Evidence Against God, I Hope

Originally posted by Columbus
In mathematics, the last significant figure of pi is undefined. It does not exist. It is not 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9.

Ummmmm. Isn't this argument similar to the whole God/No God debate? You cannot simply come to the millionth significant figure and say "well I haven't found it yet so it is therefore undefined and cannot exist". I assure you that every significant figure of pi exists even after you give up on calculating its exact value and it is 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9.

Mathematics defines that 0.99999999... with an infinite series of nines is exactly equal to 1. The last significant figure of 0.999999... is undefined, it is not 9. This seems counterintuitive, but it is mathematically proven.

Sorry, 1 in math is always equal to 1 and not anything smaller or larger. The only way your concept works is if you decide to not define a significant figure like a calculator does and then you can work it backwards and get 1 again. Sheeeesh, atheists are lazy in there calculations.

1/3 = 0.3333...
3 * 1/3 = 1
3 * 0.333... = 0.999...
0.999... = 1

Simple. And for the same reason, an infinite god cannot exist.

It is not that simple. You did not carry out your significant figures to infinity to get the exact value. You are merely rounding something to the significant figure you are choosing. If you were a machinist, I would hate to see you measure the flatness of a granite surface plate converting millionths of an inch to fractions and using your significant figures so loosely. There are also an infinite amount of fractions as well as decimals.

Another reason that infinity does exist is because in counting numbers can continue + or - forever. No one can say that at some point they stop because it is undefined. Tell me at what point after a certain number in a series is undefined and I will concede that there is no such thing as infinity.

You cannot do it and neither can anyone else.

Originally posted by ben91069
Ummmmm. Isn't this argument similar to the whole God/No God debate?

It is a fact that infinity is not a real number. If the god you believe in has infinite properties, it is not real. This is a proof not an argument.

You cannot simply come to the millionth significant figure and say "well I haven't found it yet so it is therefore undefined and cannot exist". I assure you that every significant figure of pi exists even after you give up on calculating its exact value and it is 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9.

This is not mathematically true. pi is a transcendental number, it has an infinite sequence of significant figures. There is no last significant figure. It simply doesn't exist. You can calculate forever and never reach it. Never. it is none of the numbers from 0 to 9. It does not exist. If never being able to find something is not proof that something doesn't exist, then go ahead and accept that everything imaginable exists.

Sorry, 1 in math is always equal to 1 and not anything smaller or larger.

0.999... is not smaller than 1, it is 1. I even showed the proof.

Let's look again step by step:

a) 1 / 3 = 0.3333... with infinite 3's, is this not true?

b and c below are both 3 x a.

b) 3 * 1 / 3 = 1 easy right?
c) 3 * 0.333... = 0.999... with infinite 9's, and is this not true?

b = c, therefore,

d) 0.999... = 1

Sheeeesh, atheists are lazy in there calculations.

You mean mathematicians, not atheists. I didn't make this stuff up. These are mathematical proofs. You've obviously never taken a university level math course.

You did not carry out your significant figures to infinity to get the exact value.

An infinite series of 3's times 3 is an infinite series of 9's is it not?
If an infinite series of 3's is exactly 1/3, which it is, and 3 x 1/3 is 1, then an infinite series of 9's is 1.

You are merely rounding something to the significant figure you are choosing.

There is no rounding involved. Rounding requires you specify a number of digits. What number of digits did I specify? (HINT: infinity - 1 = infinity)

If you were a machinist, I would hate to see you measure the flatness of a granite surface plate converting millionths of an inch to fractions and using your significant figures so loosely.

Granite molecules are not infinitely small, plus they move. I also studied engineering materials at university. Did you?

There are also an infinite amount of fractions as well as decimals.

The same proof works with all repeating decimals, but 3 is one of the easiest to understand.

Another reason that infinity does exist is because in counting numbers can continue + or - forever. No one can say that at some point they stop because it is undefined. Tell me at what point after a certain number in a series is undefined and I will concede that there is no such thing as infinity.

Put it this way, counting to infinity is counting that will NEVER end. If you look for WMD forever and NEVER find them, you must concede that they do not exist. Iraq is not even an infinite place, but by your logic the WMD must exist even if you never find them.


[edit on 24-4-2007 by Columbus]

Originally posted by Columbus

Put it this way, counting to infinity is counting that will NEVER end. If you look for WMD forever and NEVER find them, you must concede that they do not exist. Iraq is not even an infinite place, but by your logic the WMD must exist even if you never find them.

Well, I understand the premise of your argument C, but as long as you theoretically do something forever and never find it, you are in fact doing something eternally. You are trying to disprove infinity and I am doing the opposite, but neither of us can be right because by definition we both must define the term infinity to be able to say where it begins and ends. Do you understand this?

You say, one cannot find it because it never ends, and I say you can find it because it never ends. We are like polar opposites when it comes to this.

Similarly, the whole God debate is the same, where you define it as being non-existent because you try to define it and cannot measure it. I define it as being real because I suppose I know it exists, yet I cannot measure it.

Does this make sense to you of why people can have faith when you do not?

Arguing the points do not convince anyone because it is just a matter of faith, which is something no one but the individual can account for.

PS to add:

Put it this way, counting to infinity is counting that will NEVER end. If you look for WMD forever and NEVER find them, you must concede that they do not exist. Iraq is not even an infinite place, but by your logic the WMD must exist even if you never find them.

That is an interesting philosophy that touches my belief system. The concept of creating a never ending war based on not an enemy, but evil itself is the statement by the image of the beast that the world is fighting armageddon, but that is another story. I guess you will have to just admit that finite time can exist within infinity but infinity cannot exist if there is just finite time. Why not just hope for the best Columbus instead of being a party pooper? The least common denominator is that if you are right then you have gained nothing but a short meager existence, and if I am right then your existence is eternal.

[edit on 24-4-2007 by ben91069]

Originally posted by Columbus
Eternal is infinite time. Infinite is not real. See the problem? See the problem? See the problem?

Man, you flip-flop more than John Kerry.

So now you believe it wasn't eternal?

Do you believe it just decided to pop out of thin air one day?

I don't understand you, you say it couldn't have always existed, so I guess that leaves you with the option that it just popped out of thin air one day.

Sheesh, talk about a leap of faith right there. :shk:

[edit on 24-4-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by ben91069
Well, I understand the premise of your argument C, but as long as you theoretically do something forever and never find it, you are in fact doing something eternally. You are trying to disprove infinity and I am doing the opposite, but neither of us can be right because by definition we both must define the term infinity to be able to say where it begins and ends. Do you understand this?

You say, one cannot find it because it never ends, and I say you can find it because it never ends. We are like polar opposites when it comes to this.

Firstly, infinity is defined in mathematics literally as undefined not disproved, and there are reasons for this, proofs actually. One is posted in the Faith v Reason thread by me where I explain about TAN(PI/2). This notion that "you and I" have different definitions is ludicrous. If you don't respect what all PhD's in Mathematics affirm, we have a fundamental break in communications.

Here's another example...
1/7 = 0.142857...
There is no 0,3,6, or 9 in the repeating decimal. IF the last significant digit exists it must be 1, 4 ,2, 8, 5, or 7. Which is it? The answer is NONE OF THEM because the last significant digit does not exist. Period.

I define it as being real because I suppose I know it exists, yet I cannot measure it.

This is irrational.

[quoteDoes this make sense to you of why people can have faith when you do not?
I once had faith. I know exactly what it means to have faith. It's about having comfortable beliefs that protect you from scary knowledge and facts. It's fundamentally about gullibility.

Arguing the points do not convince anyone because it is just a matter of faith, which is something no one but the individual can account for.

Faith is contrary to arguing. I can account for what I know, but faith is about taking a position whilst knowing nothing and even refusing knowledge on the chance it might hurt the faith.

...but evil itself is the statement by the image of the beast that the world is fighting armageddon, but that is another story.

I know, faith is your basis for belief in a "beast", but there is no justification for such a belief.

I guess you will have to just admit that finite time can exist within infinity but infinity cannot exist if there is just finite time.

Infinity is not a container that time exists in. You are just substituting your concept of God with infinity: since time exists within God, time exists in infinity. Time is a perception of change, not a physical thing.

Why not just hope for the best Columbus instead of being a party pooper?

I'm not just hoping for the best, my spirituality is rooted in my effort to change things for the best. I'm having a great time.

The least common denominator is that if you are right then you have gained nothing but a short meager existence, and if I am right then your existence is eternal.

Sounds like Pascal's Wager, which was refuted by the way. I used to admire Blaise Pascal after I read "Mind On Fire". But now I am sad because he died brainwashed.

Originally posted by Columbus
Here's another example...
1/7 = 0.142857...
There is no 0,3,6, or 9 in the repeating decimal. IF the last significant digit exists it must be 1, 4 ,2, 8, 5, or 7. Which is it? The answer is NONE OF THEM because the last significant digit does not exist. Period.

The last significant digit does not exist because there are infinite significant digits depending on the level of precision you choose.

You have proven infinity concept by saying it has no last significant figure.

By definition of infinite there cannot be a last digit. Significant digits are for convenience when dealing with large numbers in cases where it is not necessary to calculate to high levels of precision. By this proof, infinity does exist, just not provable.

You seem intelligent enough to see that math states that infinity can exist but it is not provable because it is a concept and not a tangible thing that one can count.

When you see that this idea is plausible, you will see why people can have faith without proof. As long as something is possible, it cannot be totally discarded.

You are talking about the very paradox that is essentially the division between the physical and spiritual realms.

Originally posted by ben91069
You say, one cannot find it because it never ends, and I say you can find it because it never ends. We are like polar opposites when it comes to this.

If you don't see the logical fallacy within your statement I must say you're an :bnghd:

Originally posted by ben91069
When you see that this idea is plausible, you will see why people can have faith without proof. As long as something is possible, it cannot be totally discarded.

Right. So why don't you believe in the flying Spaghetti Monster, The Pink Unicorn, Zeus, Dionysus (the person the story of Jesus was based upon).....

[edit on 25-4-2007 by VladTheImpaler]

Originally posted by ben91069
The last significant digit does not exist because there are infinite significant digits depending on the level of precision you choose.

Transcendental numbers have infinite significant digits period, they are not measurements. The level of precision you choose depends on your real world application, measurements, because in the real world, there is no such thing as infinity or infinite precision.

You have proven infinity concept by saying it has no last significant figure.

Infinity as a concept is an axiom, which means it needs no proof. See Axiom of Infinity.

Significant digits are for convenience when dealing with large numbers in cases where it is not necessary to calculate to high levels of precision.

Significant digits are a measure of real precision. Significant digits are not for convenience and such thinking does lead to engineering disasters.

By this proof, infinity does exist, just not provable.

That is because your thinking is wrong.

You seem intelligent enough to see that math states that infinity can exist but it is not provable because it is a concept and not a tangible thing that one can count.

Math states that infinity does not refer to anything. For example, in computer science, it is an unallocated pointer. Rather than a null pointer, there is no way to know what it refers to. The nonexistence of infinity has nothing to do with counting. A dumb person wastes time counting. A smart person uses math.

...why people can have faith without proof.

Gullibility is one thing, but it is truly foolish to ignore proof that contradicts your beliefs.

You are talking about the very paradox that is essentially the division between the physical and spiritual realms.

I don't believe in a spiritual realm. Infinity exists in concept not spirit. Many concepts have no form in reality. Like God. If the physical realm is reality, then the spiritual realm is fantasy.

Again, what this reveals is that the difference between you and I is knowledge, you lack it. If you want your faith to rest in Ignorance, stay away from the complex issues of reality. If you seek knowledge, your faith will be a casualty.