Knowing Vs. Believing.

This has been something I've pondered over for a long time, but tonight I just feel like writing it down and maybe exchanging ideas with some other people. People put a lot of stock into believing. They talk about leaps of faith, gaining faith, losing faith, having great faith, being faithless, etc. But with out knowledge, what is faith? I know it's cliche, but is faith really just blind? Without knowledge, isn't faith just filling in gaps of things that you don't know with things that you're not really sure of? You don't know, so you just guess and stick with it? Is that all faith really is? Just to go in a different direction and not use Christianity as an example, let's take Islam. One Muslim might say to another who is in doubt, "It's about faith. You have to take a leap of faith and simply believe in Allah. It is your choice" But if that same person had been born in the United States, he might be having this same conversation as a Christian with another Christian. In other words, if you're a Bhuddist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, etc. and you're relying on faith, what really separates you from people of other religions? Is it just that you were raised in a family where believing in God became part of your core? Without knowledge, is faith really just a stab in the dark? Why believe in something if you don't have some sort of knowledgeable foundation to back it up?

Wow this is surprisingly good.

I agree with your question, but I haven't an answer, unfortunately.

I hope this was a solid contribution to theh discussions ..

Originally posted by runetang
Wow this is surprisingly good.

I agree with your question, but I haven't an answer, unfortunately.

I hope this was a solid contribution to theh discussions ..

Thanks! I hope more people will read it and possibly be inspired to discuss it.

Hi Herman. I will try and shed some light on this for you.
I think that all christians come to believe in God by having a little faith. When you then ask God into your life this is where things change. we all read the bible and for some christians thier faith grows more and more by what they learn. then you get others, like me, who have, lets call it a God experience. without going into to much detail, God comes into your life with an experience that makes you realise that it can only come from God.
From this comes many more moments when you just know that God is working in your life, from answered prayer to healing people from physical illnesses and having words to give to others. I have experienced all these things but a lot of christians haven't.
So what this means is that some believe with faith alone and some believe through the personal knowlage that God is real.
Hope this helps
jon

Very interesting post Herman. I think your understanding of "faith" in this discussion follows the general trajectory of that term first ushered in by the Enlightenment. In this sense, faith means having a belief in a certain set of propositions as being true, such as Moses being the giver of the law, the triune nature of God, Mohammad being the last of the prophets, whatever the religion. Hence, in this context we understand faith on an epistemological level, as just another kind of knowledge structure that can be adjudicated with others.

An ancient Hebrew, Christian, Muslim, (I'll stick to the Middle East religions now) would have no understanding of the term "faith" as we use it today. For them, faith was an action, a way of orienting one's life. In short, faith composes two major components: 1. Obedience to God's commandments. 2. Trust in God's redemptive plan. That's it. Obedience and trust. Two activities of one's life, not propositional beliefs.

I don't mean to derail your discussion, just wanted to point out that the way we use the term "faith" today, by both believers and non-believers, would have been very foreign, even anathema, to a person long ago.

Does the OP suggest that faith and reason are in conflict?
Can a faith not come at the end of protracted reasoning. I can't think why not? Trust and obedience are useful concepts only once the reasoning process has taken place. Otherwise, we end up with peopple suppressing doubt and becoming extremists of all faiths. If you believe in a metaphysical Law that can be summarised by :'What goes round, comes round' then you will also see the evidence, in your lifetime for moral causes and moral effect. Reason and experience then strengthen belief and lays the foundation of a higher 'faith'.

Toromos offers,

2. Trust in God's redemptive plan. That's it. Obedience and trust. Two activities of one's life, not propositional beliefs.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Faith has two general implications which can be implied either exclusively or mutually
To Trust:

Believing a certain variable will act or has the potential to act a specific way despite the potential influence and probability of known or unknown change.

To have faith in ones spouse that he/she will keep a promise of commitment
To have faith that the world will someday be peaceful
To have faith in a person to pay you back

To believe without reason:

Believing impulsively, or believing based upon personal hopes
In either case, Faith is based upon the interpretation of the intangible (feelings, emotions, etc.) instead of the physically tangible and is primarily associated with religion in modern times.

I would also offer the fact that we have “faith” when we open a can that has a label “beans” that the can will actually contain beans.

Or… many examples of the “faith” that comes from believing advertising promises.

I have “faith” in my Christian God and religion because I believe, have faith, that the Bible, old and new testaments, were written by humans inspired by the Holy Spirit. I also have faith that today’s bibles contain the same message as the original writtings because I believe God is still doing the inspiring.

From jon1:

From this comes many more moments when you just know that God is working in your life, from answered prayer to healing people from physical illnesses and having words to give to others.

Christians also experience actual physical presence of God in their lives. I believe this also comes from “faith” and fosters greather “faith”..

Ignatius The Holy Bible
Revised Standard Version
Catholic Edition

Mark 9: 24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!"

I think that knowing may come from actually experiencing God in my life. My belief comes from my "faith" of knowing who God is from reading the Bible. We must read the Bible also with the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding the different layers involved. Meditating, prayers and thinking are all part of the process.

Have I covered everything? :shk: only trying to help.

This is ultimately a question that one must answer for themselves. Is faith and belief the same thing? They aren't in my experience. Beliefs are created from memory. I believe the can contains beans because it always had contained beans in the past, but there is always a hint of doubt that an error might have occured and it contains something else.

Faith is doubt-less knowing. I don't know the can contains beans until I open it. Therefore, I don't truly have faith in God until there is no doubt.

But how are we to have zero doubt in something that can't be seen? Is there a can-opener for God?

Meditation,or just simply bringing awareness to the unconscious, is for me that can-opener.

I didn't choose to have faith and yet, it chose me. Go figure!

You are right about my remark concerning the "can of beans". Although it may go even further back. And yes, I believe there is a "can opener to God". I agree with your post.

good topic hermon. And nice points Jon

I think faith and belief are somewhat different and the same. Faith is not faith in religion or christainity. Faith can be faith that you do things and get past the barrier that in front of you. You have faith to cook eggs, you have faith that you can jump a bridge.

As far as faith and belief. You have faith to believe in what you belief. A Belief is in your stand point on what you think. That is a belief. Faith is in your head and heart. You have faith to push your further than you been.

Faith and belief in religion I would say you have faith to believe. What jon said was real. Sometimes all it takes a little faith. Then God push you to see more. The exprences come to open the head. But it takes more than wanting to know the truth, it takes more than working so you get to the gates. It takes faith to see whats around you.