UFO/ET discussion, nobody I know wants to hear it (NOBODY)

Here's my tuppence worth...

Yes, I too have had the somewhat debilitating experience of bringing up the subject of UFOs in general conversation and suffering under the supposedly rational verbal barrage that follows. It's amazing how people, who have little to no knowledge about how truly widespread and diverse the subject is, suddenly know for sure that its all BS.
And it doesn't seem to matter that the best cases have proffesional witnesses, either.

"Nah, mate. They're all smoking something!" followed by derogatory laughter is absolutely the funniest response I've ever heard to a serious subject...

My own dear wife, whom I love above anything else on this rock of ours, will sit nect to me on the sofa as I browse ATS UFO threads, looking out of the corner of her eye as I open various photo or video links, and smile wryly. I've caught her several times doing this and the response is always the same when asked if she would like to watch too.
"They're just blurry videos!" she says, incredulously, "why would I want to watch endless blurry videos?"
To this reaction there is little to be done apart from despairing, and threatening to withhold her chocolate supply. Were it so easy with everybody else...

I fully believe that without the benefit of a defining event, a fully documented sighting that is undeniably real, or the whole subject being taken on board by a high-profile, well respected media figure or organisation, the whole subject of UFOs is too heavily seeped in ridicule for it to be taken seriously by the general public. How many times have sightings been reported at the end of news broadcasts, with the catchline: 'And finally, it looks like we're not alone...' spoken over the d**m X Files theme?
If Russian jet fighters were allegedly spotted over the English Channel tomorrow, nobody would dare, or even think about, turning it into a humorous story. Can you imagine the presenter saying with a laugh; 'Well, it looks like somebody took a wrong turn when flying over Moscow today...'?
No, nor can I.

Ultimately, I am deeply upset that absolutely nothing has managed to pull the UFO phenomenon out of the field of entertainment, and into a mainstream, scientific spotlight. No matter how many times Roswell is made into another documentary, or the Discovery channel makes another World's Weirdest UFO Stories, UFOs will viewed by the great unwashed as a bit of fun.
Nothing real.
Nothing to be worried about.
Nothing to really think about.

Hey guys? You up there..yea, you in your spheres and cigars and black triangles? Do us all a favour will you?
LAND.

I've noticed something over the last few years regarding folk who want to talk about UFO/paranormal stuff and those who don't. In my search for like-minded folk I came across two or three folk who I'd really want to get away from to the point of switching off the phone or walking the other way when I saw them coming. The problem was these folk would talk non-stop, never let me get a word in, or if I did get a word in they'd dismiss it and move back to their own stuff/theories and the like. They are the most draining folk and have an effect almost like psychic vampirism, sapping my energy. I told another friend about them and he said they were "garrulous". After I looked it up in the dictionary I realised I'd been like that too and that's why I'd get the rolling eyed look when I brought up MY favourite subjects. I've totally calmed down now. As I've said before, thank God for the internet.I still can't help my excitement when I hear of a new sighting though but I try to keep quiet while my heart is racing. lol.

Moserius,
I am in pretty much in the same situation like yourself.I don't know what else to add here, beside the fact that you are not alone on your beliefs.
And i don't think that "we" are crazy.In fact i don't believe anybody to be crazy or delusional....just some of the normal people around us choose to ignore these matters.One can only hope that one day everyone of us will know the truth...or at least a part of it.

I know when people called me stupid or a moron and laughed at me because I talked about this subject I felt terrible but I learned with age that it isn't me. When I hear some of the things that these people say I think if only they knew how wrong they were.

I know what I know, I lived what I have lived and I try to share and look at it as if I am putting it out there and people can take it anyway they want.

I know who I am and I know why I am here. I know when I try to tell people to plant trees to replenish our oxygen people aren't gonna do it. Trees and plants will not only cure Earth they will cure her occupants.

I can write these 10 words... All diseases can be cured from the roots of plants..... and millions will die because.......

It's not the first time that I have seen people complaining of this problem of not getting any decent feedback when they try to speak to someone about UFOs.

Here in Portugal we do not have that problem (as far as I know, and I know a person who has seen a UFO and he does not have any problem speaking about it). If someone says he/she has seen a UFO then people will joke about it but if that person starts to explain the case then they will listen and will probably tell other people about it.

I don't know if this is related to the type of society, Portugal is a small country, and even in one of their biggest towns, Almada, where I live, it's common for someone to start speaking with a complete stranger about something that is happening, and even if they do not know the other person's name then they just call him/her "neighbour".

One of my experiences perhaps sums up the situation regarding the general public and disclosure.

I was talking about UFO's and ET to a person who expressed doubts. I was putting some of the irrefutable evidence when this person suddenly became distressed and said, "Stop it! You're making me think."

This is our problem. Most people DO NOT want to know. They are so wrapped up in their putrifyingly puerile existence, where the trivial is all-encompassing and the important is someone else's responsibility, that they vigorously oppose using the higher functions of the human brain.

We live in a world where criminals, sportspeople and professional liars (sorry - actors) are worshipped but where people who use that part of their person which differentiates us from animals are reviled with terms such as geeks, nerds and swots.

I urge all encounterists to tell their stories. Ignore the roarings of the beasts in human guise among us - those with intellectual wherewithal WILL hear you and listen. One day we WILL prevail - disclosure is guaranteed. When is the only unknown.

Originally posted by spliffy
i know a lot of people will NEVER believe in aliens because, from the moment we all go to school, we are TOLD that god created heaven and earth in 6 days and this is the only planet god created. so aliens cannot exist, it is impossible for them to believe that life does exist outside of their beliefs. i am not saying that this is the only or the biggest answer but it is one of them

and my question, on the god thingy
if god did create heaven and earth in 6 days and rested on sunday, has he just been kicking back since the 7th day. if he was into creating life, would he have been happy enough with just 1 experiment, the planet earth, i do not think so. i dont believe in religion and i respect peoples beliefs but so far i have never got a serious answer to that question.

That reminds me of a song written by Christian rocker, Larry Norman, called "U.F.O." The line I'm thinking of goes,:

"And if there's life on other planets,
then I'm sure that He must know
and He's been there once already,
and has died to save their souls."
[Larry Norman - U.F.O. @ 1973):

I personally don't know if UFOs are from outer space, from the future or another dimension; I just know that they exist. If God created the heavens and the earth in six days then He created them at the same time; at least that's my opinion. I have had three distinct and seperate sightings of UFOs in my lifetime and although I can't say they are from outer space or inner space, I can say that they are real, solid "things".

Not to say there haven't been many more reports that were misidentifications of other phenomena or naturally occuring events, like the planet Venus and Sirius, etc.; Just that there are still so many reports of sightings witnessed by large groups of people and photographed or videotaped to write all sightings off as bogus. I also think that the reason many more people haven't seen a UFO is because they are not looking for them. Their eyes are turned toward earth and themselves and they hardly ever look "up".

Anyway, just my take on the subject.

[edited to correct typo]

[edit on 5/28/2007 by Stormrider]

Im quite lucky as in i have a few friends who are open to discussion. One is as interested in ufology as myself, and the other is interested, though sits on the fence waiting for the "evidence" to appear..

I can say the phoenix lights footage and the recent uk sightings has swayed him more towards ufology in recent years. Who knows I may convert him yet!.

Also, my old man, like myself is an avid reader of pretty much everything from Ufo's, Nuclear fusion, physics, weather anomolies, generally anything we can get of intrest to read, well read it.. Hes not so much into ufology as myself, but he has some library and im constantly borrowing his latest books.

I was fortunate to be watching the STS117 mission live when the UFO was being discussed by mission control. I grabbed the old man and my mother to watch and they where both pretty amazed at what was being discussed on the nasa channel.

Still, there is no place like ATS for all us believers to come together and dicuss this topic thoroughly.

ATS is the only forum i participate in on the ufology scene as i find it the best and most informative.

To talk among others and speak freely on UFOs, politics, and other alternative subject's. Yeah right! Well, this is true to the majority.

This just happened to me yesterday (Memorial Day.) While with family and friends talking about the men and woman that died for our country I did state some of my opinions. I did nothing out of the ordinary as I was doing the same as they were.

I began to talk about the war, our government, and this May 9th directive that Bush signed, national IDs, and GPS. I explained that my privacy is almost non existent anymore. Some said...

"I have nothing to hide so I do not care if they can track me, or invade my privacy"

I was bewildered. I just sat back and listened to them.

Eventually I did start to express my concerns to the comments I was hearing. This is when a family member then said "Oh, here we go, the UFOs are landing and ready to probe us".

Now, why did this person have to go and say that? I rarely speak to anyone about UFOs!

I can understand where you are coming from. My debate yesterday wasn't even about my opinions of UFOs, and simply because I have mentioned it before I feel it was thrown back in my face and I was mocked.

It would be nice to speak freely one on one with someone and not have to feel like your in need of a sedative and a straight jacket!

More Serious, and the less serious among us:

Great thread - and right on the money. Everyone here is voicing a common theme, and the truth is, most of us are very selective with whom we confide our beliefs. Unfortunately, it seems too many folks out there are unwilling to explore even the idea of something that might 'rock their boat' a little.

That's the gist of it: Most people don't want to discuss or even imagine something to be real that may have an impact on their comfortable little existence. Ironically, these are the same people that can't get enough of Star Wars, Alien vs Predator, and Independence Day, etc. Hypocrites!

In my line of work, if I were to mention my interest in UFOs or the potential of alien visitation my career ladder would be doomed. I'd be labeled "the UFO-nut" and would not be able to have a meaningful discussion about ANY topic since at the first sign of a potential disagreeing counterpoint, I would be dismissed as the guy "out there" - so how can any of my other ideas be valid. Sad, but true. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

Although ATS is a wonderful forum to hang out in, keep tabs on current UFO/Alien-related events, express an opinion now and then, and share some camaraderie with like-minded folks (thank you ATS!), unfortunately it is not a perfect substitute for the instantaneous, dynamic, enlivened exchange you can have with another human being in a face-to-face conversation.

My solution to this 'missing element' has been to gradually build a small cadre of fellow interested individuals, friends and family members alike, with whom I can meet on occasion and openly discuss the latest UFO/Alien conspiracy/speculation news. We typically must slink off to a quiet corner or step aside to have our conversations, but it is well worth it.

A good way to find such folk is to find an excuse to have the subject raised at a party or family gathering, then gauge the reaction of those in attendance. For example movies and tv shows are innocent enough topics, so when, e.g., Star Wars comes up in conversation, just toss out, "Gee, do you think there are really beings/spacecraft out there right now??". I did this at a family wedding recently, and within twenty minutes, a brother-in-law approached me and asked if I believed it. When I said I did, the conversation took off, and since then we've spoken many times about it.

I found it a little disconcerting that some of the people I have the most respect for - church-going, brutally honest, kind-hearted, etc - are the LEAST likely to consider anything even remotely valid in the UFO/Alien arena.

So yea, ATS is great and I spend far more time here than in the "real world" discussing these issues - which is a disaster among humanity IMO - but alternatives do exist if you seek them out. I realize there are groups etc that you can join, but I prefer to avoid those since they tend to be dogmatic in their beliefs and unwilling to consider alternative views (some things deserve a skeptics eye). I find it far more enlightening to engage a random, equally intrigued individual than a bunch of "can't be anything but" -types such as those you find at a Greer $600 love-fest, or that circus in Roswell, NM each July.

In any event, thanks for another opportunity to share an idea or two with my ATS brethren, Mo-S...

Just curious - with all of the 'black ops', Area 51/Groom Lake, gov't think tanks and alphabet agencies out there that discuss this topic every day (you KNOW they do) - how did they get so lucky? Schuyler wants in: if he's successful I hope he remembers some of us, and brings us along for the ride or shares some insight on "the way"...

Oh - and don't forget: keep looking up!

[edit on 5/29/2007 by Outrageo]

I live in a world thats mainly in my head.
The reality I work in is not accepted or understood even when it is accepted.

The process of mental energy is very polluted in todays society.

The ability to be free of the war for the mind is not won by many.
The souls enslaved by society, TV and their own lack of interest or intellect or spiritual growth is proundly a large part of the population in todays so called educated countries.

I believe Alex Jones is right there is a war on for your mind.
The reason theres even a war in the first place is most people would rather have others think for them.

I feel the same way when it comes to talking about Aliens and UFO's. Luckily I have a few friends I can talk to openly about the subject and they feel the same. It's like religion in a sense. If no one wants to here about a certain religious group then they won't. There's nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. Alot of people have their set ways and comfort zones and they'll stay inside that box til death. I myself have never seen a strange ufo sighting or aliens but I know there has to be something going on. There's so many sightings and witnesses to certain activities and government conspiracies. I also believe that most sightings are just military test flights of aircraft we haven't seen yet or very often. I thank ATS and other web sights that give us the opportunity to speak about it and to listen to other peoples stories. I'll keep my open mind open and search for the truth whether it be ufo's, aliens, spiritually etc....
I have a big feeling and this is just my opinion that stupidity plays a big part in people living inside the box. The government likes it to stay that way for us if they can. Most of us have been groomed to think a certain way thanks to government schooling. If we all new the truth to what is really going on behind the curtain then we wouldn't need government.
Just keep talking about it and hope that other's will listen and some might even believe. Point them to the internet and websites that will teach them about the ufo phenomena and the technologies. Thanks for the thread OP

Well well, this is an interesting thread (thanks Lexicon!!)....


I have been the subject of ridicule all my life for the things I believe in, from the universe, to science issues....and most definately my "religious/metaphysical" views. I grew up in a small town for the most part, and I dont know why, but I felt that it just came with the territory. But when I moved to the city, I was hit by the ton of bricks.

And in my observations of the majority ( of course excluding those here, for we are obviously talking about it, and thats where the difference is..) I came to a basic way of thinking that seemed to carry with it a certain weight...

While most people would profess the opposite - humans for the most part are utterly incapable of thinking there is any material life form greater than us....and if we cant do things like time travel and intersteller anti gravity transport(boy is the joke on them) then nothing can. Humans revel in their ignorant assumption that they are supreme, second only to God, or the divine(whatever terminology is best). With this mentality of human civilization it is easy to see why they react the way they do; why they are for the most part easy to control(because their fundemental thinking is so easily predictable); and why technology progresses and leaks they way it does and logical reasoning and understanding locks up into circles...

We are in the age of Empirical Materialism. Prove it the say. You show them proof....they say no, no....I want to see it with my own eyes. Then they see it...and they think it was a hallucinagen, or the Devine, or something else.

But thats not really a bad thing, and I hold no ill will toward the likes of those people - we need evidence.

And so in what surely looks as though a losing matter of informing the populous as to what is going on, a beacon of opportunity arises. The opportunity of proving it the way man can best....by doing it ourselves for the world to see.

I think people would completely ackknowledge at least the POSSIBILITY and PROBABILITY of being visited from other places, if we ourselves could do such a thing. (As Im writing this a dark notion came to me...if we could do such things it would probably make cattle mutilations have more validity too...sooner or later someone would do it to a "space cow":lol

The numbers are with those that insist that the probability is there. There is no denying that. Are we being visited? We have been Im sure. Are we getting visited as much as we would like to believe? That one im not sure of. Its a big galaxy let alone universe. The possibility exists regardless.

So I dont disagree with those who have caused me personal turmoil in the past about such things. And I dont agree with them either.

It may be a bit extreme but when confronted by those people who do such things, I shrug, accept their views as subjective and dont press the facts anymore, I walk away with only one thought in my head, and my mind laughs as I hear it...

"The belief that we are the highest living organism in the universe, let alone the only....is the highest form of arrogance and ignorance that I can think of..."

Guess thats just how I deal with it now-a-days.

Thanks for letting me speak as always

Pretty good thread for not fighting and arguing with each other. That doesn't happen very often. It shows a commonality, I guess. My experience with other people is not that they are religious and therefore the subject will challenge them. It's not that they've been conditioned to not believe. It doesn't have anything to do with government. These people are not all stupid; they are not all stressed out surviving so they can't pay attention. They have plenty of leisure time. Many are very well educated and at least at some point in their lives have been exposed to a wide variey of new ideas and thoughts. It seems to me that they

just--don't--care.

They are not interested in the mysteries of the world. They don't want to "study" or do research. They'd rather read, if they read, romances rather than non-fiction. I sometimes think that if the aliens DID land on the White House lawn, get up and make a speech that the zero point energy devices are here and once we ramp up production everyone will have enough to eat, and in a generation 10 billion people will be richer than they ever imagined, and by the way, we're taking over Canada, that these same people would say,

"Yeah, so? (shrug) When I can buy one at Home Depot, let me know."

I feel like taking these people and shaking them and asking, "Doesn't ANYTHING excite you?"

Apparently not. Curious.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by schuyler]

good post schuyler
yes i agree, a lot of people "just dont care" and the question is why dont they care.
when i see the moon in day light, it AMAZES me, an awesome sight but if i say it to a friend standing beside me, they laugh and actually think i am joking

my daughter believes in aliens but if mr. alien flew past us and ruffled her hair, well lets say, she would be more interested in getting her damn hair looking good again but if he and his mates landed and got out she would collapse with fear. i dont push her into believing, she makes up her own mind (huh, what woman doesnt:duh. she does believe but just doesnt care about the matter and that annoys me. they could fly about our house all night long as long as they dont wake her, ah well..........she is in her late teens

i think some people are afraid to think about the consequences if alien life does exist, so it is easier to "disbelieve and not think of the subject"
i think some-one said a while back, bring the ufo subject up in your crowd and let the crowd have a laugh or what ever they want but the believers will reveal themselfs, it might take a while but they will stand up and united we stand lol

yes Moserious, you are totally right, there could be a million reasons why the little gits dont land and say hi and that question will puzzle me till the day i can actually ask them and yes i agree that all of the sightings and reports cannot all be mistakes or lies..

it will happen
spliffy

I have had my fair share of negative responses BUT it is possible to get someone thinking about the subject a little more positively if you break it out slowly.

I recently had a few new mates over, one of the girls saw one of my UFO books laying out in the open. I copped a pretty (well very, smirking etc. very rude IMO) strange look and quickly put it away. Situations like that aren't very nice.

I would suggest if you want to open up some dialogue you simply ask if the person believes in UFOs, rather than tell them all about this instance and that event etc.

If they were to say no and started making some negative comments, you ask them WHY they think that way. This is where I've found the conversation turns a little, because they can't even tell you why the idea is 'silly' or plain 'nonsense'. There are a number of scientific arguments for our point of view (size of our galaxy, number of galaxies, new extrasolar planets, water on Mars, etc - theres heaps) whereas the negative side of the argument is immediately flawed anyway, how are you supposed to prove a negative? Mind you, I wouldn't get into any elongated discussion with these kinds of things with most people but if you want to open up a certain person to the idea you can slowly show them little things over time. I would never use something such as Roswell as an example but certainly something like the Phoenix Lights, the recently posted Ohio documentaries (with the police officers), RAF Bentwaters/Rendelsham forest, Kecksburg (acorn shaped craft crash, I forget the correct spelling) documentaries, O'Hare, carefully selected NASA footage and a possibly a few more. Youtube/Google video isn't really a very good idea IMO. You really have to find a documentary or case study with multiple witnesses and hopefully some visual media (also audio, still got the Bentwaters recording floating around here somewhere with the transcript).

You don't even really have to relate them to aliens if you don't want to. Theres been a few people I've said like oh hey check out this wierd video/documentary I found. Then sat down and went through it and continued (maybe not depending on their reactions) to move onto other areas such as the possibility/certainty of ET life.

Its pretty amazing the amount of people that will admit to having seen a UFO if you breach the subject lightly and open mindedly.

Obviously people are going to roll their eyes (myself included) if you immediately burst into a rambling mess about Moon/Mars bases, reptilians, mind control, your favourite style tin-foil hats and the rest of the 'kooky' stuff. Sure, there may be something to some of those stories, but you have to address the concept of whether or not it's probable for alien civilisations to exist.

Theres so many ways to go about giving people the little kick start to start looking at things for themselves, although if I get right into it I always warn people of the amount of complete BS in this area.

There was one particular chick I brought it up with not too long ago that is very religious. When you logically compare the possibility of the existence of God to that of alien life (whether intelligent or not) it is extremely easy to make a powerful point. Having some knowledge of astronomy and evolutionary theory will certainly help. =).

Talking about these things certainly isn't something I do with just anyone, but with the right approach you might avoid the smirks and arrogance. If the person isn't really interested then they probably wont get into long discussions BUT, do you think they'll be as likely to smirk the next time they hear about something 'extraordinary'?

Yep, me too. I feel for most part 'alone' in this overwhelming quest for knowledge that I have had for about 10 yrs now. I speak a little about it to my wife who listens but most of it seem to go over her head and she gets confused though she has heard many stories and know of many family members who have seen UFOs or wierd lights over water in her home country of Puerto Rico...lots going on there it seems. I am in the airforce and work in Intelligence and believe you me, I stick to talking about air combat and targeting rather than bring up ANY thing off the record, classified or otherwise about UFO's...I just dont bring up the stuff i have learned over the yrs..and there's plenty. Despite having a TS/SCI clearance still doesnt give me the gumption to explore with leadership about the topic. Most people have NO clue guys and gals...they are just moseying about their day, robotic ......oblivious. Most expect UFO's to land and say, " Take me to your leader" like in the movies..lol Boy do we need something to really wake them up.

I have an active role in a few organizations in which one would think members and associates would encourage (or at least not DIScourage) the alien/UFO enigma - if for no other reason than to be better prepared, improve communication, facilitate esprit-de-corps, etc.

I actually did a little informal survey of my own recently to gauge reaction at a few recent organized gatherings. The three orgs were the National Military Intelligence Association, the Geospatial Information and Technology Association, and the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics. I hold Board Director positions on some of these so was able to slip in and out of sessions and conversations fairly innocuously. The result:

In all cases, most respondents first looked around nervously to see if anyone was watching or within earshot. If "the coast was clear" they would then offer a range of replies from, "My job would be at risk if I talked about that - whether I believe in it or not.", to "...my uncle (cousin, brother-in-law) says he saw one once but I don't know much about it."

A few offered some generally supporting comments along the lines of "...maybe we'll know one day", to "...the government is not telling us everything they know..." Similar platitudes seemed to be the norm.

One guy at GITA came right out and said I was crazy for bringing the topic up among all "the suits". The NMIA folks were the most resistant by far. The AIAA people seemed interested but clearly had their limits when asked to speculate. Mostly engineers, they preferred to think about stuff that can be measured with a ruler I guess...

Anyway - just thought you guys might find this exchange of interest. As for me, I would appreciate if some of you conducted your own primitive survey among colleagues in a group setting to test reaction and then let us know what you discover.

I have a feeling the results will be similar (except, of course, if the group is a Billy weird-Meir, Prophet Yahoo, or Greer love-fest - or that circus at Roswell each July.)

In any case - thanks for posting everyone - and keep looking up!

Originally posted by Outrageo
In all cases, most respondents first looked around nervously to see if anyone was watching or within earshot. If "the coast was clear" they would then offer a range of replies from, "My job would be at risk if I talked about that - whether I believe in it or not.", to "...my uncle (cousin, brother-in-law) says he saw one once but I don't know much about it."

I have witnessed this reaction as well. And I judge it this way. It's not that they fear ridicule; they fear talking about it--as if they've been told not to, the same way a person with a top secret clearance and experience in the intelligence field will shut down rapidly if the conversation drifts anywhere close to what they do. These guys are indoctrinated big time to not talk.

There is secrecy, then there's SECRECY. I've had a Secret Clearance myself. It's really no big deal. They investigate you pretty thoroughly, then say, "Okay, we'll let you work now." There are no lectures. (I worked for a contractor who worked with NAVSEA on Trident submarines.) But you get above just "Secret" and stuff gets complex really fast. I have this feeling (I don't know this personally) that the lectures are not just, "If you talk, you will be in serious trouble," but more along the lines of, "If you talk, you will disappear." That's the level of fear I see in people, It's not that people are afraid to lose their job or someone might slap them in jail for a few months. It's much more deep seated than that. Maybe I'm over-reacting. I actually hope so.

People of the Planet Earth, you have yet to realise that Intelligent Life is teeming virtually throughout the Universe in advanced civilisations and levels of developement that would completely defy description.
The countless Billions of Stars that appear in your Astronomers Telescopes are only a fraction of the overall magnitude of Infinite Creation. A Creation that had no beginning nor will there be an end as all Worlds, Stars and even Galaxies function in the orderly pattern of cyclic regeneration.

Human-kind is progressing on a journey of discovery, wonder and education. Along the way they will encounter many trials and tribulations but these will only serve to make them a stronger, more mature species. The day is not too far distant when the Human Race will be invited to join the "Galactic Family". When that day arrives they will "know" what they have always known since the time that Humans came into existance. Be not afraid, your time is nigh.



[edit on 7-6-2007 by VISITING]