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Can an EMP take out a city, or more?

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posted on Apr, 23 2007 @ 10:58 AM
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I've always heard people say that an EMP from a nuke may cause more damage then the nuke itself. It frys anything electronic. I've also heard that you can increase the potential for an EMP by having it detonate high in the atmosphere. My question is, can an EMP really take out an entire city, or more? If so, how far could it reach, what would it effect, what wouldnt it effect? Would peoples cars die out, phonelines, flashlights? etc.

How much damage would it do, and would it really bring us to the stone age?



posted on Apr, 23 2007 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
I've always heard people say that an EMP from a nuke may cause more damage then the nuke itself. It frys anything electronic. I've also heard that you can increase the potential for an EMP by having it detonate high in the atmosphere. My question is, can an EMP really take out an entire city, or more? If so, how far could it reach, what would it effect, what wouldnt it effect? Would peoples cars die out, phonelines, flashlights? etc.

How much damage would it do, and would it really bring us to the stone age?


not kill people , but destroy the power infrastructure over hundreds or thousands of km's depending on strength and altitude of the blast

for further details pls refer:
en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 08:10 AM
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Theoretically, an EMP, if attached to a tunnelling missle and lodged at a sufficient depth beneath the surface (i.e., not immediately accessible by bomb squads) could be set up to continuously pulse and place the equivalent of a Giant's Footstep upon a city, crushing operations of all electronic devices.

That's theoretically. Of course, that's an advanced device that utilizes technology outside of the implosion/explosion method of generating a radially directed electron wave to create the electromagnetic pulse. The advanced device would require a regenerative cell or critical mass that is shielded and used as the electromagnetic well or source while an advanced battery or electrical source was used to trigger the waves. If engineered properly, the electromagnetic well could recharge the trigger mechanism.

This is all theoretical opinion on my part.

As far as I can see, what can be done today practically is probably no greater than a quarter-mile radius, one-time pulse. Still formidable, and if placed strategically, still potentially devastating. I'm not sure how far reaching the physics of an EMP device could eventually reach, but I doubt it would take it too far beyond a 1 mile radius, with the effects diminishing on an increasing scale the further out you go. Again guess work.

Also, if people were to be hit by one of these devices, the utility companies could probably place gates that shut down the system in the grid to diminish the effects for any subsequent attacks. As for protecting personal devices and computers...hasta la vista baby.

I believe research is being done currently in optical storage drives to protect against this effect as well as the effect of solar flares. Not to mention, optical drives would exponentially increase storage space.



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 05:48 PM
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EMP has military applications...disruption of C3I systems being one of the big ones. Against a target like a city, any device big enough to have *major* effects on the urban infrastructure (beyond things like glitching traffic signals and killing emergency services radios and cel phones) is going to have blast and radiation effects that are already going to do massive physical damage. I'll do some digging when I get home from work...I ran across an essay on exactly this topic by a gentleman named Stuat Slade that was fairly informative, and relatively free of mathematics. I'll see if I can a) find it, and b) get his permission to repost it here.



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 06:18 PM
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An EMP detonated at high altitude, in the right place, and high enough magnitude, has the potential to knock out the entire United States. Some things would be able to be restored fairly quickly, other things will take longer.



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 06:58 PM
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Im an electrician, an emp would do damage to electronics, and maybe some power sources. But as far as the power sources they would be turned back on as if a lightning strike had just happened. kinda like when your power goes out in a storm. An emp couldnt sever power lines, but maybe screw up the main grids for a bit, but thats all.

About the poster who said it could wipe out the power across america, no way.



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 07:02 PM
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Care to put money on that statement?


The pulse can easily span continent-sized areas, and this radiation can affect systems on land, sea, and air. The first recorded EMP incident accompanied a high-altitude nuclear test over the South Pacific and resulted in power system failures as far away as Hawaii. A large device detonated at 400�500 km over Kansas would affect all of CONUS. The signal from such an event extends to the visual horizon as seen from the burst point.

www.fas.org...

[edit on 4/28/2007 by Zaphod58]



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 09:33 PM
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Has there ever been a high altitude EMP test over land?

An explosion over a huge body of water like the pacific would effect any land mass near by.

There is know way a single explosion over the United states would kill all of the power. I dont care what the scientific data says, they have never tested an EMP directly over the united states.

There for they dont know.



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 09:46 PM
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That's a very arrogant way to think.

There have been tests in scale though, so I'm not quite ready to throw all logic and reasoning out the window on this one.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by Blitz
Has there ever been a high altitude EMP test over land?

An explosion over a huge body of water like the pacific would effect any land mass near by.

There is know way a single explosion over the United states would kill all of the power. I dont care what the scientific data says, they have never tested an EMP directly over the united states.

There for they dont know.


Have you ever looked at where they tested nuclear weapons in the South Pacific and compared that to where Hawaii is? The fact that they blew out power in Hawaii while doing tests is a pretty good indication that they'd blow out the entire US. But you're right. Bury your head in the sand until they test an EMP over the US and prove it'll happen. Screw scientific theories.



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 06:01 AM
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Since the energy is all line of sight, microwave energy then at low altitude I suspect the damage would extend to a comparable radar horizon. Perhaps 200 nautical mile radius. The blast would have to be at extremely high altitudes to extend much beyond that.

The reason that radar has a horizon is that the microwave energy cannot bend to follow the Earth's curvature.



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 06:27 AM
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Which is why the estimate is 300 miles over Kansas to take out the entire United States.



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 09:13 AM
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The argument, in the end, is not over the scope of the effect. It is the duration.

In a previous post, an electrician noted that the lights would go out, then back on again, to put it simply.

Yes, sensitive devices, smaller scaled microelectronics, would suffer more damage, especially the ones closer to the point of detonation.

No, the "widespread devastation and awesome power and destruction" of a device is hyped. I would like to hear from a physics expert on this one, if possible, but my guess is that the "blast" is the ripple effect caused by the expansion and contraction of electrons being pushed outward by the explosion.

Are there any other particles being used by this particular weapon? Are protons the particles that cause the disruption?

Lots of particulars here to consider before making sweeping statements regarding how terrible these bombs could be.

Also, as I've said before, I'm not sure we couldn't devise, if we haven't already, stop gates in our electrical grid that safeguard against any abnormal flux in transmission.

Suggestion to those worried about this...back up your data regularly and keep a duplicate laptop or PDA that you don't use somewhere in a closet in case you need to keep on going.



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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I think we have to look at two cases of EMP:
Nuclear and Conventional.
The conventional method utilizes explosive flux compression generators for the creation of a short pulsed strong electromagnetic field. Only electrons should be involved in this case.
In the nuclear case there are other particles and various wavelenghts of radiation making electronic devices suffer terrible damage. The soviets wanted to use Neutron bombs once to disable the electronics of western bomber fleets (If I remember it correctly).



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by DaSeitz
I think we have to look at two cases of EMP:
Nuclear and Conventional.
The conventional method utilizes explosive flux compression generators for the creation of a short pulsed strong electromagnetic field. Only electrons should be involved in this case.


and there are other conventional methods like virtual cathode ray oscillator(developedin USSR) and viracator that do not generate explosions ... or e-bombs , electric EMP bpmbs that do not explode:




"But I'm not aware that the Americans have perfected any electrically-driven e-bomb technology," he said.

"They have gone down the conventional explosive path because that's quicker and easier to do."

Electrically-powered versions need a very high voltage to generate the microwave output.

Researchers say the problem is not only generating that but controlling it and the associated heat that is produced.

But Dr Davis says the Russians have done a lot of work on such weapons and he has seen a photo of an electrically-driven, shoulder-held microwave weapon - resembling a portable SAM anti-aircraft missile launcher.

'Briefcase bomb'

It was claimed this could knock down an aircraft up to eight kilometres away.

These claims could be exaggerated, he said - but there was no reason technically why you could not generate a pulse of electromagnetic energy in a particular direction.

As long ago as 1998, a Swedish newspaper reported that its country's military had bought and tested a Russian HPM bomb.

The briefcase-sized device was said to emit short, high-energy pulses reaching 10 gigawatts - equivalent to the output from 10 nuclear reactors.

The German company Rheinmetall Weapons and Munitions has also been researching e-weapons for years and has test versions.

It is reported to be collaborating with Russian institutions in developing an HPM generator that could be fitted into a 155mm artillery shell.

The head of US defence company Raytheon Electronic System's directed energy programmes has predicted that there will be HPM weapons within five years.

A thorough study of the subject recently published by American think-tank the Lexington Institute concludes that such weapons will revolutionise warfare - but not just yet.

"Within the next few years, the first weapons systems built with directed-energy as their kill mechanism will be deployed," it says.
news.bbc.co.uk...






Schamiloglu first acquired the Sinus-6 from Russian researchers
cndyorks.gn.apc.org...


sinus-6 is a electric EMP weapon






Electronic Bomb Tested In Sweden

ClariNews

January 23, 1998

STOCKHOLM (AFP) - The Swedish military has bought and tested a Russian electronic bomb using high-power microwave signals to knock out the computers of jet fighters and nuclear power plants, the Swedish daily Svenska Dagbladet reported Wednesday.

"Russia is among the best in the world when it comes to manufacturing this type of electronic weapon," said Anders Kallenaas of the Swedish National Defence's Research Institute (FOA).
The high-power microwave (HPM) bomb is stored in a briefcase and emits short, high-energy pulses reaching 10 gigawatts -- equal to 10 nuclear reactors.

It has a range of a dozen meters, and larger models stored in vans can reach as far as a few hundred meters, according to the paper. The target can be destroyed without alerting anyone.

The tests conducted by the Swedish military have shown that the silent weapon -- which does not explode -- can have disastrous effects, especially if it falls into the hands of terrorists.

The HPM bomb can be bought on the Russian market for "several hundreds of thousands kronor" (less than 100,000 dollars) and has already been bought by the Australian military among others, Svenska Dagbladet said.

The bomb presents a threat to the Swedish military, in particular to the JAS 39 Gripen jet fighter that it is trying to export. It can also knock out the electronic systems of nuclear or electric power plants, banks, trains, or even a simple telephone switchboard.

The bomb has also been developed into a pistol which can be used to knock out a single computer or vehicle.

The Swedish military has reportedly considered employing trained hackers to combat the problems posed by the new technology, though this could have legal implications.

www.geocities.com...






The soviets wanted to use Neutron bombs once to disable the electronics of western bomber fleets (If I remember it correctly).



true and it is very diifficult to defend agaisnst as one such SAM will bring many fighteres down

[edit on 29-4-2007 by vK_man]

[edit on 29-4-2007 by vK_man]



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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Now, I'll be the first to say I'm not up to speed with the full extent of emps. But from what I understand it has the power to overcharge any power supply, and basically use that to fry the electriconic equipment. This means your cars electronics would die out, smaller electronics, televisions, phonelines, but also, it will most likely cause power generators and electricity producing facilities to overload and possibly explode. So the lights WONT come back on, because the thing that was producing power is no longer available.



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
Now, I'll be the first to say I'm not up to speed with the full extent of emps. But from what I understand it has the power to overcharge any power supply, and basically use that to fry the electriconic equipment. This means your cars electronics would die out, smaller electronics, televisions, phonelines, but also, it will most likely cause power generators and electricity producing facilities to overload and possibly explode. So the lights WONT come back on, because the thing that was producing power is no longer available.



What a lovely thought. Thanks for sharing.

Although, as powerful as it might be, the pulse would be anywhere from local to medium ranged, at the very best of its efficacy. Sure power supplies go down, but the infrastructure, larger power lines, switching equipment and such, would be able to recover or be repaired.

How do they fix areas struck by hurricane? Tornado? Lightning storms?

Just curious....



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
Which is why the estimate is 300 miles over Kansas to take out the entire United States.


Other then a load of fried satellites you won't get much from a detonation at that altitude.

The energy release might do some rather funky # with the upper layers of the atmosphere and cause much more permanent damage then an EMP would ever be intended to do.



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 11:28 PM
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Well see, that's what I get for listening to EXPERTS IN THE FIELD! Jeeze, I should have just asked you guys instead and completely IGNORED what the people that know this field say! Thanks guys for straightening me out!



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by newtron25

What a lovely thought. Thanks for sharing.

Although, as powerful as it might be, the pulse would be anywhere from local to medium ranged, at the very best of its efficacy. Sure power supplies go down, but the infrastructure, larger power lines, switching equipment and such, would be able to recover or be repaired.

How do they fix areas struck by hurricane? Tornado? Lightning storms?

Just curious....


maybe im just ignorant, im willing to accept that,

but

if all the stuff that uses electricity is fried who cares if we can produce power?

besides, all the computers that CONTROL the generating station would be paperweights after an EMP, so who cares if the generators themselves work?




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