however, like you to explain why you think the only difference between the test tube pictured and a cutting torch is one of scale. A cutting torch is fueled by pressurized tanks of gas (oxygen, Acetylene, hydrogen, MAPP gas, etc.), whereas the flame in the Kanzius video is supposedly produced by electrolysis, not boil-off (as you state in your post). You seem to be confusing boiling with electrolysis - the first produces water vapor (which is not flammable), whereas the latter produces molecular hydrogen and oxygen (which - hopefully needless to say - are flammable).

If the flame in the Kanzius video is really being produced by burning hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (02) gained via the electrolysis of seawater the level of the water should decrease at whatever rate the constituent elements (hydrogen and oxygen) are electrolyzed. It should also - as I noted in my first post on this thread - burn a clear-ish blue color.

These gases - H2 and O2 - would expand to fill their container, the test tube, just as you note in your post. However they would not to exit the test tube to ignite, because all the elements necessary for ignition are present just above the surface of whatever seawater remains in the test tube - we would have molecular hydrogen (fuel), molecular oxygen (oxidizer), and heat (supposedly as much as 3000 degrees, although we still don't know if that's 3000 degrees Fahrenheit or 3000 degrees Celsius). Fuel + Oxidizer + Adequate Heat = Fire. That's the first day of high-school chemistry.