What to do when you just cant leave. (city Survival)

Originally posted by SButlerv2
Don't get scared

If you could identify the pack 'Alpha' what would be the best way to take on a mutt in a hand-to-hand fight?

(As we don't have access to guns here in merry ol' England, I'll pose this scenario as if you were caught-short without a firearm)

most big cities have extensive networks of underground tunnels (sewers, transport, communications, ect...) which may be useful for shelter and getting around with out being seen.

it's always good to have a backup escape plan...

Originally posted by citizen smith

Originally posted by SButlerv2
Don't get scared

If you could identify the pack 'Alpha' what would be the best way to take on a mutt in a hand-to-hand fight?

(As we don't have access to guns here in merry ol' England, I'll pose this scenario as if you were caught-short without a firearm)

Keep in mind I'm no K-9 expert but here is what I'v done. This advise was gevin to me by a dog trainer from the US navy, so take it for what its worth.

The secret to getting lead away from a dog who considers himself ALPHA is to dominate him. Watch wild packs. what does the ALPHA do to prove he is dominate?

1: Stand tall, look dangerous. towering above is what they do to there own when they are proving there the boss.
2: Pin them by there throat to the ground, on there back and remember to tower above them while your doing it. Use a little pressure on there throat not enough to hurt just enough to restrict a little air. ALPHA is a mean SOB but also knows when to be gentle.
3: Snarl and growl and stare in there eyes. Staring into a dogs eyes is showing aggression. you must be more aggressive then they are. it is more mental then physical. try to physk them into thinking you are more dangerous and stronger then they are.
4: once the fight has started don't back down no matter what. if you back down you are dead. The whole pack will jump in at that point. as long as you are fighting ALPHA the pack will pretty much just watch.
5: Think what you want to tell them. While I work with the dogs I am constantly thinking in a ALPHA way in my head. "I am in charge you will back down". I think the thoughts are mirrored in my eyes or something. as I'm staring at them I believe they can read that I mean business and this is a fight they cannot win.

Ive used these techniques on some pretty mean dogs. Some rotts, pit bulls, one German shepherd , That shepherd scared me a little. I ended up with five stitches on my upper arm. Slippery little SOB. The worst dog iv ever taken on is the one I have now. she is a black lab boxer mix. She just woudn't back down. it took me about six months to break her alpha status. we spent many a night going back and forth, but I was more stubborn then she was now she is a perfectly trained dog who obeys commands without a hesitation.

LEGAL BLIB
This is what works for me. IT is for educational purpose only. If you try this and get injured or killed I take no responsibility you are on your own. you have been warned.

[edit on 21-8-2007 by angryamerican]

Cheers AA

I know that you're not to show any fear, it doesn't help that I don't understand dog body-language too well, guess that's another to add to my to-learn list

I was told some time ago that if you think you're likely to get into a dog-fight, to wrap a belt/jacket round your left arm (or vice-versa if you're left-handed) and 'offer' that for the dog when it attacks, then aim for the throat/eyes when it bites down on your protected arm...kind of like a karate block-and-strike move

...would that work??

[edit on 21-8-2007 by citizen smith]

Originally posted by citizen smith
Cheers AA

I know that you're not to show any fear, it doesn't help that I don't understand dog body-language too well, guess that's another to add to my to-learn list

Thats what they say, but I just know that I am human there fore in my mind I'm above them and They need to fear me. I guess I read there body on a sub consious level because I just kinda know what there thinking and Ive never studied, sep a few episodes of the dog wispier

I was told some time ago that if you think you're likely to get into a dog-fight, to wrap a belt/jacket round your left arm (or vice-versa if you're left-handed) and 'offer' that for the dog when it attacks, then aim for the throat/eyes when it bites down on your protected arm...kind of like a karate block-and-strike move

...would that work??

Sounds feasible but A rot or pit bull has one heck of a bite. Rag or not its gonna hurt, any thing you do with the dog is gonna hurt if you can handle that you can prevail over them. Remember you are human.
Get them on there back and make them stay they will scratch and bite and wiggle but if you keep them fighting long enough with your hand griping there throat eventually they will tire then the first fight is over. With the bigger breed dogs it usually takes more then one session to get the idea threw there head that you are ALPHA and will remain so.

Of course if you are trying to just get threw and not trying to get ALPHA status thats a different story. Use a big stick and hit hard. fast and high. if no stick kick hit and bite wildly make tons of noise and just try to beat the living heck out of them. Also a good connecting kick to a front or back hip or knee joint will dissuade the meanest dog. it just plane hurts them. Also if you find your fingers in there mouth you have two options. First grab the tounge and pull hard. they really hate that. or put your fingers into the roof or bottom of there mouth and squeeze. they will pull back and twist there head trying to break there grip. as long as you hold on you are in control.

In my opinion a better method is to carry a rock or something and watch ware there coming in to bite you. shove the rock or what ever you have down there gullet. They are protective of there mouths it will discourage them quicker in my opinion then offering up your arm as a sacrifice. Remember I'm not a professional just experienced and this is my opinion.

Worse then you taking on a ALPHA dog and there pack is your own dog taking on said ALPHA and his pack. Thats a whole other class of fight. Iv been to several S&R training sessions ware two stubborn dogs have gone at each other. its not pretty. Its hard to break them up but at over $12000 American for a fully trained and certified S&R dog you must break it up. If a dogs gets hurt in any bone especially the hips they are done no more S&R
So if you bring your little buddy on your jont threw the mostly abandoned city protect them as they would protect you.

LEGAL BLIB
This is what works for me. IT is for educational purpose only. If you try this and get injured or killed I take no responsibility you are on your own. you have been warned.

[edit on 21-8-2007 by angryamerican]

Originally posted by angryamerican
Use a big stick and hit hard. fast and high...

Or throw long and hard and shout "FETCH"??

LOL If only that worked. Dogs & cats for that matter in most ways are not to different from us. Meaning they want the same things. Food, shelter, security, and sex. Dogs espically will fight you for it.

You must be stronger then them. In my years of working with K9 S&R ive learned that dogs will mirror there owners. Because that is what they are designed to do. They are pack members who take on the values of there leaders for the sake of pack harmoney. So you either have to become there leader or make friends with there leader, or kill there leader.

What do people have to say as far as building a stronghouse or staying migratory goes. They each present their own respective risks.

A stronghouse would provide for defense and a rallying point for survivors. You could establish some type of local militia or small government body with leaders and citizens (this is on a very small scale btw).

On the contrary, your stronghouse will not be very useful against government troops or basically anyone with a stronger force than you. It would be ideal to conceal your numbers as best as you could. Remember like the sand people, walk single file as to hide your numbers.

Originally posted by xenya
What do people have to say as far as building a stronghouse or staying migratory goes. They each present their own respective risks.

In the UK the best, and only plausible option, would be to stay as we dont have a whole lot of 'out there' to migrate to unlike the US

Urban fortified communities can be created quite easily if the idea can be sold to the rest of the community residents...for instance, a street flanked by terraced housing, with say 20 houses in each terrace, can be blocked and barricaded with immobilised cars (after all useful parts have been stripped) at each end and nails driven into the tarmac street in front of the barricades to immobilise foot and vehicle attackers...the rear aspects of the houses can be fortified (as the houses face one another across the street) with back-gardens dug up to form a deep ditch defence filled with troi-de-lupe stakes and the excavated earth from the rear gardens used to create allotment plots down the central street area to grow produce...

...and don't forget the chip-pans to pour boiling oil from the ramparts too





[edit on 5-9-2007 by citizen smith]

There are a few places that come to mind for food in a serious situation where food and services are interupted.
First, I would go to where I work: it's a great big warehouse that employs hundreds of people. There are two huge break areas full of vending machines. Chocolate, peanut snacks, granola, etc enough to feed a family of four for at least two weeks. Drink machines, snack machines, and bathrooms with great big sinks and lots of pottys. (Also it has a defendable rooftop and some other valuable resources....)
What about food banks, hospitals, theatres, stadiums, colleges, etc for food sources?
In the case where travel is restricted the real trick would be just getting to the food sources to pillage.
In states like Utah there are Bishop Store Houses to consider...
Jules

reply to post by julesmac8


Hiding in a factory makes sense for a number of reason that you stated.
Now here is the but. It may be defensible from the roof but if its a big factory you will need a lot of people to guard it both from the roof and inside. Every place will including factory's will be luted eventually. So you can count on the fact that other survivors will show up to raid those vending machines.

In my opinion the best thing would be to raid those machines your self and hide in the little ugly house that I talked about in my OP. of course this as well as all my other post are just my opinion. I'm no expert just experienced and well read.

reply to post by angryamerican


AA Would it be feasible to block entries with delivery trucks? (and maybe disable almost all of the trucks?) There is a barbed wire fence around the perimiter and there is a fuel supply. One large delievery truck could also carry a lot of food and water and family out of the area.... (providing travel wasn't prohibited)
There are fire extinguishers and lots of first aid stations too.... something to think about.
Edited to add: there are also welders there... I bet I could modify the building. Maybe weld the doors shut...
jules

I've been wondering about how to protect your location from human intruders in a city environment.

Any obvious fortified defences around a location as described in the OP would scream-out that there is something being protected worth having. However, could you use the death&decay of an urban area as a defensive measure from casual inspection/looting?

Humans and animals use their sense of smell to guage whether food/environment is useable/edible or to warn of disease and contamination, so perhaps you could use this perception to your advantage to camouflage your hideout by making it seem like it's a den of pestilence?

A foul smell can be acclimatised to (I once worked a summer-vacation job as a garbage-recycler and I stunk to high heaven at the end of a shift, but the money was too good to be turned down and I got used to the smell real quick)

What would be the best way to go about it without putting your own health at risk?

Wow you guys have got me thinking now. There is no easy answer for this question so what I am going to do is come up with a list of good and bad about hiding out in a factory, and what I think would be a good way of defending them. give me a couple of days to gather the list.

Something else I've been wondering about using where I work: how to defend it with as few people as possible despite the huge size of the building. What could I use to electrify the fence? I'd try to make it as unpleasant as possible to outsiders. There is a garage with all types of things to service the trucks. Tires, tools, compressors, generators, water tanks, industrial tugs, miles of conveyor material, sheet metal, and a hazardous responder closet with oxygen tanks and all sorts of goodies. The more I think about what's there; the more appealing it gets.
Jules

Anyone ever turn on the kitchen light in the middle of the night to see 1 or 2 (15 or 20) cockroaches scurry into hiding? In a matter of a couple of seconds it's as if they were never there. It's easy sometimes to wonder if you even saw what you thought you saw. They (and rats) were here long before man ever arrived on the scene and I'll venture to say they'll be here long after we're gone. They are the ultimate survivalists. They adapt and they know how and when to lay low. The cockroach lives in the wall and survives. Let that same cockroach hole up in your refrigerator with a method to hold you off and how long will he survive then? He'd have to go regardless of what it took.

People become obsessed when they are denied something that they think they want or need. Generals have lost wars because they tried to capture more ground than they could hold. Why do you think guerrilla warfare is so effective that Al Queda is able to tree the whole world with so few people?

In a teotwawki scenario why would a true survivalist cast himself as a prisoner to the trappings of the society that put him there in the first place and set himself up as a target in the process? In anything less than a teotwawki scenario capturing and holding property that does not belong to you would be criminal.

That's why it's so important to learn all that you can now, before it's too late. Did you know that you can boil the inner bark of a willow tree to make a tea that is an excellent aspirin substitute. It contains salicylic acid, the active ingredient in aspirin. It also makes a good fungicide. That knowledge may keep you from getting shot trying to break into the drug store.

There's a fine line sometimes between planning to survive and conspiring to loot and unfortunately it's a little too easy to cross even with the best of intentions. If too many people use sit-x to give legitimacy to lawlessness then to what fate have we survived?

Please don't think I'm attacking anyone here. I'm not. You may see me cross that line next week in my posts. It's easy to do. If you see me do it, then please nudge me back. If I survive only to forget all the good that is still in humanity then am I really a survivor?

Don't get me wrong, though. If attacked, I'll fight and fight hard and there will be no rules. I'll only go on the attack if someone has created a circumstance for me that leaves no other viable options. I won't give them another Waco or Ruby Ridge. I know when it's time to scurry under the refrigerator and live to fight another day.

Semper Paratus welcome to the forum; I am pretty new here too.
Excellent points and thankyou for the reminder.
I have never head of the Teotwawki scenario before. What does it entail?
Jules

Originally posted by julesmac8
I have never head of the Teotwawki scenario before. What does it entail?

Its shorthand for "The End Of The World As We Know It"

...and I feel fine

reply to post by SemperParatus


I guess what you're saying is "become the cockroach", know when to take advantage of resources without the need of possession and know when to scarper and live for another day...a good Sun Tzu survival philosophy

If you watch footage of disaster scenarios, such as Katrina for example, you had people looting plasma-screen TV's and other forms of consumer goods that mainstream society has convinced us to 'hunt-gather' rather than real food and resources. This could be both a benefit and a downfall as you mention with your TEOTWAWKI scenario.

I've had the same thoughts as Julesmac about holing-up in an industrial setting and putting tools and materials to alternate uses....perhaps we should post jpeg images grabbed from Google-Earth or the co-ordinates of the sites that we each consider bolting to in an X-situation and give our evaluations of the pros/cons of each kind of site? that way we teach each other critical site evaluation and its possible uses....which, after all, is what these survival threads are about

reply to post by citizen smith

Ohh! Makes complete sense! Can ya tell I'm a total newb. Thanks!

Jules