Evidence Against God, I Hope

Accutually the non existance of the omnipotent, kind, just god of the bible does not exist, with fairly simple logical arguements, that im sure many have already heard.

examples - Is it possible for god to create a boulder so big that even he cant move it. If he can, it proves that something can exist greater that god, and god is no longer "all powerful". If he cant he also is not all powerful because there are things he cant create

variation - Can god kill himself? If he can, then obvciously he is not all mighty, and immortal for he has the ability to kill himself. If he cannot, then there is an action he cannot do, therefor also not makng him all powerful.

Then the logic against bad things existing in the world - One of the arguments goes like this - If god were to look down and see the horrors of genocide occuring, in lets say Darfur, and he upon his throne, Is able but not willing to save the innocent people, then he is accutually a malevolent god. If he is willing, but not able then he is not all powerful. And he cannot be testing people for an omnipotent god would already know the thoughts, as well as the past, present, and future actions of any given person.

there are plent more involving about every aspect of god, but heres one expecially for the theists. Can you disprove any other god, Odin, Ra, Thor, Zues? If you can. than you can probably disprove your own god, if your willing to come to terms with that, and use your own logic. If you cannot disprove those other gods, then who are you to say your god is truly all powerful.

the only arguement ive heard against things like this, is that god exists outside logic, cannot be known, and cannot be comprehended - which to me seems kinda like something that doesnt exist. But once you give up locgi and reasoning you would also have to agree that unicorns, fairies, peter pan, leperchauns all exist and are no less likely to exist than god, because weve got plenty off books on them

I mean is it not odd that the original sin in the garden of eden was eating from the tree of knowledge. because gods a very easy thing to believe, of you dont know any better, and are too afraid to ask questions.

But this post might mean nothing to theists since "You cant reason somebody out of a belief, that they didnt reason themselves into"


please thoughtful arguement not rampant generalization, and flaming, just makes everyones team seem worse

Some very interesting arguments, and I would agree that the god presented in the bible is completely ridiculous and falsified. I feel that all major religions have a misconstrued understanding of god, which is often a duality concept where he is a man in the sky or some nonsense.

However, I am a firm believer in God as a whole. I believe that there isnt a duality version of god, rather that we are all god and everything around us is god. He operates through us, for reasons unknowable at this time. Singularity is the key to knowing God.

"the only arguement ive heard against things like this, is that god exists outside logic, cannot be known, and cannot be comprehended - which to me seems kinda like something that doesnt exist"

Just because something cant be understood doesn't mean it doesnt exist (blackwholes or even the universe is misunderstood yet it exists). As for leprechauns and fairies and whatnot, perhaps they do exist, but it is far more likely that these are fabrications of imaginative humans.

But none if this is why I believe in god, I believe because I can FEEL it. I see it, god is all around us and I have only to look outside to know this. God is a part of everyone and everything that exists, and therefore he flows through me and you. Awakening to this idea opens up incredible possibilities and phenomena that I thought didnt even exist.

[edit on 17-4-2007 by Vipassana]

[edit on 17-4-2007 by Vipassana]

My point with the fairy tale creatures that, if you have no substantial arguements for god, other than a book, then why is he any more likely to exist then the creatures of other books. Other than the fact that adults like his book.

And the whole seems like he dont exist thing, i was saying that the main defense against claims against mainly the Judeo-Christian god, they cannot be refuted, fall back on this unarguable premise where god exists, but has the characteristics of something taht doesnt. Which puts the non believer in quite the perdicament, which is why i added the last quote.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
My point with the fairy tale creatures that, if you have no substantial arguements for god, other than a book, then why is he any more likely to exist then the creatures of other books. Other than the fact that adults like his book.

And the whole seems like he dont exist thing, i was saying that the main defense against claims against mainly the Judeo-Christian god, they cannot be refuted, fall back on this unarguable premise where god exists, but has the characteristics of something taht doesnt. Which puts the non believer in quite the perdicament, which is why i added the last quote.

That's mainly why I was a non-believer most of my life. Christianity was so blatantly wrong that I felt like I had nowhere to turn. Islam or Judaism were no better. SO basically I was on my own. I started seeking out tangible spiritual experience, not words from a book, but something I could feel. After a while I became interested in meditation, and after practicing that I realized that spiritual experiences were not only attainable, but could be achieved on a daily basis. It took a while but after a few months of meditating I could no longer deny what I began to see and feel everytime meditated: God absolutely exists in ways that most people never even fathomed.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
examples - Is it possible for god to create a boulder so big that even he cant move it.

First of all the question is completely flawed. Moving the stone in reference to what? The Earth? The solar system? The Galaxy? Once the stone grew to the size of the Earth would we say that we lifted the stone with our hands, or pushed the earth away with our feet?

Questions like these are specifically worded to sound confusing, but when you actually draw them out on paper or study them you'll see that they are nonsense. Much like "Did you stop beating your wife?" If you answer yes then you admit that you did at one time beat your wife. Answering "no" implies that you still beat your wife. So you're stuck with a bad answer no matter what.

But the view of the Judeo-Christian god says that ,in reference to your post, we know "god beats his wife", relating this to my question, we "know" god is almighty, and omnipotent, so therefore it is a very relevant question because both answers lead to the same conclusion.

Which although i understand your point is different, because my question leads you to the same outcome regardless. And my question again relating it to yours, We already know the man beat his wife as metaphor to us knowing god has these powers.

smokey, you're going to get the ridiculous statement that god is beyond the comprehension of humans and that all of the points you bring up are completely unrelated to god.

how about this one: could god heat an object so hot that even he couldn't touch it?

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
examples -

Is it possible for god to create a boulder so big that even he cant move it. If he can, it proves that something can exist greater that god, and god is no longer "all powerful".

Yes. He could make it, and then it would be unmovable by him, but then he could will it away and it would disappear .

variation - Can god kill himself? If he can, then obvciously he is not all mighty, and immortal for he has the ability to kill himself. If he cannot, then there is an action he cannot do, therefor also not makng him all powerful.

Yes, to experience death I suppose. But after he 'died', he'd awake just like we do when we die soto speak, into the afterlife. But with God, he'd just die, then reappear in his place again. He's immortal but can go through death as an experience.

If god were to look down and see the horrors of genocide occuring, in lets say Darfur, and he upon his throne, Is able but not willing to save the innocent people, then he is accutually a malevolent god. If he is willing, but not able then he is not all powerful.

In order for free will to exist, God has to obey a strict code of no-direct-interference. If he directly interferes and helps the people of Darfur, well then hey, God is no longer a 'maybe', he's an obvious reality! You can see what he did for the people of Darfur, so no more deception, now everyone believes! Free will = gone. God cannot intercede, regardless of whats going on. He can, but he's sort of sworn himself not to..

Originally posted by runetang

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
variation - Can god kill himself?...

Yes, to experience death I suppose...

No. By definition, an immortal cannot experience death. Here again we see the brainwashed Christian confusing First Death and Second Death with real death. Real death is an ultimate end. If god could face an ultimate end, he would cease to exist.

Originally posted by runetang

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
If god were to look down and see the horrors of genocide occuring,...

In order for free will to exist, God has to obey a strict code of no-direct-interference.

Interference does not contradict Free Will. Schoepenhauer does. You can't want what you want. Someone interfering with you getting what you want doesn't change what you want.

If he directly interferes and helps the people of Darfur, well then hey, God is no longer a 'maybe', he's an obvious reality!

What's wrong with that?

Free will = gone.

No. Free Will isn't about believing it's about wanting. A person can believe in a future plague that will wipe out mankind without wanting it to be true.

God cannot intercede, regardless of whats going on. He can, but he's sort of sworn himself not to..

In other words, you, runetang have volunteered to suffer a long, painful death, and 50:50 chance of being sent to Hell on a whim, so that god doesn't look stupid.


[edit on 19-4-2007 by Columbus]

[edit on 19-4-2007 by Columbus]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
smokey, you're going to get the ridiculous statement that god is beyond the comprehension of humans and that all of the points you bring up are completely unrelated to god.

how about this one: could god heat an object so hot that even he couldn't touch it?

I was going to say that God is beyond the comprehension of athiests, just for you maddness - for you are my favorite athiest.

Seriously though, these arguments are futile because God is not matter. Matter is a tangible attribute of God - a likeness - but not the real McCoy.

So, when you make a statement about can God do something that he can't do, you are talking about stuff in a physical realm. The Spiritual realm is made of energy and consciousness and physical laws don't apply. So, yes God can die in the physical realm and can create boulders that are too big too lift. That is where we are now. In his realm those things are like statements from children as foolishness because they don't apply at all.


Let me add this edit:

Think of the two worlds; spiritual and physical. The physical world is much like a video game. It is run on a finite code or script if you will to arrive at the end of the game, whence we return to the reality that it was just a game. Outside of the game you can ask if the programmer or code writer could create a constraint within the program that the programmer could not overcome, yet the programmer is not in the game at all, so it is a bogus question. The programmer inserted his likeness into the game and as such was not able to do more than what he already programmed. He made no special allowances for anyone, not even his own likeness.

Once outside the game, there is no physical constraint that is too large to overcome, because one is always above the physical world.


[edit on 19-4-2007 by ben91069]

alright ben, how about these arguments:

could god create a being more powerful than itself?
could god create an object that god could not manipulate once created?
could god remove itself from existence?

and my favorite argument against omnipotence: could god remove free will?

Alirght ben you are still proving my point. theists have many ways and arguements that put god in a situation where there is no logical or evidence supported arguement that can be put against him. So why am i even here. Essentially what your saying is for athiests to disprove god, the only rule being that hes is immune to arguement. I think i go argue my wall, its far easier.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
alright ben, how about these arguments:

could god create a being more powerful than itself?

Technically, no. Because there is no such thing of being more powerful than already infinite power. That is like saying "infinity times 100". But if you prefer, God could create the illusion of a predecessor more powerful, but it would still be a part of God therefore still God, so the created being could never be more powerful than its creator. Confused yet?

could god create an object that god could not manipulate once created?

Yes. In infinite time and space, everything is possible including the inability to do something.

could god remove itself from existence?

In some way, yes. I thought about that one good and hard Madness, and I really could not answer that without knowing everything about what makes God what it is. But I believe that it is entirely possible for God to destroy itself in some way.

and my favorite argument against omnipotence: could god remove free will?

I don't believe in free will. If any will was outside of God then he could not be all powerful. Christians who believe in free will are doomed to be judged by their actions. Believing in divine will puts God in his rightful position. The world is just a stage Madness, but it is still interesting to be here even if it is all scripted.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
Alirght ben you are still proving my point. theists have many ways and arguements that put god in a situation where there is no logical or evidence supported arguement that can be put against him. So why am i even here. Essentially what your saying is for athiests to disprove god, the only rule being that hes is immune to arguement. I think i go argue my wall, its far easier.

But, there is no proof of God currently. I am agreeing with you. I cannot prove him or disprove him. That is why I don't get bent out of shape when athiests argue their case or criticize the Christian message, because a true believer should know that their Jesus and God is something that can only be approached with faith in something unproveable and unseen.

That is the faith talked about in the bible. If it were a matter of collecting evidence and proving the case, then salvation would be in the hands of men and not God. God chooses who is his and who is not. But, understand that whomever isn't chosen is not cast away into a literal hell fire. There is a new Heaven and a new Earth. It would be pretty useless to be sitting around in Heaven doing nothing but singing praises to God all the time, so the plan is to renew all of the creation and make it new again. Hell is actually a seperation from God, not some torment. Sorry, I am rambling off your topic here.

Originally posted by ben91069
...a true believer should know that their Jesus and God is something that can only be approached with faith in something unproveable and unseen.

Why must god be unprovable? Aren't unprovable claims suggestive of conniving?

If it were a matter of collecting evidence and proving the case, then salvation would be in the hands of men and not God.

How can knowing for certain that god exists automatically get you salvation? Okay, since you know I exist, I guess I have to excuse you from Hell?

God chooses who is his and who is not.

How can there be anything that is not god's? If I hold up this slice of pizza and say, god can't have this, is that justifiable?

But, understand that whomever isn't chosen is not cast away into a literal hell fire.

Thank you ben.

There is a new Heaven and a new Earth.

What's wrong with the old ones?

It would be pretty useless to be sitting around in Heaven doing nothing but singing praises to God all the time, so the plan is to renew all of the creation and make it new again.

Great plan, why not just fix the ones we got? Isn't it just as useless to throw out a perfectly good heaven and earth? Oh, and didn't anyone tell you that a god that needs constant praise is pitiful yet?

Hell is actually a seperation from God, not some torment.

I know some people who think these are still the same things. Funny, I don't feel tormented.

Just so you know Columbus, I am not going to fill my time with an endless debate about these things, because IMO it is neither here nor there if you catch my drift. It is entertaining to discuss, but there is no way for either of us to prove our point. You may feel differently, but I feel this way. Anyways, I will take some of your points and address them as best I can:

Originally posted by Columbus
Why must god be unprovable? Aren't unprovable claims suggestive of conniving?

God is unprovable by direct observation for a period of time known as the creation, figuratively the story in Genesis. He will not always be unprovable, but at this point in time he is. The reason for his mysterious disappearance is not about being sneaky, but rather to support the concept of true faith - that is faith without evidence. In this way the true believers can be elevated in hierarchy without any legitimate judgment from everyone else, because believing in something without evidence supports God's desire to draw a person to him rather than a person making up evidence to support their belief in God. In a scientific context, unprovable claims do not suggest any hidden agendas, just that it is not yet known.

How can knowing for certain that god exists automatically get you salvation? Okay, since you know I exist, I guess I have to excuse you from Hell?

First, I cannot explain to you why it gets you salvation. There is no rhyme or reason as to why we are saved. It is similar to the concept that some people live in poverty and some born rich all because of fate. No one can explain why some people are born into a rich family and some are not. The world is a deck of cards and so is salvation. The only thing I can say is that it is God's will that some are presented with salvation.

For the latter, I actually do not know that you exist. Your image and likeness to me appear as the spirit of the words you speak on here, and that is it. I am sure that with some effort you could present yourself in front of my own eyes, but then I would have every reason to believe that you could not excuse me from hell, unless of course, you actually did just that.

God chooses who is his and who is not.

How can there be anything that is not god's? If I hold up this slice of pizza and say, god can't have this, is that justifiable?

This is just figurative language not to be taken at face value. All is God's but there always has to be a pecking order or the universe would be stagnant. What I mean is God chooses who will be spirit and who will be physical; those who will be bound and those who will be free. One will be limited and one will not be. The greater will serve the lesser.

But, understand that whomever isn't chosen is not cast away into a literal hell fire.

Thank you ben.

Thanking me already like a theist would are you? Usually an atheist would wait for the evidence of what I have said.

There is a new Heaven and a new Earth.

What's wrong with the old ones?

Wars, famine, pestilence, inequalities, etc, etc, etc. Since we have an imperfect world and of course that pesky thing called death, I would say there is a lot wrong with the world. It is not suitable to live in, which is why all it's inhabitants eventually die.

It would be pretty useless to be sitting around in Heaven doing nothing but singing praises to God all the time, so the plan is to renew all of the creation and make it new again.

Great plan, why not just fix the ones we got? Isn't it just as useless to throw out a perfectly good heaven and earth? Oh, and didn't anyone tell you that a god that needs constant praise is pitiful yet?

The praise he requires is not what they teach in church. It is not half-hearted songs of praises and raising your hands out like you are a good little Christian, but that is another topic. That is, the plan to fix the current one, but not by human power. It is supernatural.

Hell is actually a seperation from God, not some torment.

I know some people who think these are still the same things. Funny, I don't feel tormented.

Perhaps you should reduce your morphine drip. Seriously, not everyone lives a pleasant existence, so your perspective of life may be better than others. Still, the world has all the facets of hell, including lack of a verifiable God.

Originally posted by ben91069
I am not going to fill my time with an endless debate about these things, because IMO it is neither here nor there if you catch my drift.

I didn't come here to debate and I can assure you debating is not what I am doing here.

...there is no way for either of us to prove our point. You may feel differently, but I feel this way.

My points are proofs in themselves. Convincing people is really the problem.

God is unprovable by direct observation for a period of time known as the creation, figuratively the story in Genesis.

Look up the Barber Paradox. God cannot create himself. The rest is irrelevant.

He will not always be unprovable, but at this point in time he is.

You only ignore the fact that god has already been thoroughly disproven. I posted a short list in the Faith or Science thread for you to continue to ignore.

The reason for his mysterious disappearance is not about being sneaky, but rather to support the concept of true faith - that is faith without evidence.

I am familiar with this concept. It's called gullibility.

...elevated in hierarchy...

Uh-huh. You above them. Do you really think like this?

...legitimate judgment from everyone else...

Uh-huh. Anyone elses judgment matters? Again, do you really think like this?

...believing in something without evidence ...rather than a person making up evidence...

Uh-huh. No evidence, made-up evidence, what about real evidence?

In a scientific context, unprovable claims do not suggest any hidden agendas, just that it is not yet known.

There are no untestable claims in real science. They are only exposed when pseudoscientists are trying to pull something. Pseudoscientists always have an agenda, to get their magical claims recognized by common people as legitimate science. They of course include all the Intelligent Design Creationists.

First, I cannot explain to you why it gets you salvation. There is no rhyme or reason as to why we are saved.

You already said belief automatically gets you saved. You were supposed to recite that believing alone is not enough, and accepting Christ as your savior is not enough either, and there is something else that no one can explain, and on top of all that God has to choose you. Then there's WiseSheep who knows who is saved and who isn't.

It is similar to the concept that some people live in poverty and some born rich all because of fate.

Why not just say fate and dispense with god entirely. There's a big difference between a person-god who chooses and random chance fate and ancestor guided fate and on and on.

The world is a deck of cards and so is salvation. The only thing I can say is that it is God's will that some are presented with salvation.

You die, stand before God, and he fans a deck of cards at you? Uh-huh.

Maybe you see where the "uh-huhs" are going?

For the latter, I actually do not know that you exist.

Study philosophy. You do have justification for believing it though, unlike for god.

I would have every reason to believe that you could not excuse me from hell, unless of course, you actually did just that.

Hell is a concept created to control you through fear. You are hereby excused. What more do you want? A certificate?

This is just figurative language not to be taken at face value. All is God's but there always has to be a pecking order or the universe would be stagnant.

Back to the uh-huhs. You do not see that "pecking order" has no need of god.

What I mean is God chooses who will be spirit and who will be physical; those who will be bound and those who will be free. One will be limited and one will not be. The greater will serve the lesser.

You are not very good at explaining what you mean.

Thanking me already like a theist would are you? Usually an atheist would wait for the evidence of what I have said.

I only thank you for not condemning me to hell. Christians usually take it as their own authority to judge me and hell is the place they sell tickets for.

Wars, famine, pestilence, inequalities, etc, etc, etc. Since we have an imperfect world and of course that pesky thing called death, I would say there is a lot wrong with the world. It is not suitable to live in, which is why all it's inhabitants eventually die.

People die because they are physical mortals. No physical think can be infinitely indestructible. The only way to eliminate death is to cease to be physical by direct ascendancy and remain that way indefinitely. Unfortunately infinity is not a real thing.

The praise he requires is not what they teach in church.

Uh-huh. God shouldn't require anything. Say I built a robot, did I build it to praise me? If I didn't need anything, why would I build it? If I built it for my pleasure, why would I be angry about it or destroy it? Especially if I am perfect! If I intend to destroy it, why would I give it self-awareness? Because I must be cruel.

It is supernatural.

Uh-huh.

Perhaps you should reduce your morphine drip.

You think I am on morphine because of what other people think?

Seriously, not everyone lives a pleasant existence, so your perspective of life may be better than others.

You must have me confused with someone else. I am not the one making condemnations or tormenting others with threats of hellfire.

Still, the world has all the facets of hell, including lack of a verifiable God.

As long as your making analogies, heaven also has all the facets of hell. Everything is perfect and rainbow brite, and there's nothing to do except praise some stupid god with a pitchfork throwing people into hell.


[edit on 20-4-2007 by Columbus]

I hope you are used to a warm climate.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The really sad thing about your thread is the last two words of the title. "I Hope", why would you hope that there isn't a god. Wouldn't you like to live for ever in heaven, or are you the type that already knows you would go to the basement?

By I hope, i was saying u hope its good evidence, i thought the title needed a little miore so i added that.

And no i reallly would likef or there to be a god, and that id lve in heaven for eternity, but theres no evidence and it dont make sense, so i cant rationally believe it.

Entertaining these thoughts of 'what if God could do this or that', within God's Omnicience, reveals mankinds' ignorance as to his beliefs concerning what 'may or may not be true'; not only in the human logical sense, but even logically within a Supreme beings mind.

To 'suppose' and, 'exact' an answer for 'God', would be blasphemous to some.

That would be the fervent response of religious nutbars...IMO.

To me? How do I ask these questions...

I see from all my experience and otherwise, IMO, there was a good-hearted entity, that had 'seeded' this planet, a long time ago; along side other entities.

This 'good-hearted' entity has 'bestown' upon us 'moral convictions' in order to establish its' reign upon this earth and provide a 'justafiable and peaceable living arrangement with others.

I'm not going to provide examples of this.
Any links will definately stray this thread. IMO

But I will say this: (look at my signature)

If you have a religion...don't force it down our gullets.
If you have a faith, remember this poem:
Desiderata

It's not so much WHAT we say, but HOW we say things