Chinese writing '8,000 years old' found.

Chinese writing '8,000 years old'

If this writing is authenticated as such it would then predate Sumerian text as the earliest form of written communication.

bbc article

Chinese archaeologists studying ancient rock carvings say they have evidence that modern Chinese script is thousands of years older than previously thought.

xinhuanet link

The pictographs are on the rock carvings in Damaidi, at Beishan Mountain in northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, which covers about 450 square kilometers with more than 10,000 prehistoric rock carvings.
Paleographers claim that the pictographs may take the history of Chinese characters back to 7,000 to 8,000 years ago.

www.china.org link

Besides its large number, the rock art in Damaidi is also peculiar for its rich and varied subject matter, including mythological creatures, animals, symbolic designs, events and human figures, Zhou added.
Half of the cliff carvings were created during the Neolithic Age about 7,000 years ago, and the animal figures, such as sheep, horses, deer, dogs and tigers, were the dominant images in the petroglyphs of that time, according to Li Xiangshi, a researcher with the Cliff Carving Research Center of the No 2 Northwest College of Nationalities.

There was also this discovery of an earlier written text found in Pakistan which would also predate Sumerian and Egyptian text. Though this discovery was made a number of years ago.

bbc link

So-called 'plant-like' and 'trident-shaped' markings have been found on fragments of pottery dating back 5500 years.
They were found at a site called Harappa in the region where the great Harappan or Indus civilisation flourished four and a half thousand years ago.

"It's a big question as to if we can call what we have found true writing," he told BBC News Online, "but we have found symbols that have similarities to what became Indus script.

It is interesting that as more and more discovery's take place that the 'accepted view' of human history is getting pushed further back.
'Established facts' are often being put forth by authoritive historians as arguments against alternative historical view points being expressed, yet when the goal posts are regularly being moved it seems illogical to not at least consider some of the alternative views being tendered.

I've often felt that our view of ancient history is no where near as accurate as some claim and that there will continue to be some amazing discoveries.

Perhaps even the discovery of older civilisations previously unknown to modern man. We can only hope. Your thoughts?

cheers mojo.

holy chow yun fat batman my sceptic Radar is buzzing

isn't this a little like

In a December 2002 report in the Journal of Human Evolution, it was announced that a modern Homo sapiens skull from Liujiang County in Southern China has been tentatively dated to 139,000-111,000 years ago and that modern Homo sapiens teeth from two other sites in the same area have been dated to 94,000 years ago. If these dates are confirmed, it will be a significant blow to the out of Africa replacement model" of modern human evolution

we're still waiting for confirmation of that
as for the Damaidi petroglyphs
they have been known about for two decades
funny how someone just noticed these characters isn't it


this example of a figure squatting for some reason after a spicy bran and prune based meal in a ceremonial bovine toilet indicates which word it forms in not just chinese but many other languages that demonstrate a sense of toilet humour and its associated slang
roflmao

The rock art is spread over an enormous area and in some parts is difficult to access, there are also thousands of examples so, no i dont think it is too difficult to imagine new discoveries being made. the first discoveries were made in 1988, exciting new discoveries are still being made in Egypt centuries after other finds, what is your point.

Where in this article did they suggest that they are dating it hundreds of thousands of years in the past, your external quote is meaningless.

Do you have anything meaningful to add or are you just being inflammatory, in which case i wont bother answering any of your further posts. Or perhaps your just another apologist for the encumbent authority's who look disdainfully down on any original data that may come too light from this sort of research.
Enjoy your bran, your obviously in need of clearing some obstructions.

cheers mojo.

Where in this article did they suggest that they are dating it hundreds of thousands of years in the past, your external quote is meaningless.

only if you don't understand the territory
the Chinese like the Russians tend to announce discoveries that promote their nationalism rather than discoveries that are factually based
you seem to have a clear agenda of believing anything you see written down
have you read "war of the worlds"
you'd be terrified


btw my post criticised the subject matter
yours criticised me
have you read the code of conduct at this site or do you enjoy attacking other posters ?

Good find

What would really intrest me is how they dated the language to being 8000 years old? What techniques were most likely used and how failproof are they ?

Originally posted by apollyon_uk

only if you don't understand the territory

i'm willing to accept their data until it's disproven. Then i'll consider other data as it's provided, then make a decision on the facts placed before me.

Originally posted by apollyon_uk
the Chinese like the Russians tend to announce discoveries that promote their nationalism rather than discoveries that are factually based
you seem to have a clear agenda of believing anything you see written down
have you read "war of the worlds"
you'd be terrified

Sure and Western country's dont announce decisions based on political agenda's, hah.
Yes i have read 'war of the Worlds' and a heap of other science fiction, i also enjoy crime / mystery, biography's, and Ancient History, do you have a point.

Originally posted by apollyon_uk
btw my post criticised the subject matter
yours criticised me
have you read the code of conduct at this site or do you enjoy attacking other posters ?

Really, i'm sorry, so this was serious commentary then,

Originally posted by apollyon_uk
this example of a figure squatting for some reason after a spicy bran and prune based meal in a ceremonial bovine toilet indicates which word it forms in not just chinese but many other languages that demonstrate a sense of toilet humour and its associated slang
roflmao

mojo.

Really, i'm sorry, so this was serious commentary then,

I don't recall saying there was anything serious about this claim

Originally posted by mojo4sale

i'm willing to accept their data until it's disproven. Then i'll consider other data as it's provided, then make a decision on the facts placed before me.

Certainly a common problem. However, I'm not willing to accept their data as I know it's false.

The use of symbolic marks as a kind of early form of writing is well known and predates Sumerian and Egyptian civilization. Writing came from markings that designated "Water Coyote Clan" or "Clan fishing area" and things like that.

This early form of pre-writing has been seen in a number of areas, including Egypt (as early as 6,000 BC or so), India (same timeframe or a little earlier), China, and the Middle East. It's found on Harappan pottery as well.

Don't confuse this with pictographs and petroglyphs depicting spiritual beings or stories... some of those are far older. In California, there are ones that are over 9,000 years old -- but they are not a type of writing.

The difference is that writing uses "codes" to stand for words. Pictographs and petroglyphs are illustrations for stories that have been lost to us (I'm glossing over a lot of stuff here...that's the Very very simplfied version.)

Dating is done either by dating the rock varnish and/or art style and/or carbon dating some of the finds in the area.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Certainly a common problem. However, I'm not willing to accept their data as I know it's false.

Please provide your evidence that their claims are false Sun Matrix. Thank you.



Byrd, i understand that, part of one of the articles suggested that some of the symbols resembled written characters though.
We certainly have a lot of aboriginal rock art here that predates this also but it is not written or resemble written characters.
Thanks for your input.

[edit on 21/5/07 by mojo4sale]

please provide evidence that the chinese claims are true mojo4sale
thankyou

One of the most interesting books on my bookshelves is called "The roots of Civilization" and it traces the origins of writing and in it the authors state that there is nothing stopping primitive groups from developing their own system of notation before Sumer and Akkad, we just have no record of it or don't recognize it... it is only in the past few decades have archologists worked out how complex the Incan use of knots as forms of communication was.

Originally posted by apollyon_uk
please provide evidence that the chinese claims are true mojo4sale
thankyou

The links provided in the opening post are at least from archaeologists/researchers, what have you offered other than opinion.

At least provide a link debunking the claim as i have provided links from reputable sources supporting the claim. Not too much to ask is it if they are patently false you should have no problem finding your evidence refuting their work.

mojo.


(edit to add, thanks grover, i'll look that book up next time i'm at the library, do you know the name of the author?)

[edit on 21/5/07 by mojo4sale]

The links provided in the opening post are at least from archaeologists/researchers, what have you offered other than opinion.

I think you need to re-read these reports with a little dose of scepticism and not accept anything you see written in the news as gospel
the claims for the 8000 year old date come from one man

Zhou Xinghua, member of the International Cliff Painting Committee

who is neither a researcher or an archaeologist
he is the former curator of the Ningxia regional museum
in other words hes an administrator
Ningxia regional museum is an institution that makes all its revenue from these particular paintings
so its a bit like the curator of the natural history museum in london claiming that they have discovered something so far unknown to science in the museum basement and are planning to show it to the public (for a small fee)
they are making out like this date has been confirmed
it hasn't
and that these paintings have been proven as writing
they haven't
and that this source is proven reliable
it isn't

so until they actually present some solid evidence I really don't see how I have to debunk anything
because so far
all we've got is the word of one man who has a clear ulterior motive for saying this

most of the unbiased reports I have read on this also say

Similar carvings have been discovered in Greece and Austria.

none of whom are claiming anything like this at all
actually similar carvings have pretty well been discovered world wide

in future you should wait and see what later analysis says before jumping in to support a wild claim like this so vociferously
you're hanging your ass out in the wind and inviting people to kick it really which would be a real shame imo

Mate, maybe you need to read whats being posted, firstly in the OP i said,

originally posted by mojo4saleIf this writing is authenticated

And then i asked,

originally posted by mojo4saleYour thoughts?

Where exactly have i jumped in to support a wild claim, i even linked to a site where differing views were expressed. No where have i determined this to be definitive evidence. I stated IF and then i asked for comments from members, hoping for some discussion on the finds, what have you offered so far in the way of a meaningful contribution to the discussion.

From the second link.

said Li Xiangshi, a cliff carving expert at the North University of Nationalities based in Yinchuan, capital of Ningxia.

said Liu Jingyun, an expert on ancient Oracle Bone characters.

From the third link.

said Chen Zhaofu, an expert of ancient rock art with the Central University of Nationalities.

Li and his colleague Shu Xihong presented a report concerning Damaidi rock art at a seminar held in Beijing.

The third link contains differing opinions as to the age of the discoveries, so i'm not trying to push an agenda there.

Bold is my emphasis

Zhou Xinghua from Ningxia Museum argued that the earliest rock art in Damaidi dates back to the Paleolithic Age.
The conclusion was reached by analyzing the content, style, technique, colour and preservation status of the cliff carvings, and by comparing them with other excavated relics, Zhou explained.
But Chen Zhaofu argued that most of the carvings would be about 3,000-year-old.
Because they mostly reflected the culture of the Xiongnu or the nomadic Hun people during the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, Chen explained.
He also stressed that all the arguments needed to be proved by modern technology and in-depth research.

There are quotes from at least 5 individuals, not just one man as you state, and 1 of the individuals quoted suggests caution when reviewing these claims. So are you interested in contributing to the thread or are you just trolling. Either offer constructive criticism or discussion or go and annoy someone else cause i'm done with explaining myself to self styled authority's who cant be bothered reading. Btw this is a discussion forum which is why i posted this article to start with because i found it interesting.

For those who may be interested,
Could these characters, if that is what they are, be the precursors to the language found on the Shang oracle bones.

Link

The inscriptions on these bones tell us that by 1200 BC Chinese writing was already a highly developed writing system which was used to record a language fairly similar to classical Chinese. Such a complex and sophisticated script certainly has a history but so far we found no traces of its predecessors.

The Jiahu script dates to roughly the same time frame as the Damaidi rock art , so may also be related. Though the Jiahu script is mostly symbols that appear singly and are not thought to be writing they could be the precursor to what eventually became Chinese writing. These date to around 6500bc.

bbc link

The archaeologists say they bear similarities to written characters used thousands of years later during the Shang dynasty, which lasted from 1700-1100 BC.

But Professor Keightley did say the signs appeared to be highly "schematised" or stylised. This is a feature of Chinese written characters.

cheers mojo.



[edit on 21/5/07 by mojo4sale]

you're totally missing the point
only one person is saying there are chinese characters that are 8000 years old on that rock face
his agenda is quite clear
as is yours now

Where exactly have i jumped in to support a wild claim

you just did

Carl Sagan once saidExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

you just twisted the claims into your own evidence
I said

the claims for the 8000 year old date come from one man

could you address that point instead of creating a straw man argument to demolish
its not fooling anyone

So are you interested in contributing to the thread or are you just trolling. Either offer constructive criticism or discussion or go and annoy someone else cause i'm done with explaining myself to self styled authority's who cant be bothered reading

this is your second personal attack
i let the first one go
i have just reported you for this one
have a nice day