Utah allows guns on college campuses

Originally posted by RedGolem

Originally posted by Shar

Even trained officers and military men have trouble when they have to take another man’s life. It’s not easy thing to do. I just hope each and everyone who carries won’t have to use it, and if they do their able to handle the consciences afterwards.

Shar,
I think you are making a good point here. I hope those points will be made when going through the process to carry a weapon.

As a citizen who has a concealed weapons carry permit;(and kinda regrets it) I can say this much, the gun safety classes, and the pyschological background checks(and drug use checks in some states) are extremely thorough. I nearly was denied for having been prescribed prozac as a teenager.

When I went to discuss this with the officer teaching the class I asked him why the big deal. he basically says that the class has a form of subliminal(not truly but more repetitive) messaging, in the wording they use, and they don't want people who are emotionally unsound to go through as they may not be capable of doing what the class is being taken for.

The words Self Defense, and Attacker are used so frequently it actually changes your perspective on the situation. If someone kicked my door in right now, I'm un-holstering my weapon and I am firing my weapon even with my door handle (never shoot to kill, shoot to maim; this avoids attempted murder charges whatever). No thoughts about it no repercussions, this #er deserved what he got...

Just like the kid in VT... If VT students were armed,(with carry permit training) he wouldn't have gotten out of the dorms... GUARANTEED.

just another example, which I'll get the details on from my work (i work on a political campaign right now) there is a small town in I believe Georgia, that requires ALL head of households to own a gun and have a carry permit. This cities crime rate dropped 77% within a year of passing this statute. if someone is actually interested I'll get the article link and post it later.

hell may be a good idea for the nation to get our holier than though American attitude changed.

Maybe I won't ride this guys ass going 90... If i piss him off I could get shot.

not the best way to live, but respect would at least come back to our culture.

Imho, if you need to take a life to defend yourself, you might be a nervous wreck and maybe even in psychological treatment for the rest of your life, but at least you'll be alive. And maybe few other innocent bystanders too.

Originally posted by coven
As a citizen who has a concealed weapons carry permit;(and kinda regrets it) I can say this much, the gun safety classes, and the pyschological background checks(and drug use checks in some states) are extremely thorough. I nearly was denied for having been prescribed prozac as a teenager.

Just like the kid in VT... If VT students were armed,(with carry permit training) he wouldn't have gotten out of the dorms... GUARANTEED.

These are the points I was attempting to make in my post.....
So people can think Utahs gun law allowing for carrying on the campus is extreme if they want to, but in todays world I beg to differ.

WHY shouldn't student feel safe and be ALLOWED to protect themselves
I find it 'weird' that in this day and age with the shootings that go on all to often at schools ANYBODY in their right mind would shake their heads in wonder at the Utah law....................it seems obviously smart to me.

Ok while the rest of the sane world ponders at the causes of shootings the USA are again taking action,

Politician 1 - "Hey what is the best way to stop more maniacs going on a shooting spree???"
Politician 2 - "I KNOW! How about we arm everyone else so no one would ever THINK of going on a shooting spree because they know someone will shoot back!"
Politician 1 - " Excellent idea!"
Politician 3 - "Hold on...but don't all shooters die in the end anyway?"

Am I the only person seeing sense in this? When a fire breaks out you throw water or sand to put it out, not petrol. Why must you lot be so shocked every time a shooting occurs and wonder why it happens? Have you ever thought of removing the guns? I'm no scientist or anything but I reckon if there were no guns, there would be no shootings, am I right?

And to those of you that are all "I need a gun for self defence! or It's in my consitutional rights!". Well in europe no one carries guns (aside from farmers and hunters) and they don't need them for self defence. The only shootings that do occur are when criminals get their hands on weapons, then the police can sort it out, it's their job. That is why you pay taxes.

I don't know maybe America is just full of mental patients waiting to carry out random acts of violence. I cannot see any use for someone (aside form miltary/police) to carry a machine gun or whatever the hell is on sale over there. What is the point? If you lot put in as much work in education as you do in your guns it would make for a much better society.

Oh and just because you're declared sane to own a gun does not mean you will be sane forever. It is easy to drive someone over the edge. It has happened I'm sure PLENTY of times in the USA.

A gun does not create a solution.

sip

(bring on the flames)

Originally posted by Shar
Yes, I think most American’s are responsible gun owner’s. That’s not the problem. The problem is, will they emotionally be able to handle what just happen afterwards.

Like I said even your train professionals have trouble taking someone’s life. It’s not easy to pull the trigger on another human being.

Sorry, Id rather deal with the reprocussions of shooting a madman after the fact than being dead!

Being able to pull the trigger to save my life, or someone elses? Not even a rational question. If that VT shooter was still alive, Id have not one problem walking up to him and shooting him point blank.

Originally posted by Shar
Yes, I think most American’s are responsible gun owner’s. That’s not the problem. The problem is, will they emotionally be able to handle what just happen afterwards.

Like I said even your train professionals have trouble taking someone’s life. It’s not easy to pull the trigger on another human being.

Shar, it will all depend upon the situation and the individual. I have seen people die from gun fire before, if they die quickly the only thing left is the corpse, but if they die slowing and spout words while they die, it will have an effect on anyone present.

Unfortunately in this society we live in, good people sometimes have to stop bad people, in a crisis situation. I don't like violence and would rather solve problem rationally, but there are those people out there, that can not rationalize, think logically, or even relate to people because they are pumped up with prescription or illegal drugs, thus making them irrational and not thinking on the same level as you and I.

Just my take.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by Realtruth]

College students are adults. If they are trained and legally have concealed carry permits, I think they should be allowed to have them at all times. In classes, in their dorms, etc.

Cowards like the one who shot up this campus would likely think twice before beginning their attacks if they thought someone other than themselves might have a gun in the group.

Our fear of guns is what is making us vulnerable to these psychos. The guns aren't bad, they are just tools.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by lonewolf37]

kids at college get drunk and get into fights. If every drunk college student had a gun it would be like the wild west. Students would drop like flies at parties every weekend. Its one of those things that might make sense on paper, but doesnt work out in the real world

Originally posted by steve22
kids at college get drunk and get into fights. If every drunk college student had a gun it would be like the wild west. Students would drop like flies at parties every weekend. Its one of those things that might make sense on paper, but doesnt work out in the real world

Nope...sorry Steve this theory does not fly. Your just spouting fear.
This ~IS~ the real world................and its working fine.
Utah's students have been carrying concealed weapons FOR YEARS and have gotten drunk and partied FOR YEARS, and your scenario has not happened yet. far from it. Even drunks have more respect for a foe that just 'might' be armed, and hence more respect is given.............they are not shooting at each other all the time, or so far at any time, yet......I canot even recall it happening once in the past 30 years......not to say it never COULD, but in the real world here its working out pretty good.


[edit on 28-4-2007 by theRiverGoddess]

ummm if I was at a party and someone busted out a gun bc someone hit them in the face or something, id be pretty scared. Who wouldnt be scared? Drinking reduces judgement, sometimes thats fun. Its not fun when someone with no inhabitions, who isnt thinking clearly, and doesnt comprehend the situation fully is holding a lethal weapon. Thats just as good as having a mentally instable person holding a gun, because people in drunken rages are NOT mentally stable. Are you saying you want crazy people having guns?

redseal
Sorry, Id rather deal with the reprocussions of shooting a madman after the fact than being dead! Being able to pull the trigger to save my life, or someone elses? Not even a rational question

I'm glad you think this. You should be an officer of the law then. That's the kind of people they need. I have heard officers talk, it's not easy when a gun is pointing at you and you know you have to take a life. However, since you can do it without any reprocussions then thats the field you should be in.

Realtruth,
Unfortunately in this society we live in, good people sometimes have to stop bad people, in a crisis situation.

I totally agree. I am glad there are very strong people like redseal above and thousands of others such as our Professional men and women who faces this all the time.

I do own a gun as my husband will always have one around us. However, I hope and pray I will never, ever have to use it. I just don’t know what it would do to me personally. I think I would be more than tore up over it. I don’t know.

I use to want to be an officer. When I was in teen academy they got me thinking when they asked the question, “could you really shoot and kill someone if you have too. If you came face to face with someone holding a gun at you.” It’s been over 20 years since that question was asked me and I still don’t know. Maybe that’s sad. I don’t know.

My husband thinks like you guys he would have no problem with it. However, me I just don’t know. I know my brother would also have no problem with it. He is an officer of the law, a captain and served in the Iraq war.

Originally posted by SharI do own a gun as my husband will always have one around us. However, I hope and pray I will never, ever have to use it.

This is the type of reasoning that martial arts instructors also use...You have the skill, you practice & practice...And pray you never need it.

So it still comes down the the point I've been trying to make...It depends upon maturity & responsibility. If a bar had a "check weapons" policy at the front door, then the combination of alcohol & guns would be greatly curtailed...Same thing, if a private party at someone's home did the same thing.

In a society where only psychos can get guns (illegally, if by no other way), then where's the defense of the poor, law-abiding citizens who wind up facing the psycho?

That's part of the reason for the Second Amendment...However the primary reason was for Citizens to be able to defend themselves from a tyrannical government.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

How about this, we will stick to our guns, and you can stick to your 3 digit numbers. When a physco comes in your area with a gun ready to kill whoever he see's, lets see which one saves lives first.

We will never get rid of our guns, because it is our first line of defense. Cops aren't there to protect us all the time. Cops are there to serve justice to people breaking the law. They aren't your parents, babysisters, or guardian angels, they are people who serve justice. When I guy robs a store, the cops find out the 5 W's and the H then catch the guy. Sure they are on patrol to stop crimes in progress, but they aren't the first line of defense. You are your first line of defense, and sometimes, the criminal only allows you that first line, because that second line of defense will be too late.

I plan to become a police officer, and I can assure you that I encourage self defense. Police aren't always going to be there, and shouldn't be expected to be everywhere all the time. If we are there, we will help, like any citizen should. If you call, we will try to get there as soon as possible. Until we get there, your life is in YOUR hands, and it is on you as to how you defend your life.

Grimreaper797,

Was you talking to me when you said this.

we will stick to our guns, and you can stick to your 3 digit numbers.

Cause if you were. HOW RUDE. Maybe, you need to go back and reread everything I said. I in no way said I was ever, ever against guns. Nor did I say I was against anyone carrying them. So your statement was way out of line.



[edit on 28-4-2007 by Shar]

Well, Grimreaper...Much in your post (but the reference to the "3-digit numbers still baffles me) sounds like a scene I remember in the third Star Trek movie: The Search for Spock.

The Bridge crew of the Enterprise are staring up in the sky, watching the flaming remains of the command-auto-destructed remains of the Enterprise, burning its way down, out of orbit.
Kirk: "My God, Bones! What did I just do?"
McCoy: "You did what you had to do, what you always do; Turn certain death into a fighting chance to live."

Personally, I couldn't put it any better than that.

What better reason to relax Gun Control laws back to their Constitutional levels? The Constitution framers (and the Continental Congress) left plenty of other documents behind to remind us what their meanings & intentions were.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

I think the poster meant by 3 digit ....9-1-1 the emergency number for the cops.
That's how I read it anyway. They didn't mean offense I'm sure.

Originally posted by Shar
Yes, I think most American’s are responsible gun owner’s. That’s not the problem. The problem is, will they emotionally be able to handle what just happen afterwards.

Honestly Shar, I'd like to be able to have the luxury of worrying about what I've done after shooting a lunatic, rather than being too dead to worry about it, because I wasn't armed. When you allow everyone to have arms, then at least it makes those looking to do stupid stuff such as what happened at VT think about the consequences of their actions. It'll make em rethink the process, since they know that the odds that they'll survive are very slim, and they most likely won't get who they want. The key here is that the only reason that he and all of the other school shooters got away with any of this was because no one else has arms. If the other kids had've had guns, the situation would never have gotten as out of hand as it did. The other kids would have just pulled 25 guns on him, and asked, "What's this? You planning on shooting someone?? I think not."

TheBorg

Originally posted by sip


Politician 1 - "Hey what is the best way to stop more maniacs going on a shooting spree???"
Politician 2 - "I KNOW! How about we arm everyone else so no one would ever THINK of going on a shooting spree because they know someone will shoot back!"
Politician 1 - " Excellent idea!"
Politician 3 - "Hold on...but don't all shooters die in the end anyway?"

And to those of you that are all "I need a gun for self defence! or It's in my consitutional rights!". Well in europe no one carries guns (aside from farmers and hunters) and they don't need them for self defence. The only shootings that do occur are when criminals get their hands on weapons, then the police can sort it out, it's their job. That is why you pay taxes.

A gun does not create a solution.

sip

(bring on the flames)

First things first this is NOT a flame... this is information spoon fed. Please try to swallow and digest it.

A gun does not create the problem. I'm not sure where in Europe you are, but you mean to tell me you feel safer with your police officers on the street only carrying tazers and nightsticks? Our second amendment right is the only thing that has kept this country free of total new world order domination. the North American Union is up and forming and I guarantee that if we allow it to occur, guns will be banned in america, and our freedoms will be completely lost.

If you live in England count the number of cameras filming you enroute to work, school and home. If you live in England look at your violent crime rate, which unless everything I have read is NRA disinfo, your officers are being overrun by true criminals because when it comes down to it... to the nitty gritty, the criminals can always get the guns; banned or not... the problem with banning guns,is that the only people who can have them are the most highly trained authorities (SWAT and the few other forces Europe allows to stay heavily armed) and the criminals with the most black market connections.

A ban on guns is not a solution.. it furthers the problems by taking the guns out of responsible citizens hands and keeping it in the criminals hands. How about this... Arm the responsible ones, require everyone to go through a psychiatric evaluation in lets say high school,(i would say a fairly emotional state in ones life, which tends to profile ones psychology for life) and those that fail or show signs of crazy are banned for life from gun purchases. and those deemed mentally sound (by professionals in that field not, a state organization) are allowed the right to carry a handgun at the age of 18. and at the age of 25 are allowed to take the concealed carry permit most states have.

you talk about violence in America. Though New York LA and Chicago are a part of America, these cities probably take up ohhh, 5% (rough estimate) of the landmass in the 48 continental states. Look at states like Utah, Tennessee, Louisiana (NOT NEW ORLEANS, PERMITS NOT ALLOWED IN CITY LIMITS) and you will see that these areas have an EXTREMELY low crime rate, especially when it is gun violence, or violent crime.

Lastly, you obviously don't like our country summing us all up as... well, basically as maynard would word it "Gun-toting Hip Gangster wannabes"... I don't say your buck toothed, with bad teeth, and look down your nose at everyone... so please show the same respect.
Don't assume I wear a belt buckle the size of my head, with two six shooters strapped to each side of that monster ro-de-o prize. I am a normal guy, I work with Computers all day, and I have a belt the loops just like yours. the entire mass of my belt is probably 1 lb, as opposed to those guys, whose average around 10 lbs. I like the TV shows Penn and Teller Bulls**t and Real Time with Bill Maher... as well as House and My name is Earl. I'm a normal person. And I own a Gun. and I will never let you take it from me.

thank you,
*exhales*
Coven Out

how about we make bullets cost a million dollars so people won't go on shooting sprees bc it will be too expensive? and people won't kill people for no reason bc it wont be worth their money?

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
This is the type of reasoning that martial arts instructors also use...You have the skill, you practice & practice...And pray you never need it.

So it still comes down the the point I've been trying to make...It depends upon maturity & responsibility. If a bar had a "check weapons" policy at the front door, then the combination of alcohol & guns would be greatly curtailed...Same thing, if a private party at someone's home did the same thing.

In a society where only psychos can get guns (illegally, if by no other way), then where's the defense of the poor, law-abiding citizens who wind up facing the psycho?


[edit on 28-4-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

Point 1 perfect explaination!

point 2... Just an FYI in the State of tennessee It is illegal (felony, even with concealed carry permit) to be within 100ft of a bar, liqour store, or night club. to the people saying it sounds good on paper... the best part is it WORKS TOO! As a resident of the Downtown area of Nashville I can tell you one thing (also as an employee on a local political campaign) that the shootings that occur in our nightclub/bar areas, are unlicensed unregistered weapons... 99.9%... the other .1% are the people who have permits and are stopping the drunk person shooting wildly at someone who has pissed them off. this is a good thing because this is when the responsible citizenry SHOULD be allowed to be a police backup.
I witnessed a shooting literally with bullets hitting the building I lived in(i have moved further out of the downtown area to a more suburb area now) I heard six shots, peeked out my window, and saw a guy shooting a gun at a car, well when I notice I'm not in danger I start to enjoy the show... I watch a retired police officer (required to have a carry permit) who happened to have his firearm in his vehicle, (I asked the guy afterwards[you should always thank heroes] what he was doing there... his response... right place right time, he was heading to a local blues bar, and when he got out of his car he heard gunshots... back to the main story) so i notice this guy lean into a white truck hope back out and shoot the guy twice (150ft at least apart) once in the thigh once in the shin. the guy falls down, injured but not lethally stops shooting and the police who just arrived came up from behind and arrested him.

Thank god that retired cop(now a citizen) was allowed to carry his handgun.

just and FYI the guy was shooting at the car because he had gotten jumped in a bar and went after the guys... got his gun out of his car and started shooting... he deserved what he got.


sorry guys just can't seem to keep it short on this topic.

Coven Out