The PentaCon a HOAX?

In case you've missed it, Caustic Logic has proven beyond all doubt that the alleged "NTSB" flight path animation promoted by Pilots for 9/11 Truth (P49T) is bogus.

Here's the thread if you want to read the grisly details:
www.abovetopsecret.com...


PentaCon Background

The P49T claimed that an NTSB animation video showed that Flight 77 did not approach the Pentagon along the official flight path. The claim was that the animation video, which was supposedly created by the NTSB, showed that Flight 77 passed north of the Citgo gas station, all while flying some 400 feet above the roof of the Pentagon.

The clear implication was that the animation proved that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon as described by the "official" story. The other implication was that the animation was created from the Flight 77 Flight Data Recorder data, which the P49T claimed they also received from the NTSB. This data is commonly referred to as the csv file.

Now it's been shown that the csv file could not have been the source of the data used to create the animation. In other words, according to the P49T, they received a CD from the NTSB which contained two contradictory sets of data -the flight animation and the csv file.

However, amazingly the P49T didn't jump up and down about the fact that the NTSB sent them conflicting data that would have proven beyond *ANY* doubt that there was an attempt to falsify Flight 77's final flight path. This would have been headline news.

Instead, P49T made a big deal about the animation being the *REAL* flight path since it showed that FL 77 flew over the Pentagon and completely missed the light poles. The animation also happened to nicely coincide with the eye-witnesses they interviewed for the PentaCon movie.


Now here's the challenge to the producers of the PentaCon:

If you really have a CD that was sent by the NTSB that shows conflicting data about the final approach of Flight 77 at the Pentagon, then you have *the* smoking gun of a government conspiracy to falsify the flight path of FL 77. Call a press conference to once and for all expose this government conspiracy.

Of course this would bring a huge amount of scrutiny about the authenticity of your claims. Before making your claims to a skeptical national audience, why don't you see if you can authenticate that the NTSB was *REALLY* the source of the animation and csv file.

See if you can convince anybody on ATS that the animation and csv file really came from the NTSB.

Good luck.





EDITORIAL UPDATE
Retraction thread: Pentacon Is NOT A Hoax






[edit on 9-6-2007 by AboveTopSecret.com]

Great stuff.

This is gum-shoeing at it's finest. Kudos to you Nick for drawing attention to this information, and major props to Caustic for the unbiased research. These kinds of threads make me proud to be a member of ATS.

Originally posted by PartChimp
Great stuff.

This is gum-shoeing at it's finest. Kudos to you Nick for drawing attention to this information, and major props to Caustic for the unbiased research. These kinds of threads make me proud to be a member of ATS.

Thanks! But Caustic Logic deserves all the credit.

Unfortunately, I've been noticing more and more that the so-called "Truth Movement" has become more like a political movement. The agenda is limited to attacking the other side, and any sort of critical and honest thought is rare. There are even people here at ATS who think that any criticism of people within the "Truth Movement" is akin to being a traitor.

It's ironic that many people who jumped on the "Truth Movement" bandwagon are no different from the "sheeple" that they often criticize.

But getting back to the PentaCon video, what really stands out is that Jack Tripper was posting teasers on the ATS boards frequently prior to the release of the video, but has been silent during the entire NTSB animation debunking. He even called out Caustic personally in the title of one of his threads in the PentaCon forum, but has been totally silent during the unraveling of the NTSB animation story.



[edit on 2-6-2007 by nick7261]

I understand computer data is the root of this debate.
What I dont understand is what does computer data have to do with the fact that the location from where the eye witnesses at the citgo saw the airplane made it impossible for the plane to have hit the light poles?

Please explain to me how the computer data debunks the eye witness testimony.

Originally posted by acmeartifacts
I understand computer data is the root of this debate.
What I dont understand is what does computer data have to do with the fact that the location from where the eye witnesses at the citgo saw the airplane made it impossible for the plane to have hit the light poles?

Please explain to me how the computer data debunks the eye witness testimony.

The computer data *does* debunk eye-witness testimony if the computer data that you're looking at is the csv file. The csv file shows a flight path that matches the official flight path south of the Citgo.

Apparently on the same CD from the NTSB as the csv file, there was an animation video. It was implied that the animation was made from the csv file. It was this animation video that the P49T used to corroborate the eye-witnesses.

Only problem is that the csv doesn't match the animation video, and that the animation video is internally incorrect. The animation video shows a magnetic heading of 70 degrees when in fact if the plane was on the north of the Citgo path, the magnetic heading would have been more like 80 degrees.

So the animation video doesn't corroborate the eye-witnesses, nor does the csv file. And the csv file and the animation video, both allegedly originating with the NTSB, don't match each other. The light poles and the internal damage to the Pentagon DO match the csv.

But apparently the P49T people decided that the animation video was the ONLY data that refelcted the *real* flight path of FL 77, and video taped witnesses that matched the animation. However, Caustic has proven that the animation video is wrong, as is the entire premise of Pandora's Black Box.

Bottom line is that the animation video doesn't really even corroborate the eye-witnesses either because the magnetic heading shown in the video is 70 degrees. This corresponds to a south-of-the-Citgo flight path. Somehow the visuals were added to the video to give the appearance of the north of the Citgo flight path even though the heading indicated south of the Citgo.

[edit on 2-6-2007 by nick7261]

Then you should edit the title of this thread. The smoking gun of the pentacon was the eye witness testimony. To suggest it is a hoax because he used incorrect data to support the main claim is just as irresponsible as him using data that he could not him self verify due to a lack of expertise on the subject.

Lack of expertise? The people going on about the animation claim to be commercial airline pilots. How can they POSSIBLY have a lack of expertise if they're pilots? If someone came forward to me, and said "Here's this great animation we got that shows your point perfectly!" then it's up to me to find someone independently to verify that if I don't know enough about it. Taking their word as gospel and running with it is just as irresponsible as them claiming this is the smoking gun, when they KNOW there's a problem with it.

The same can be said with taking the governments explanation and running with it.
I forgot to add, taking the information of anyone on this forum and running with it is just as bad.
Nothing against Caustic Logics research, as it was good, but he is not a pilot or an expert on maps either. How do we know what he has come up with is accurate. Did he get a expert to review the data?

[edit on 2-6-2007 by acmeartifacts]

Originally posted by acmeartifacts
Then you should edit the title of this thread. The smoking gun of the pentacon was the eye witness testimony. To suggest it is a hoax because he used incorrect data to support the main claim is just as irresponsible as him using data that he could not him self verify due to a lack of expertise on the subject.

What? Did you become the thread title police all of a sudden?

The title is PentaCon a Hoax? Notice the question mark. This is asking a question... another way of saying, "Is the PentaCon movie a hoax?" You can't simply try to cover for the makers of the PentaCon by saying they used incorrect data to support their claim. You're missing the BIG PICTURE.

The makers of the PentaCon, along with P49T, and CIT, depending on which group they are part of, didn't just use incorrect data to support their claim. Here's what they did:

1) They claimed to have in their possession an animation video and csv file that was allegedly supplied to them from the NTSB.

2) They published the animation video as a movie entitled "Pandora's Black Box" and claimed this was an NTSB animation video.

3) They concluded based on the movie that FL 77 flew over the Pentagon, and flew on the north of the Citgo flight path.

4) They then began spamming the ATS forum promoting a 2nd movie which turned out to be the PentaCon movie.

5) They released the PentaCon movie with eye-witness interviews, still using the supposed NTSB animation video in an attempt to corroborate the eye-witness testimony.

Now here's the catch...

All along P49T implied that the csv file and the animation file were supplied by the NTSB from the same CD that was sent to them as a result of a FOIA request. They also implied that the csv file was the source of the raw data that was used to create the animation.

Then along comes Caustic Logic, who digs a little bit and points out two important things:

* The animation video is internally inconsistent. The flight path in the video supposedly showing FL 77 coming in north of the Citgo does not match up with the magnetic heading of 70 degrees shown in the same video. This proves the animation is fake.

* The animation video does not match the csv file. This means that the items of the CD which allegedly came from the NTSB according to P49T were contradictory with each other.


Now the big question:

If the P49T were such aviation experts why didn't they point out that the animation video showing the 70 degree heading was impossible if the flight path was NORTH of the Citgo? The animation video actually debunks the eye-witnesses.

But instead, P49T used a video that a layperson with no aviation experience, Caustic Logic, was able to figure out it was fake in a couple of hours and the P49T didn't point out the fakery of the video at all after having it for 6 months. Instead, the P49T used the video to support their north of the Citgo claim and to promote their movie.

To this day, nobody from P49T has even commented on Caustic's thread, and P49T has produced no evidence that substantiates that the animation video or the csv file came from the NTSB.

Your suggestion that it's irresponsible for me to question the validity of the PentaCon because the maker of the movie couldn't verify his own claims is laughable.

Originally posted by acmeartifacts
The same can be said with taking the governments explanation and running with it.
I forgot to add, taking the information of anyone on this forum and running with it is just as bad.
Nothing against Caustic Logics research, as it was good, but he is not a pilot or an expert on maps either. How do we know what he has come up with is accurate. Did he get a expert to review the data?

[edit on 2-6-2007 by acmeartifacts]

Read his thread. It's simple geometry. There were many, many, many posts going back and forth and there was a consensus from all who know how to do math that a magnetic 70 degree heading = 60 degree true heading. Look at the graphics. The animation doesn't match with the heading.

Don't take anybody's word for it. Look at the research other people did and decide yourself.

Can we get Jack in here.. would be interesting to see what he has to say on this!

Round 1... FIGHT!

So taking false information that proves their idea is what passes for truth nowadays. PentaCon---at least the title was honest.

That is why I say the Truth Movement is diseased and good as dead. Strip out agendas and come up with Facts and reform as the Fact Movement. Extreme ideologies of debunking and truthing information just clouds the issue. A middle ground of analysis has to happen if questions are ever to be answered, I call it the Fact Movement. Just a title to differentiate the wheat from the chaff. Or is that too sensible to be considered?

Nick! Thanks for the effusive and semi-deserved props. But I see a big problem off the bat: Unfortunately, Acmeartifacts is correct:

Originally posted by nick7261
PentaCon Background

[...] The animation also happened to nicely coincide with the eye-witnesses they interviewed for the PentaCon movie.

Unfortunately, this is all the connection to be found. I had originally expected the animation/FDR issues to play a big role in The PentaCon, but not once is it shown in the smoking gun version, and only referenced in the sense of "check it out." They don't even specify it corroborates them. I asked Jack Tripper (producer/interviewer Craig Ranke) about WHY the animation was excluded (thinking of both authenticity and altitude discrepancy - no 440-foot flyover could've tricked these witnesses).

And while I've got your attention, Jack, i was curious why the video didn't call on the FDR animation provided to your brother org by the NTSB via FOIA requests even though it verifies this path? I found that strange.

He replied after app. consulting w/someone:

The FDR is irrelevant to the eyewitness testimony.
They do NOT match.
Pilot's for truth has determined the FDR to have been altered.

Therefore, your challenge may not play out well:

Originally posted by nick7261Now here's the challenge to the producers of the PentaCon:

If you really have a CD that was sent by the NTSB that shows conflicting data about the final approach of Flight 77 at the Pentagon, then you have *the* smoking gun of a government conspiracy to falsify the flight path of FL 77. Call a press conference to once and for all expose this government conspiracy.

They don't care about it, which is its own possible clue. OOPS! To make this work, you'll need to look at the testimony of their witnesses. The defense here is not an NTSB pedigree, but psychological - to debunk their claims you need to wuestion four upstanding citizens and the way their testimony is spun.

It's still worthy of the hoax test of course and I guess it is.
Here's my review:frustratingfraud.blogspot.com... .html
Great in-depth review here, best yet: arabesque911.blogspot.com... -pentacon-smoking-gun.html

I hope this helps. I'm not ready for a new frontal attack on this front, still digging into other issues at the moment...

[edit on 2-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

I dont want this to turn into a fight between Caustic and Tripper. I just wanted to make sure that the author of this topic did not discount the eye witness testimony of pentacon just because the FDR data was bad.

Im glad Caustic understands my concern.

Originally posted by acmeartifacts
I dont want this to turn into a fight between Caustic and Tripper. I just wanted to make sure that the author of this topic did not discount the eye witness testimony of pentacon just because the FDR data was bad.

Im glad Caustic understands my concern.

Yes, I want to clarify this as well. This has nothing to do with the credibility of the eye-witnesses shown in the PentaCon video. The confusion comes from the different groups and videos.

The groups are:

Citizens Investigative Team -CIT and Pilots for 9/11 Truth.

The videos are Pandora's Black Box and The PentaCon.

As far as I can tell, the P491T has been called CIT's "brother" organization, whatever that means. The heart of the topic is the "NTSB" animation and the NTSB data file. It was my understanding the the producers of the PentaCon originally claimed the animation substantiated the eye-witness testimony.

In fact, I was under the impression that the "NTSB" animation was what got them started on the north of the Citgo flight path in the first place. Now if it's true that they're saying the animation is fake too, then that raises even more questions.

For starters, what are the odds that the NTSB would give them a fake animation that happened to match the eye-witness testimony that they would later put on the PentaCon video? Not only did the "fake" animation show the north of the Citgo flight path, it also showed the altitude being too high to hit the Pentagon.

Again, it seems incredibly odd that the NTSB would happen to give them a fake video that matched the flight path and the "pull up" described by the witnesses on the PentaCon video.

Well they've never said the animation was fake, just some unspecified faking on the FDR end. Kinda funny since one problem is the altitude discrepancy between them, and the Pilots feel the fakery was to make the plane appear much lower and thus closer to CIT case. But still far above. ???

But really the animation has nothing to do with this, which is why the thread started out wrong. It can still prove of value however...
The divorce of the sources in itself is odd, and all the Qs you raise are very relevant.
The "brother orgs" put forward two separate "proofs" of this path, never explicitly link the two that I've seen, but their fans get it and put 2 + 2 together. It's a weird case, man... I still don't get it.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Well they've never said the animation was fake,

This in itself should be a red flag that something's not right. The animation shows two important things in relation to the flight path (let's hold off on altitude for now).

First, it shows the plane flying north of the Citgo. Second, it shows the magnetic heading at 70 degrees.

This is what you discovered was wrong to begin with. P49T, being experts that had access to this video for 6 months, should have recognized this right away.

I'm not totally clear on the difference between CIT and P49T, but apparently they are made up of some of the same people. Presumably P49T made the Pandora's Black Box video, right? And the PBB video was used to stir up excitement for the release of the PentaCon.

But nowhere in the middle of any of this expose on the flight path does anybody from CIT or P49T make a big deal about how the animation video, allegedly from the NTSB, must be wrong! Forget everything else -you've proven that the animation video is impossible, but the expert pilots at P49T weren't able to spot the obvious problem with the video. That makes no sense to me.

just some unspecified faking on the FDR end. Kinda funny since one problem is the altitude discrepancy between them, and the Pilots feel the fakery was to make the plane appear much lower and thus closer to CIT case. But still far above. ???

The altitude story never made sense to me in terms of the fakery. Plus, this is the first thing that didn't match the video. If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of the PBB video was to show that the pilot of FL 77 did NOT reset the trim on the descent. Then the csv file comes out and it shows that both the pilot's and the co-pilots altitude trims were reset at 18000.

But instead of pointing out the obvious problem that the csv didn't match the video, P49T seemed to focus on the trim adjustment being a smoking gun of fakery. But not because it didn't match the animation! P49T used to dual trim reset to argue hat the hijackers wouldn't have reset both altitudes on the descent but ignored that this didn't match up with the animation.

But really the animation has nothing to do with this, which is why the thread started out wrong.

I'm not sure about this. The animation and the csv were apparently on the same CD from the NTSB according to the story. And the animation was used to promote the PentaCon before it was released. I don't think it's all that easy for CIT or P49T to divorce themselves from the animation.

It can still prove of value however...
It's a weird case, man... I still don't get it.

Since ATS is a conspiracy site anyway, I might as well put this on the table as a theory. I'm not saying it's true....

Maybe somebody got on the track of the North of the Citgo witnesses several months back. And maybe this somebody had access to the software to create the flight animations. Thinking that nobody would know the difference, this Mr. X may have created the animation to beef up the north-of-Citgo witness stories. Figuring that he already had the pdf's from the FOIA request, he thought, "What the heck... I'll say the animation came with the other stuff." Then for good measure the csv file was created too.

So when the animation and csv file started to unravel, the attention had to be taken away from the PBB project, and directed towards the new PentaCon video. By omission, the PentaCon video seems to show that they didn't want anybody thinking about the animation that they used to promote the release of the video, even though the animation had previously been used to corroborated the eye-witness testimony.

In other words, the case gets less weird if you start with the premise that neither the animation video nor the csv file actually came from the NTSB.

Originally posted by nick7261
I'm not totally clear on the difference between CIT and P49T, but apparently they are made up of some of the same people. Presumably P49T made the Pandora's Black Box video, right? And the PBB video was used to stir up excitement for the release of the PentaCon.

They'd say both were independently warranted by the evidence, and they haven't been explicitly linked together that I've seen. P49T includes
- Rob Balsamo (John Doe X)
- Glenn Stanish
- "Undertow" (Stanish?)
- John Lear
- Calum Douglas too I think (Snowygrouch)

CIT is at core
- Craig Ranke (Lyte Trip, Jack Tripper)
- Aldo Marquis (Merc and variants on Merc)
They of course have other members and probably some crossover. I dunno. They are "brother orgs" which means they boost each other while covertly undecutting each others' cases. (??)

But really the animation has nothing to do with this, which is why the thread started out wrong.

I'm not sure about this. The animation and the csv were apparently on the same CD from the NTSB according to the story. And the animation was used to promote the PentaCon before it was released. I don't think it's all that easy for CIT or P49T to divorce themselves from the animation.

I just corrected you on that elsewhere too. Two diff FOIA requests, two diff packets. Undertow got one batch, and SG handed them his animation to boot. CIT has nothing but... and getting to the point of this thread:

Since ATS is a conspiracy site anyway, I might as well put this on the table as a theory. I'm not saying it's true....

Maybe somebody got on the track of the North of the Citgo witnesses several months back. And maybe this somebody had access to the software to create the flight animations. Thinking that nobody would know the difference, this Mr. X may have created the animation to beef up the north-of-Citgo witness stories. Figuring that he already had the pdf's from the FOIA request, he thought, "What the heck... I'll say the animation came with the other stuff." Then for good measure the csv file was created too.

So when the animation and csv file started to unravel, the attention had to be taken away from the PBB project, and directed towards the new PentaCon video. By omission, the PentaCon video seems to show that they didn't want anybody thinking about the animation that they used to promote the release of the video, even though the animation had previously been used to corroborated the eye-witness testimony.

In other words, the case gets less weird if you start with the premise that neither the animation video nor the csv file actually came from the NTSB.

I think this is a very good hunch. If you want to find the key to the PentaCon story, look at Lagasse. He's their star witness, the most sure, the most damning, the most credible, and the most consistent. I'm not sure about the other three, but he's been saying since 2002 that the plane was to his left - north - as he filled up at the north end of the station. Now if we take the presumption that this path is WRONG, then that means he's been confused or worse for all this time. Previously unnoted, an eyewitness expert would have known about this little-noted oddity.

Also there's Dick Eastman, original Mr Pgon flyover dude. He had argued with Lagasse, who insisted the plane hit the building, but from the north. Now in the 'Con, we see Lagasse as star witness and Dick Eastman thanked in the credits (for what I dunno) in this new flyover theory. That's fishy.

Then you prep people, illustrate Lagasse's story with an "NTSB" animation, then have Lagasse retell his impossible account on camera, and three other dudes to "corroborate" (even tho they don't match well). It hink the decoupling of the FDR corroboration was due to what you suspect - they knew the animation would fall apart, so the attention is shifted to CIT's movie.

So is THAT what "brothers" do?

edit to remove middle part I hadn't meant to include

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

well its all a bit odd imho, but thats jsut me, im not a pilot nor did i witness the events of the day first hand.

but what ive always found just a little curious...ALL those people on the road that day...and only FOUR witnesses say it went north of the citgo?

and if we were to all be REALLY paranoid...who's to say that the "witnesses" are who they claim to be? NOT saying they arent, but it would be pretty easy for me to dress like a cop, claim i was a real cop and use his name then say anything i wanted to.

yeah, thats REAL paranoid, but unless someoen else has called these guys and asked if they WERE in fact in this video and if they DID say what they said on tape...its a slight possibility even if it is improbable.

All possibilities are on the table I guess. I'm pretty sure it's all more subtle than that. Ed Paik's story is really almost the official one. Acme doesn't want to see another fight 'twixt me and Jack, I'm not sure I feel like it either, and Nick hasn't offered any formal challenge on their actual approach. In fact, Nick, what's up w/this thread? Are you challenging the PentaCon or not? If not maybe get a mod to change the title or something? It's a bit weird now.

If challenge, then well I'll just see. I won't let it eat up my time until I'm ready to research stuff a bit more and add something good.

Oh and they have 13 witnesses (these are their four faves), tho I doubt they all really lined up perfectly - I guess they're able to decide which non-corresponding bits to dismiss and which will form their final flight path:

From a pic provided by Lyte Trip, accurately scaled onto the grand loop - CIT's path of course in green. I'd bet if you studied their testimonies carefully you'd find enough clues to assemble at least three or four other flight paths... Just a flippant guess. I don't feel like digging that deep right now...