California Assembly votes to require tracking device in semiautomatic pistols

California Assembly votes to require tracking device in semiautomatic pistols

sfgate.com

In an effort to curb deadly gun violence, the state Assembly on Tuesday passed a bill that would make California the first in the nation to require a mechanism inside semiautomatic pistols to stamp information that would help authorities track down criminals.

"About 45 percent of all homicides are never solved ... for lack of evidence," the bill's author, Assemblyman Mike Feuer, D-Los Angeles, said on the floor of the Assembly.

(visit the link for the full news article)

The bill would require that the gun stamp the serial number and type of gun on each shell casing when fired. This in no way would limit anybodies ability to procure a gun, rather allow them to identify which gun was involved in a crime. Most crooks do not recover brass, but I suspect that someone will build a bag that catch ejecting shells and leave no evidence behind.

sfgate.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Originally posted by FredT


The bill would require that the gun stamp the serial number and type of gun on each shell casing when fired. This in no way would limit anybodies ability to procure a gun, rather allow them to identify which gun was involved in a crime. Most crooks do not recover brass, but I suspect that someone will build a bag that catch ejecting shells and leave no evidence behind.

sfgate.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

To be honest with you, I know quite a bit about hand gun nomenclature and this is probably the stupid piece of legislation that I have every heard of.

Politicians should stop wasting taxpayers money, law enforcement and the judicial system can not even enforce the laws they already have.

Politicians should also stop trying to justify their existence by coming up with nonsense, but most of them do not live in the real world anyhow.

Thanks for posting the info. I still can't believe this would even be considered.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by Realtruth


To be honest with you, I know quite a bit about hand gun nomenclature and this is probably the stupid piece of legislation that I have every heard of.



Thanks for posting the info. I still can't believe this would even be considered.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by Realtruth]

Could you spell this out for those of us that don't understand this?

Thanks.

Just another reason to police your brass. I wonder how they plan on having the pistol do this? Firing pin might work. I also have to wonder about how this will affect reusing the casings for reloading. I go through the box at the sportsman's club I belong to every time I'm there for 9mm casings. After you get four or five different numbers on the casing this law becomes a moot point.

Does sound mighty dumb!

I imagine IF it goes thru without it being fought in the courts (similar to the SF gun BAN that got voted in, then fought down), that it will give the gun makers loads of headaches.

I mean serial number and make of the gun, that crazy. They will need to design something that can of course be changeable, to stamp all the different serial numbers, yet unchangeable, so as to not allow buyers to CHANGE the serial themselves.

I'm thinking the make would be a numbered system as well...ie: for a CZ 9mm, the numbers 76h8 or whatever, would match a database of guns...The numbers could also be microprinted...

Crazy.

The last sentence: This isnt a gun control bill, its a crime control bill. Yeah right, its akin to charging $900 per bullet...

ALSO, if you're a criminal, wouldnt you just to to your local shooting range, pick up some fired brass from OTHER people, then plant the brass at the scene of the crime to incriminate someone else. This opens up all sorts of stupid scenarios. Also I'm sure this wold not hold up in court on a homicide trial.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by greatlakes]

Originally posted by FredT


The bill would require that the gun stamp the serial number and type of gun on each shell casing when fired. This in no way would limit anybodies ability to procure a gun, rather allow them to identify which gun was involved in a crime. Most crooks do not recover brass, but I suspect that someone will build a bag that catch ejecting shells and leave no evidence behind.

sfgate.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Or you can just use a revolver. No spent brass to worry about.
They already have devices for semi-automatic weapons that catch brass casings,mainly for people who reload or don't want a ton of shells laying around their property.
www.floridagunworks.com...

Yet another piece of do-nothing legislation that wil merely serve to inconvenience the lawful gun owner (at his own expense, I might add) and do absolutely nothing to stop crime. It will, however, be a boon for the stolen-and-imported gun rackets.

I just thought of something: if I had two firearms of the same caliber, I would need separate ammo for each of them, right?

Yeah, that makes sense.

Looks like another influx of Californians headed my way. Caliban territory is what gun folks call California here in Vegas. Atleast now the housing market will pick up.



[edit on 5/30/2007 by DarkStormCrow]

This reminds me of the EV1... the electric car California helped kill.

Mandate a good idea, but make it impossible to achieve.

This will destroy the handgun market in California. Which is of course the desired outcome.

If they were serious they would require the bullets themselves to be traceable, despite any deformity from impact. After all, it's not the shells that kill people...

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Realtruth

To be honest with you, I know quite a bit about hand gun nomenclature and this is probably the stupid piece of legislation that I have every heard of.

Thanks for posting the info. I still can't believe this would even be considered.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by Realtruth]

Could you spell this out for those of us that don't understand this?

Thanks.

What this actually means is that handguns will go way up in price for the law abiding citizens. Criminals will circumvent anything that can imprint a bullet by disabling that part of the gun. Or just getting someone to manufacture guns that don't imprint.


This is only for Law abiding citizens. Criminals don't give a @hit one way or another and will do whatever it takes to get around the system or just ignore the system.

Examples. Sawed off shotguns, automatic weapons, Silencers, armor piercing ammunition, exploding ammunition, and the list goes on all illegal, but criminals still carry them and use them. Law abiding citizen wouldn't ever think about using or carrying any of these items.

Lets see someone steals your gun uses it for a string of crimes and then your screwed or even better they duplicate your stamp and make 40 guns just like it and then go on a rampage. What a cluster.

Like I said this is retarded.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by Realtruth]

[edit on 30-5-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Yet another piece of do-nothing legislation that wil merely serve to inconvenience the lawful gun owner (at his own expense, I might add) and do absolutely nothing to stop crime. It will, however, be a boon for the stolen-and-imported gun rackets.

Absolutely correct! This is just as stupid as they get. Our tax dollars hard at work for politicians living in a bubble.

Anyone who reads my posts knows that I own many guns.

I am against 99.9% of gun control laws because they make it harder for law-abiding and trained citizens to buy a firearm, while criminals, who ignore the laws anyways (that's why they are criminals) continue to obtain them easily.

However, I can find no fault with this bill (this is from someone who moved away from Cali because of their absurd gun laws). There is NO infringement, and there is ZERO cost to the taxpayer. The program would be paid for by gun manufacturers , not you and me. If anything, this would save tax dollars by cutting down on police investigation costs.

There does not have to be a drastic change in the way firearms are made either. Brass cased ammo expands in the chamber when it is fired. It would be absurdly simple to manufacture in a way to stamp that brass with a marking, either numbers or a bar-code. My brass is already stamped with my guns unique marks anyways, as is every shell that has ever been fired in the history of mankind. There is nothing at all wrong with making those marks easier to trace and identify if they were used in the commission of a crime.

This brings us to a small problem of after-market barrels. I have a few extra barrels that I have ordered for various reasons (shooting lead, tracers, etc). All the barrel manufactures have to do is put their own "barcodes" inside the chamber and record their customers names+serials. Not a huge hassle at all.

Having multiple numbers on reloaded brass is not an issue as any reloader will tell you that the brass is resized and died between loadings. the marks would be pressed out, at least enough to tell what the newest "unpressed" mark is. In fact, if the numbers were small enough , and only half a millimeter from the case mouth, it would be removed completely during the reloading process.


Theres a LOT of people here saying this is a horrible idea but no-one is giving any reasons. I understand though. Any gun control idea is immediately thought of by most shooters as "a bad idea by a gun-grabbing commie".



------------------------------------------EDIT---------------------------------------

RealTruth, you want to know whats really retarded? The fact that some people are so uneducated about firearms that they think armor-piercing ammo, Short barrel shotguns,silencers, exploding ammo and machine guns are illegal, but still think they know enough about gun laws to call other peoples thoughts about them "retarded".

I own every one of those items you listed, legally. I am not a cop or affiliated with law-enforcement in any way, but I still have them. Hell sometimes the cops I know go shooting with me because they think my guns are "fun". (they are too)

Every freakin day I have to put up with uneducated people like you treating me like a criminal because I don't share the same hobbies as them, and their too "busy" to try to learn something about gun laws. Try reading a book instead of mindlessly repeating something you heard somewhere once.

You want to know what else is retarded?

Originally posted by Realtruth


Lets see someone steals your gun uses it for a string of crimes and then your screwed or even better they duplicate your stamp and make 40 guns just like it and then go on a rampage. What a cluster.

Like I said this is retarded.

That is the most stupid argument I have ever heard. I don't know of one person who would do nothing if they discovered one of their guns was stolen. You will not be held responsible because there will have been a police report that said your gun was stolen.

You can not build your own barrel. You cant do it. It takes hundreds of thousands of dollars for the equipment needed to make pistol and rifle barrels. It's not something you can do in your basement in your free time with a hacksaw. Your not going to get "stamp" copies anymore than you get serial number copying now.(non-existent)



I do tend to agree with APC that the point of this bill is to kill handgun sales in Cali. Handgun manufacturers will most likely decide to not sell their wares there instead of conforming to the new law. If you live in Cali, don't fret though. Every time a new gun law came out in Cali, some manufacturer will rise up to the challenge to take that geographic market. Just look at what happened with the .50BMG cartridge there to see an example.


[edit on 31-5-2007 by Tiloke]

Its a nice idea and all but as soon as the gun is stolen its no longer a useful system for catching criminals because you don't know who has the firearm nor where they are, you just get to see a poor sap who was the legal owner of the gun feel like total crap when the gun is then used by some punk to kill someone and the media subsequently drags him/her through the mud and uses the incident to push through even more legislation.

Tax payers might not foot the bill for this but the gun buyers will as it will no doubt take some serious money for the R&D to make this work with existing designs, thus pushing prices up significantly to make up for the cost of research as well as the increased costs of production.

Originally posted by Helig

Tax payers might not foot the bill for this but the gun buyers will as it will no doubt take some serious money for the R&D to make this work with existing designs, thus pushing prices up significantly to make up for the cost of research as well as the increased costs of production.

All you need is a quick laser engraving inside the chamber near the front. A computer can easily make sure every one is unique.Quick cheap and easy. I'm actually kind of ssuprised they aren't already doing this.

I had the microscopic edge of my ladies diamond laser-engraved with our names for about 30 bucks, cheap.

You are correct in that this bill will not help track stolen guns. However, it will give investigators a place to start when they find the cases. That's something they did not have before. Before the burglary and the homicide would have been completely unrelated and therefore the investigators could miss vital clues by not knowing about the burglary.



-----------------------------EDIT------------------------

About the owner "feeling bad" if their stolen gun was used to kill someone.

I would not feel proud if someone stole my pencil and used it to write a fantastic symphony, likewise, I should not feel bad if someone steals my gun and kills someone. As long as someone takes take reasonable percautiions against theft, they should not feel bad.

I know you weren't talking about me specifically, but I wanted to throw that in there.




[edit on 31-5-2007 by Tiloke]

Don't guns already leave unique marks on both casing and slug?

For casings its the striking pin leaving a unique mark for every gun and with slugs its the striations that are unique.

For illegal guns this will always be the way to identify weapons since I'm fairly certain that if some engraving method is incorperated into the guns, the illegal arms sales guys will have a way of disabling this mechanism before its even incorperated.

The striation and pin indentation identification methods can only be nullified if after the use of a gun in a crime, either the criminal replaces the pin and gets rid of the old one and files out the barrel or he destroys the gun entirely.

A third identifier would be helpfull but useless when people know about it.
They already remove serial numbers and other identifiers from the guns when they hit the illegal arms market, so they'll probably remove or modify this identification method too.

If I'm not mistaken, some US states already testfire guns before they are sold (to get a imprint and striation sample) and put them in the database).


[edit on 31/5/07 by thematrix]

You are correct, the marks left on the case by the striker, magazine lips, extractor and feed ramp is relatively easy to identify, as are the marks made on the actual bullet made by the rifling in the barrel.

The problem with those marks is you have to have the gun to compare the casings and/or bullets to. Under the new law, those marks would be registered and saved before the gun is ever sold. You have to use a number or barcode system so you can search through the database.

Another problem is that I have been through half a dozen strikers on half a dozen guns, I have new barrels, extractors,etc.


You say they file off serials like it's no big deal. The penalty for having a defaced firearm is much worse that that for a stolen gun, so criminals have pretty much given up that practice.

Filing out the barrel will NOT change the markings left on the barrel. You can compare the marks left behind to the grooves on a record. I can scratch the crap out of that record, but there will still be enough left to tell what record it was.

You are not mistaken, some U.S. states require the manufacturer to supply 2 fired cases for their registration program. These cases are supplied with the gun and if it is not required in your state, you get the cases to do what you want with them. The state agency does not test-fire them, the cases come from the gun factory. Again, problems with this program is that people like me , who change their extractors and firing pins, no longer can be traced to those fired cases on file.

Offtopic: Cali gun laws are crazy, I can go fight for Russia with all the weapons in the world, but here in Cali I can't even buy a freakin' pistol.


Ontopic: What the lawmakers need to know is what the criminals' reaction to this would be. If you want to stop a criminal, you need to think like a criminal, etc etc. They should know that criminals will either switch to revolvers or something else. Besides, there's plenty of guns on the black market, and nobody is gonna give them to the gov for setting up that the tracking device. Hell, I can get myself 10 pistols right now if I wanted to. That's the sad thing, criminals always find a way out for every law made. In London, guns are generally not aloud so now everyone is going around stabbing others.

Has anyone considered whether this may make it easier and not more difficult for criminals.

They will always find a way to stop this "imprinting" or even change it to fake a different guns signature.

When I say "criminals", I mean anyone who wishes to commit a crime including those who wish to "set-up" incriminating evidence too.

Also, would the same emphasis be placed on "ballistics" to show that a certain bullet came from a recovered weapon? It would have to be proven that a bullet still matched a gun wouldn't it?

With my skeptical mind, I also wonder if gun manufacturers who supply copies of said "imprint" from initial gun tests for recording purposes to some official body somewhere are not contributing to the "set-up" of any gun owner after a crime by tampering with evidence. If evidence was to be based more on shells and less on ballistics I'm sure this could happen.

I also think that the cost of this additional mechanism would eventually filter down to consumers.

What about revolvers too? Are they not semi-automatic? Pull trigger, bang, next shot ready to fire! No ejected shells.

All sounds dubious to me.

[edit on 31/5/2007 by nerbot]