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Israel, and the Future of US Politics

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posted on Apr, 18 2007 @ 01:32 PM
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I'm not a "thread starter" here on ATS/AbovePolitics. Instead, I like to weigh in on topics instead of start them, and try to maintain an un-biased, objective, and realistic opinion and attitude. I also don't like the idea of creating threads just to garner points, like so many tend to do. However, today I am in a quandary and just can't get my hands around a particular topic, so I thought I'd start a thread and ask, so here it goes -


I have never subscribed to the anti-Israel train of thought, and have, until recently, been a staunch supporter of the US policy of close alliance with Israel. Many believe that the US and Israel have been close associates since the modern incorporation of Israel in the 1940s. This is not true, however, Israel has essentially been the US proxy in the middle east since the 1960s, after the USSR abandoned its support.

Since the 1970s, anti-American sentiment in Moslem nations has obviously increased, and in the 70s, 80s, and early 1990s, it was useful to have a "foil" in the region to be the focus of the Moslem anger. Israel was the point of the American sword that the Moslems could impale themselves on, while leaving America itself relatively unscathed. In this capacity, they have served the US quite well. However, with recent world events, it becomes easier for the anti-American elements of the Moslem world to "reach out and touch" the US, in the most violent and vicious manner. The US is seen as a "paper tiger" and they're no longer afraid to "poke the bear". Israel's relevance in the capacity of "foil", is becoming more of a bane than a boon, and giving Moslems across the globe one more reason to despise the US.

The US/Israeli relationship has always been what is known as a "strategic alliance". For those that always wondered why the US had a policy of supporting Israel, its because a Strategic Alliance is a formal relationship formed between two or more nations to pursue a set of agreed upon goals or to meet a critical security need. So its simple, the US needed a locale to divert the militant Moslems to, and Israel needed support from a superpower to continue its survival.

So it brings me to my question. (And I'd preferably like to have either Israel supporters or those also on the fence on the topic to weigh in. I'd like to stay away from Israeli bashing, as I think its pretty childish.):

In today's world, what benefits can a US/Israel relationship still serve?


I am starting to think that, international politics being what they are (i.e. a marriage of convenience) it might now be time to cut Israel loose. However, if I am missing some of the key elements or nuances of the US/Israel relationship, please enlighten me.



posted on Apr, 18 2007 @ 07:02 PM
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Three things.

One:


Originally posted by Reality Hurts
I have never subscribed to the anti-Israel train of thought, and have, until recently, been a staunch supporter of the US policy of close alliance with Israel.


Why the change of heart? Do you feel like Israel has served its purpose and you are now hoping the US Government will throw them away like a used tampon? Or have you begun to see both sides to the misery, and have realised Israel isnt the picture of innocense many deluded people believe?

Note that wasn't an 'Israel-bashing' comment, but actually a direct question.

Two:


Since the 1970s, anti-American sentiment in Moslem nations has obviously increased, and in the 70s, 80s, and early 1990s, it was useful to have a "foil" in the region to be the focus of the Moslem anger.


It was America's unconditional support for Israel and its actions that caused that anger and resentment in the first place. Yet you say it like America's master plan was always to unleash unrelenting, viral, insatiable war in the Middle East.

Or was it, in your opinion?

Three:


The US is seen as a "paper tiger" and they're no longer afraid to "poke the bear".


It's not really a case of not being afraid any longer, its more of a case of them being sick of the constant $#!+ that Israel and the US heap upon them.

You see, you treat people like utter crap long enough, give them no rights, no international legal status, no protection from an aggresssive religious fundementalist state (Israel), call them terrorists when they defend themselves, fund their enemies, steal their land and homes, then sooner or later, the crap is going to hit the fan, for their enemies, and for you, the friends of their enemies.

Oh, and also...


Israel's relevance in the capacity of "foil", is becoming more of a bane than a boon, and giving Moslems across the globe one more reason to despise the US.


So I take it from this then that the answer to my question at the beginning would be that you hope Israel will now be discarded, as it no longer serves America? Wake up man... YOU work for the Zionists, not the other way around:

"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. Israel controls America and the American people know it" - Ariel Sharon.



posted on Apr, 18 2007 @ 08:46 PM
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Thanks for the response and sorry for the delay....long day.



Originally posted by Terran Blue
Why the change of heart? Do you feel like Israel has served its purpose and you are now hoping the US Government will throw them away like a used tampon? Or have you begun to see both sides to the misery, and have realised Israel isnt the picture of innocense many deluded people believe?

Politics are self serving. Their politics, our politics, your politics, my politics, ALL politics...they're all a matter of nationally self centered necessity and beneficial convenience. I've never thought of Israel as innocent, nor does any misery sway my opinion. What I have sensed is that the US/Israeli relationship is still beneficial to Israel and becoming a liability to the US. US support of Israel used to keep the militant Moslems confined to the region, attacking our interests there only. Now US support for Israel is in an international "casus belli" against any and all American interests across the globe. My opinion is only changing because the game itself has changed. I am reevaluating my opinion because many important factors have changed over the last 15 years, 6 years, etc.



Originally posted by Terran Blue
It was America's unconditional support for Israel and its actions that caused that anger and resentment in the first place. Yet you say it like America's master plan was always to unleash unrelenting, viral, insatiable war in the Middle East. ... Or was it, in your opinion?

The way I have understood it, from friends & associates (Moslem ones: mostly Persians, Arab Iraqis, and a Pashtun) and my own personal research on the topic, the resentment towards the West, and the US in particular, stems originally and primarily from the ages old Western ( British and American) policy of fostering a weak middle east. You see, with no "driving force" in the region, there is no clear and concise leadership. No clear and concise leadership means that no one in the region has the power base to really screw with the oil flow. Only one nation at a time. The one real threat was OPEC in the 70s, and the West fostered enough discord amongst them by courting some of the power players, that there hasn't been a real embargo since.

Which brings us to the other 2 real gripes that I hear- Courting the power players, and ignoring the Shia. The US backed Iraq when it was convenient, and he was an abomination to his people, the US backs the House of Saud, who treat their people abysmally, the US backed Mohammad Reza Pahlavi in Iran when it was convenient, and he was little more than a monster, and the list goes on. The US has supported all of these regimes who oppress their people. Plus, by backing either Sunni or apostates, they alienate the Shias, who take high offense to being treated as 3rd class people.



Originally posted by Terran Blue
It's not really a case of not being afraid any longer, its more of a case of them being sick of the constant $#!+ that Israel and the US heap upon them.

You see, you treat people like utter crap long enough, give them no rights, no international legal status, no protection from an aggresssive religious fundementalist state (Israel), call them terrorists when they defend themselves, fund their enemies, steal their land and homes, then sooner or later, the crap is going to hit the fan, for their enemies, and for you, the friends of their enemies.

Again i refer to my last response. The "US/Israeli Oppression" is more of a recent talking point and rallying cry. From the opinions that I hear from Moslems, the real oppression comes from US support of dictatorial and oppressive regimes. The Palestinian situation matters little to an ethnic Sindhi Leghari tribesman living in a family compound in Pakistan.




Originally posted by Terran Blue
...you hope Israel will now be discarded, as it no longer serves America? Wake up man... YOU work for the Zionists, not the other way around:

"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. Israel controls America and the American people know it" - Ariel Sharon.

Well, I think old Sharon had an overly grandiose opinion of his own viewpoint and of his nation's self worth. Plus, one comment does not a reality make.


Regardless, I hope I answered your questions and that we can still keep this from being an anti-Israel flame fest.



EDIT-

As a side note, I've noticed in a thread you've created that you're worried about American "extreme right-wing rhetoric aimed at Europeans" and how they may try to paint a picture of the whole EU thing. Don't do the same to Americans. Stereotypes are misleading, and that goes both ways




[edit on 18-4-2007 by Reality Hurts]



posted on Apr, 18 2007 @ 11:28 PM
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Israel has served its purpose in the past as a pawn for US policy and will continue to be this way as long as procedures are aimed at the highest standard. We don't need Israel, it is only convenient to have them as an ally.



posted on Apr, 19 2007 @ 09:22 AM
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I'm not trying to be contentious, but how is it convenient at this point? Since the 1st Gulf War, the US support of Israel has been a popular way to vilify the US, at least in the Near middle east and in urban area of the Moslem world. It would seem to be that Israel is a liability.

In this day and age, how does the US benefit from the US/Israel relationship?



posted on Apr, 19 2007 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Reality Hurts
Well, I think old Sharon had an overly grandiose opinion of his own viewpoint and of his nation's self worth. Plus, one comment does not a reality make.


Indeed, a reality it doesn't make, but an already existing reality it perhaps highlights. But thats possibly a perception thing. You see America running the show in the marriage, many of us see the Israelis clicking their fingers and the US jumping to attention, ready for orders.


Regardless, I hope I answered your questions


You did, thanks.


As a side note, I've noticed in a thread you've created that you're worried about American "extreme right-wing rhetoric aimed at Europeans" and how they may try to paint a picture of the whole EU thing. Don't do the same to Americans. Stereotypes are misleading, and that goes both ways


A nice move, but its been done to death and is a bit predictable. Please highlight for me where I stereotyped Americans.

And also, and the point to which you refer is made in regards the constant whining we hear about "Socialist Eurabia" coming from a very large, vocal section of American "politically aware" right wing people. It is not stereotyping on my part if they say it, thereby stating their position. I am merely asking a question of Europeans regarding a political veiw held by many in the US concerning Europe.

So please, let's not try and paint me as some anti-American European with an agenda. It's clutching at straws.



posted on Apr, 19 2007 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by Terran Blue
[Indeed, a reality it doesn't make, but an already existing reality it perhaps highlights. But thats possibly a perception thing. You see America running the show in the marriage, many of us see the Israelis clicking their fingers and the US jumping to attention, ready for orders.

Okay, in all fairness i can see why. Not that I agree mind you, but I can see how that assessment can be made


Originally posted by Terran Blue
A nice move, but its been done to death and is a bit predictable. Please highlight for me where I stereotyped Americans.

And also, and the point to which you refer is made in regards the constant whining we hear about "Socialist Eurabia" coming from a very large, vocal section of American "politically aware" right wing people. It is not stereotyping on my part if they say it, thereby stating their position. I am merely asking a question of Europeans regarding a political veiw held by many in the US concerning Europe.

So please, let's not try and paint me as some anti-American European with an agenda. It's clutching at straws.

Please don't be overly sensitive to my bringing this up. I noticed some of your comments and there seemed to be some residual vitriol in them. I wasn't trying to start an argument, I, if anything, was reaching out a hand after feeling that you might have a little pent up aggression. You can't deny that your commentary was informative, but also had a tone that sounded like you're used to having to defend your point of view, i.e. "...used tampon", "...being sick of the constant $#!+ that Israel and the US heap upon them", "...you treat people like utter crap long enough", "...Wake up man... YOU work for the Zionists".

Relax brother, I mean you no ill will. And lets not stray too far from the topic.




EDIT-

Interestingly enough, as an American, I have seldom heard any of this Socialist Eurabia" stuff. Granted, I don't subscribe to this "militant right wing" mindset that you mention, but I know plenty that do. Still, have heard little about it here, and I, for one, would support a strong non-NATO EU.



[edit on 19-4-2007 by Reality Hurts]



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