Utah allows guns on college campuses

Oh I’m saying is, if a normal person shoots and kills another human being, their not likely to get up the next day as if everything is normal. Their whole life will be changed. I’m not saying I’m against it people. I’m saying it’s going to be hard for someone to deal with it.

Is everyone here telling me that they can kill someone and it not effect them at all? Your not going to scream that you just killed someone. Your going to be able to just get up the next day and months and so on like nothing ever happen.

I don’t know about that. I don’t think you know either, just like I don’t. Yeah, I have a gun. Yeah, I would protect my kids, but I don’t think I could kill someone, damage him yeah, kill no. For me I hope and pray that it never comes down to me and someone else with a gun., cause my hesitation will probably get me killed.

Yes, I agree that a whole class room of people with guns might stop a crazy man with a gun. Yes, it can get out of hand. Yes, someone innocent might still get killed. Yes, the person who killed someone will probably have a time learning how to deal with what happen. Unless of course that person is as thoughtless as the crazy man to begin with.

Again, is everyone here telling me they can actually KILL another man and it not effect them in the slightest way? I said the slightest way.

Cause that’s all I am saying are you ready to deal with what’s going to be playing over and over in your mind afterwards?

I’m not saying we shouldn’t do it. I’m not saying for the good guys to get killed. I’m saying it’s not an easy thing to take another man’s life period. If you can’t understand that then sorry.

Yea guns in college is a really bad idea. The VT massacre was an EXTREMELY rare event (something that happens every 10 years rare) and it is very unlikely that there is eminent danger to anyone on a college campus.

Shar,

I believe we all understand what you are saying that taking a human life is a hard aspect to ever grasp ahold of and enjoy... unless you ARE CRAZY... you are right...

BUT....

If I watched my classmate get shot, and the person shooting was still shooting.. I really shouldn't post this because I could lose my carry permit, but... I'm not going to shoot to maim at that point... that is a threat of endangerment. Endgame. No do overs. no restarts... I'm too young for that... I have a son not even a year old... I haven't seen him walk yet (hopefully SOON!), I'll be damned if someone is ever EVER going to take that away from me... I will kill without regret a person whose only intention at that time is to kill me and everyone else he sees...

I do not see a fault in this... I see this as kill or be killed, and I hate to say it but when it comes down to (and please don't take this the wrong way, but see it as a clear cut example... I love you as a person(even though I don't know you) and could never harm you... unless you wanted to harm me....) I have a gun and you have a gun... both to each others head... you kill me or I kill you... I promise, everything you love and care about will make you pull the trigger first... that is the way the human pysche works, though you may be damaged, your mind will justify it in the end.

but also as a reminder the goal of citizenry armed with concealed weaponry is to maintain ALL life... I was trained never go for the kill shot... EVER... the reason (and the method that makes it extremely valid to avoid a kill shot) is that you WILL go to jail for a felony MURDER Violation... But if a person kicks in my door and comes in my home, then I will gladly shoot that person... as many times as it takes for them to stop intruding into my home... then I have to report myself to the police for discharging my firearm in an instance of life threatening self defense.(this is where the going to jail part is iffy on the one shot one kill aspect... if there in your home, game over for them.)

whew

Coven out(maybe.... =) )

Originally posted by coven
Shar,

I believe we all understand what you are saying that taking a human life is a hard aspect to ever grasp ahold of and enjoy... unless you ARE CRAZY... you are right...

Thankyou.

Originally posted by Shar

Originally posted by coven
Shar,

I believe we all understand what you are saying that taking a human life is a hard aspect to ever grasp ahold of and enjoy... unless you ARE CRAZY... you are right...

Thankyou.

No problem at all... I am always glad to bow down and admit I am humble enough to hold all life sacred


but if I got to.. I'll kick some booty...

coven out

Originally posted by coven

First things first this is NOT a flame... this is information spoon fed. Please try to swallow and digest it.

......

......

A ban on guns is not a solution.. it furthers the problems by taking the guns out of responsible citizens hands and keeping it in the criminals hands. How about this... Arm the responsible ones, require everyone to go through a psychiatric evaluation in lets say high school,(i would say a fairly emotional state in ones life, which tends to profile ones psychology for life) and those that fail or show signs of crazy are banned for life from gun purchases. and those deemed mentally sound (by professionals in that field not, a state organization) are allowed the right to carry a handgun at the age of 18. and at the age of 25 are allowed to take the concealed carry permit most states have.

..........

Lastly, you obviously don't like our country summing us all up as... well, basically as maynard would word it "Gun-toting Hip Gangster wannabes"... I don't say your buck toothed, with bad teeth, and look down your nose at everyone... so please show the same respect.

Don't assume I wear a belt buckle the size of my head, with two six shooters strapped to each side of that monster ro-de-o prize. I am a normal guy, I work with Computers all day, and I have a belt the loops just like yours. the entire mass of my belt is probably 1 lb, as opposed to those guys, whose average around 10 lbs. I like the TV shows Penn and Teller Bulls**t and Real Time with Bill Maher... as well as House and My name is Earl. I'm a normal person. And I own a Gun.

and I will never let you take it from me.

thank you,

*exhales*

Right well I guess you did not get my point. Police officers in France, Germany carry weapons other countries deploying more SWAT type teams. This can be seen in Ireland where several times the SWAT teams were deployed patrolling the streets. I am all for Police carrying guns, but not the guy sitting beside me on the bus. If you want to carry a gun then join the Police or the Military. I would like to see figures on the shootings sprees in Europe compared to USA, I bet it's still no where as high to the US. Simply because of lack of access to guns. And when I mean shooting spree I mean your so called responsible adults going nuts and shooting up. Not criminals, that's a different story.

And what is this waffle about "new world order" and "North American Union". Looks like the new world order has been in place for quite some time now. What better way to keep the masses quiet then to let them keep their toys? You are under more stricter surveillance than those in Europe.

Yes I sum up Americans like that because if you were living in Europe and you hear of a school shooting etc etc and you hear the NRA sending their condolences to the families and declaring that everyone should have been armed (which would result in a mass shoot out more like, how would the Police know who the shooter is if 30 people had guns?), you simply laugh your ass off and say "Not again!".

As I said a ban on guns IS the solution. Guns have no PURPOSE. If you spent your time on EDUCATING people instead of ARMING people you would not have this problem.

If you do need a gun to defend yourself then you must be living in a really dangerous and violent place. Otherwise why would you carry a gun?

sip

sip
I said a ban on guns IS the solution. Guns have no PURPOSE. If you spent your time on EDUCATING people instead of ARMING people you would not have this problem.

Oh sip, that’s not good.

If we ban guns, then only the really nasty, mean, killers will have guns.

See banning guns is only against the good folks.

Right now we don’t get robbed day and night in our homes mainly because the bad dude is wondering if that house has a gun or not. Take away guns and there you go. Only the bad guys would have them. I totally disagree that we should ban guns.

I say no to banning guns.

Originally posted by Shar

sip
I said a ban on guns IS the solution. Guns have no PURPOSE. If you spent your time on EDUCATING people instead of ARMING people you would not have this problem.

Oh sip, that’s not good.

If we ban guns, then only the really nasty, mean, killers will have guns.

See banning guns is only against the good folks.

Right now we don’t get robbed day and night in our homes mainly because the bad dude is wondering if that house has a gun or not. Take away guns and there you go. Only the bad guys would have them. I totally disagree that we should ban guns.

I say no to banning guns.

God I am glad there is a female on here to say what I'm thinking so I don't have to do it... *sigh of relief*

Originally posted by Shar

sip
I said a ban on guns IS the solution. Guns have no PURPOSE. If you spent your time on EDUCATING people instead of ARMING people you would not have this problem.

Oh sip, that’s not good.

If we ban guns, then only the really nasty, mean, killers will have guns.

See banning guns is only against the good folks.

Right now we don’t get robbed day and night in our homes mainly because the bad dude is wondering if that house has a gun or not. Take away guns and there you go. Only the bad guys would have them. I totally disagree that we should ban guns.

I say no to banning guns.

As I said, you must be living in a real dangerous place if you're scared about getting robbed day and night. I'm not scared where I am and we don't carry guns. Keeping guns just shows a distrust in your Police, a distrust in your government to protect you. Maybe you should try changing the Police or the government?

sip

Where may I ask you live?


Where is this place that has no crime?


Where is this place that officers show up before the criminals do?


Yeah, this world is FULL of bad people.

Originally posted by Shar
Cause that’s all I am saying are you ready to deal with what’s going to be playing over and over in your mind afterwards?

And again, I'd like to point out that it's not a matter of having to live with it when you're in the thick of it. You'll do what you have to to survive. You mean to tell me that you'd allow someone that has the intent to kill you and your children to just come in and do so, without shooting to kill?

No, I'd not like having to take someone else's life, but I'd prefer it over losing my own to said loon. Yes, in that situation, I'd take the offender's life without hesitation, as it's my life or his. You'd do the same I bet, given the circumstances being equal. It all comes down to how much is your life worth? Is your life and your children's lives worth more than the life of one crazy person on a shooting rampage? This will sound cold and maybe even a little crass, but yes, I think that one crazy person's life is worth less than mine and a whole classroom of other people as well. Do I think this hypothetical person should be shot with intent to kill? That entirely depends on the circumstances surrounding the incident. If they are as they were at VT, then yes, by all means, do what you have to to subdue him/her. Otherwise, he/she will kill you and everyone around you.

To put this another way, could you live with the fact that you allowed a man to survive, and kill 15 other people, even though you had a gun, but weren't willing to use it because you didn't want to hurt him? See, the situation just got a lot more murky...

Lemme know whatcha think.

TheBorg

I don't understand why people haven't figured out the pattern behind shooting rampages yet....

It is very simple, and people that advocate creating gun free zones are the cause of the dead college students last week.

As anyone in their right mind knows only snivelling mentally disturbed COWARDS open fire on innocent people like that. And you can bet a coward is going to go somewhere they know people aren't allowed to be armed.

This is the problem with rules like this, only sane logical and decent human beings follow the rules. If you disarm an entire building or an entire campus you create a free fire zone. The deranged morons that pull stuff like this are not dumb people, they know this. People are like water they follow the path of least resistance whether that is for good or ill, this is what we are seeing with workplace violence school shootings et cetera.

As to any sort of ban on guns or where you can carry them being a solution, the statistics plain tell you it isn't the case. To those who attempt to insist that guns are useless and people don't need guns, your willful ignorance never ceases to amaze me. Guns are a prime example of a pandoras box invention, now that they are here you will NEVER get rid of them.

And in the case of limitting civilians from having weapons, look what this has caused in the UK not only is gun crime at an all time high there, But you can now also be prosecuted and sent to prison for killing an assailant who is attempting to do you grievous injury etc. And the incredible naivete of expecting people to passivelly wait for the proper government protectors to show up is ludicrous. Even in the best areas in the world the response time of emergency personnel is measured in MINUTES. Emergencies however, are over in SECONDS!!

In conclusion I'd just like to wrap up by saying although I have nothing against guns personally and own many of them I can understand the wishes of some people that they would all go away. However it just isn't ever going to happen and all restricting law abiding citizens does is get PEOPLE KILLED. Criminals and the mentally ill will always find a way to acquire weapons as long as they exist (for gosh sakes with less than a thousand dollars worth of tools you can build a rudimentary gun) and further these same people will seek out areas where they know they can open fire without fear of being engaged in a gunfight. and these are FACTS not OPINIONS, this is how it works now and how it has and will always worked. You can attempt to argue that we should be able to trust our government to protect us or that people should be limitted from carrying guns in certain areas.

But with the exception of courts I challenge anyone here to provide real proof that firearm free schools or workplaces has saved any lives. The only enforcement of said procedures at 90% of places is a sign that says no weapons allowed. Whereas I can assure you that if you follow the epidemiology of rampage shootings you will find a vast majority of them have happened in areas where people are prohibitted to carry weapons. I mean the work place shooting thing started in post offices... which you aren't supposed to have firearms in.....

THink about it people and do some research, the people that tell you prohibition solves anything are getting our friends, family, and neighbors killed in the name of their political agenda. And then to add insult to injury they cite the killings they caused by creating gun free places for people to rampage in as justification for even more severe gun control.

THis is exactly what people mean when they talk abou the problem reaction solution paradigm of bad government. They are creating the problem of these shootings then using our own horrified reaction to push the so called solution of more gun control. Knee jerk emotional responses coupled with an appeal to logic (after all sane people really don't feel the NEED to carry a gun) to steal our rights.

TheBorg,

This is why I love it here on the ATS. People who are so strong and you can talk to them and get their opinions too. You ask such hard questions. This is why I DID NOT become an officer….. I’m thinking here. ……

You mean to tell me that you'd allow someone that has the intent to kill you and your children to just come in and do so, without shooting to kill?

Why do you have to ask such hard questions.

No man, I would not let someone hurt my kids. Me yeah. My kids no. I would protect my kids with every bit of fight in me. If that means I have to pull the trigger to do so, than yeah I would. I’m sure I’ll go to therapy for years to come after that though. If it comes down to a one on one me against someone else, no I couldn’t do that just to save my own life.

To put this another way, could you live with the fact that you allowed a man to survive, and kill 15 other people, even though you had a gun, but weren't willing to use it because you didn't want to hurt him?

Here you go again with another hard question. Can I copout and say I throw the gun to someone else who would use it. No, that wouldn’t be right to do that to that person, would it now.

Man you asked hard questions. I’m rambling here I know……….

No I guess I could not live with the fact that I let 15 other people die when I could of done something. You guys got me thinking I need to take a survival class or something. At least learn how to act quickly and not hesitate when something like this might happen. I hope and pray nothing like this will ever come my way.

Originally posted by Shar
Where may I ask you live?


Where is this place that has no crime?


Where is this place that officers show up before the criminals do?


Yeah, this world is FULL of bad people.

I live in Ireland.

There IS crime, I never said there wasn't.

As I said if you don't think the Police are effective then do something to change it.

sip

sip,

It doesn’t matter if the police is effective. This isn‘t about the police. Are you trying to tell me the police can get there before a killing takes place? I don‘t think so.

Originally posted by roguetechie
I don't understand why people haven't figured out the pattern behind shooting rampages yet....

It is very simple, and people that advocate creating gun free zones are the cause of the dead college students last week.

No I think you haven't figured it out. The pattern behind shooting rampages is in fact, ARMING PEOPLE! Yes it's true, give a gun to a civilian who should not have one in the first place is the cause! I really cannot see your logic behind having gun free zones would attract shooters. In the end most of the shooters die at their own hands so to them it would not matter if other people carried weapons and shot back. They know they are going to die anyway.

As I said, educate people not arm them.

sip

Originally posted by Shar
sip,

It doesn’t matter if the police is effective. This isn‘t about the police. Are you trying to tell me the police can get there before a killing takes place? I don‘t think so.

No but if the shooter was not allowed to have a gun then the killing would not have taken place.

And it is about the police. Carrying a gun to defend yourself shows a distinct lack faith in your authorities. If you don't feel safe in your own country then why the hell are you there?

sip

I support wholeheartedly allowing students with valid concealed carry permits to carry their weapons on college campuses. The State has determined that these people have the right to carry their weapons practically anywhere else, why limit it on college campuses?

I'm sure if there was a legally armed student involved in the VT massacre, far fewer would have died.

sip

your not thinking logical.

Everyone knows that you cannot get rid of all guns. The bad guys are going to have them no matter what. Again, it's not about the officers. There's no way an officer can read minds and knows where the crime is going to take place before it does. How old are you?

[edit on 29-4-2007 by Shar]

Originally posted by Shar
sip

your not thinking logical.

Everyone knows that you cannot get rid of all guns. The bad guys are going to have them no matter what. Again, it's not about the officers. There's no way an officer can read minds and knows where the crime is going to take place before it does. How old are you?

[edit on 29-4-2007 by Shar]

Jesus Christ I know you cannot get rid of all guns. How many school shootings in Ireland has there been? NONE! That is because we cannot easily buy a gun. Only police and military can hold weapons. Do you not see the point I'm making? In the USA I could most likely get a permit to legally buy a gun and then go on a shooting spree. We cannot do that over here. Stop the sale of weapons to civilians. It would be more difficult for people to acquire guns to do damage. It is simple common sense and it works. Look at Europe as an example.

And again I don't know where you got that comment about the police. I said that if the shooter did not have a weapon in the first place it would not have happened. Remove guns from civilians.

My age doesn't matter.

sip