Japan throws down the gauntlet: 'We want the F-22 Raptor"

There has been alot of discussion as of late about Australia and Isreal getting a crack at the F-22. The country that has the resources and will to do so, Japan, is putting increasing pressure on the US to release the F-22 Raptor for purchase.

Japan which is pressing the US to enter the F-22 for thier F/X program. SO far the US has indicated that upgrades to exisiting fighter designs would be submitted like the F-18 E/F or the F-15E with AESA radar. The suble threat is that if the F-22 fails to be entered, The EF Typhoon equipped with the advanced radar would be the best avalible and they might go that route. Japan is also pointing out thier willingness to have foreward deployed US bases and the like which are comming under increasing protests and calls for withdrawl by Japanese citizens.

Pressured by both and increasingly militaristic and yes belligerent China as well as North Korea, Japan feels it needs a stealthy frontline fighter to compliment its burgeoning missile defence system. The raptor would be an ideal aircraft for Japan to use in the offensive and defensive role. Its range, altitute, and sensor package would dramaticaly enlarge the defensive envelope around thier home islands. Also Japan, like the Uk and Australia represents little or no security risk in terms of the aircraft and its technology.

F-22 Tops Japan''s Military Wish List

Well Fred,

There sure is lots to consider here isn't there? There is so much in the way of politics and tactical advantages that the pressure seems to be coming from within for the U.S. here. Upgrades to the F 18 and F 15 would sort of be like bringing a knife to a gunfight!! However great they are, and they are great, they pale in comparison to the new technologies that the F 22 brings. Also, would the support and export of this aircraft make it all worthwhile as far as dollars go for the U.S. budget?? Maybe we could use those added export funds to pay for the things that we cannot pay for already...wait, who am I kidding! Since when does our government care about what a project costs???
Anyway, great post! I just wonder where the U.S. puts all the emphasis here. Risk the F 22 and its advantages in the hands of others or keep it to ourselves and put the possibility of negotiations and future military placement on the line???

Great post again, love to see what others think of this one.

Peace, Mondo

Well I can't say I trust Israel with this technology, but I think we can rest assured that Japan won't be giving this to the Chinese any time soon. So I'm thinking that perhaps a slightly watered down version of the F-22 for Japan wouldn't be too bad of an idea.

The Japanese would certainly love it, it would present minimal risk to the US, and it would help defray the costs of producing more F-22's for the USAF.

Uhh... to simply put it no, enjoy the F-15 and join the F-35 export club, but no F-22. As I said in another thread Japan's attitude concerns me. They seem more interested in just having the F-22 (because it's the best) and knowing it's full capabilites (and how to beat them) then they seem to be toward joint cooperation when it comes to confronting China. (These comments don't make me feel warm and cuddly). The F-22 represents billions and decades worth of R&D from US companies and tax payers. We cannot sell that technological edge free of charge and give away production secrets to Japan. Keep in mind what they did in order to compete with the technological lead US companies had in the 80's and 90's. So pardon me if I don't want Japan's aerospace and defense industry to get a free course in stealth, avionics and engine production technology at the expense of the US. I wont even mention the numerous leaks and compromises the US AEGIS system has suffered ever since we handed it to Japan. So again, this notion that there is no risk when it comes to technology transfer is BS.

If Japan wants a stealthy fighter they can get in line for the F-35, it meets and exceeds all of their needs, their wants concern me little. The F-35 is the best candidate short of the Raptor capable of filling their next generation fighter needs. If they persists on F-22 or nothing then they can get the Typhoon. Ensuing that in any potential conflict they will still be dependent on the US and that no US technology is at risk.

The F-22 should be like the B-2 and Ohio Class, US only...

[edit on 24-4-2007 by WestPoint23]

Nice post WestPoint.

How would you reconsider your position if a serious crisis erupted in east Asia, and war was looming on the horizon?

Japan naturally an ally.

Also, I interpretted their defense comments as to help them train against the Raptoresque next generation of fighters that will inevitably come from Russia and China. Remember, Japan's best fighter is the F-15A (which they call the J, but it is essentially an A2A dedicated Eagle). Perhaps they want to see how sorely behind it is now, and perhaps justify their need for an F-22.

I personally think they should develop another native multirole. Something along the lines of a stealth bombcat. With Japan's tech and budget this should pose no problem.

WP,

This is one area I would have to disagree. The tacit threat here is the bases in Japan and its a scratch my back, Ill scratch yours type of scenario IMHO.

This perhaps allow more US Raptors as well. And lets face it, keeping things "US" only is not sure way of keeping it secret. Yes we have spent alot of time and effort, but Japan is our principal ally in Asia and we need them as much as they need us. Lose the foreward deployed bases in Japan, and thier forces and you can pretty much kiss off any real power or influence in the region. Most scenarios of the US defending Taiwan against ChiCom agression revolves around Japan being the lynchpin.

While You mention the B-2 and the Ohio class, those are strategic systems as opposed to tactical and as you may well know, the UK has the key to the entire Ohio system IMHO the D-5 Trident.

Do you really think that the F22 is still uncompromised?
Knowing the amount of operatives placed in to the US Strategic comppanies/Military during the cold war i have a feeling that at least Russians know quite a lot about the F-22.

And if you can't trust your allies, what's the point of having them? USA is demanding more from its allies while giving less and less help out. Iceland is a prime example atm...

The big thing on the F-22 is the newer generation of stealth. That's the closest held secret out there. If that had been compromised then we would be seeing more stealth planes being built. A lot of things on the Raptor can be found in open source material, except things like jamming frequencies, etc, but the stealth materials are all rumors.

I know you must have noticed how fast Pak-Fa is moving ahead after a long wait, that translates to a solved issues with stealth technology... and Russians hate to re-invent the wheel..

The Russians are the ones that CAME UP with stealth. The F-117 was built using a mathematical formula that a SOVIET scientist came up with. And I'd hardly call finally going into production "moving forward fast." There were a lot of issues with that plane other than just stealth though.

I know that the geomatrical equations came from russia and as far as i know, the Pak-Fa design was ready and waiting for a few years, why put it into pre-production (prototyping) now? Maybe because they got a hold of needed material samples.

But this off topic, so lets return to Japan: Is there a risk, other indigenoius Japanese Stealth plane , in handing out F22 to Japan?

They put it into production because they finally got the design hammered out. They only started coming up with the design 5 years ago! That's a very quick time to go from design to production for anything anymore.

Or hey, maybe THIS had something to do with it?

The new airplane is being proposed to be brought from the concept design to a prototype series in less than 9 years. Historically, fourth and fifth generation fighters have not been created in less than 15 years. The Russian government has promised to allocate 1.5 billion dollars for the PAK FA through 2010. But the Russian Air Force is receiving less than 200 million dollars a year during this period, and will spend it primarily on other needs.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Not to mention that this is ONLY the prototype they're building now.

As for your other question, of course there is. There's ALWAYS a risk when you sell weapons to another country. The question is how MUCH of a risk, and if you're willing to take it. In the case of Japan, I would say that it's a low risk situation, and they will have to look at the benefits and weigh the risks.

I would trust Japan with it more than some other countries too. If it is sold at all to any foreign nation, it should be made available to Japan as well.

But I would certainly respect a blanket decision to not sell it to anyone if the technological secrets are deemed just too essential to risk giving to anyone.

What's the point of the F-35 then and it's not even out yet. The Raptor represents too many trade secrets. Japan is an ally yes but that doesn't mean you give them everything you got. Personally, I can't see why the F-35 is not as more sought after than the Raptor. It's got everything for way way less money and it's fully loaded.

[edit on 25-4-2007 by carnival_of_souls2047]

If we were going to sell the Raptor to another country, I would definately like Japan to take priority over Israel.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I would trust Japan with it more than some other countries too. If it is sold at all to any foreign nation, it should be made available to Japan as well.

Well Said

Modern Japan is very different to Japan of yesteryear...

There are still an awful lot of things that happen in Japan I don't agree with (lived there for a year back in 1999/2000), but allowing Japan to arm again is something that will strengthen allied interests in the east as a whole.

I might add that most of the Japanese that committed atrocities across the world in ww2 are dead and gone, and there ideals gone with them.

I don't think Japan would get involved in aggressive posturing against NK, but I do think it would make NK think twice about scaring the living daylights our of Japanese officials by firing missiles into the Sea of Japan...

I also think that Japan has been sealed away from the world far too long and it's about time we all made it easier for the Japanese to integrate themselves into the wider world.

Originally posted by Jack_Deth
If we were going to sell the Raptor to another country, I would definately like Japan to take priority over Israel.

Yeah right,
Actually, thats not the case. There are still some serious issues about the Japanese compromising some elements of the US submarine fleet via Toshiba leaking propellor technology to China - and then there is the Aegis leak by one of their staffers.

EG:Toshiba losing low cavitation propellor technology for submarines, and the recent example of a senior naval officer who had Aegis specs on his personal computer. His computer also had a bit torrent client and his partner was chinese.

Israel or Japan getting the Raptor

Well - I think they should just use the Nukes instead - It cost less and the enemy get a higher amount of human life loss.

You know - If Japan wants to wipe out Korea and china - It's easily done with a few nukes here and there. They could transport them in Taxi's, thread the cabdriver - that he will never see he's wife again if he do not "do as told". Offcourse the Government should hand of a nice sum of money to the cab driver so he would shut he's mouth for the rest of he's life. Or we should eventually kill him of - Which is a hard decision to make offcourse.

A few kiloTon of plutonium wouldn't hurt the economy - because it's basically there - the plutonium - So the Cab-driver would not be the big problem here.

The actual big problem is ofcourse that we have the russians - They are simply to proud to let such a thing happend without a possiblility of a full launch strike on EU.
And now that USA is running low on soldiers - They proberly be smart to use a few nukes also - spread out over russian - In the scale of the moon.

Japan throws down the gauntlet: 'We want the F-22 Raptor" Is a pretty sure indication of what their motives are.

OMG - what is happending to me?!

sorry.

I wouldn't object to Japan getting the F-22 - unlike Israel they are unlikely to sell the technology to the US's rivals. They're also not inclined towards the reckless use of force, at least not in the last 60 years.

The one deal breaker is they'll want to license produce them, which I don't see happening with the F-22.

But given the limited number we're buying ourselves, foriegn sales would cut the unit costs for our own fleet significantly (and possibly allow us to purchase more), and that alone is worth the minimal risks involved with selling to a country like Japan.

The Raptor is a very expensive piece of hardware, in order to fund it's procurement tough decisions need to be made. It will be sold overseas eventually anyway, economics make it almost inevitable.

As far as leaks go, some accidental leaks and minor industrial tech transfers don't come close to what Israel has done, outright selling our tech to the highest bidder.

[edit on 4/25/07 by xmotex]

Bring back the Shinto code and dissolve the arms cap on Japan. This would make China think twice about moving towards Taiwan and ake North Korea a bit edgey.