CNN: Dramatic increase in Army desertions

I'd tell them to shove the signed piece of paper down their throats.
You can call me any nasty words you want, like traitor, coward, dishonorable, anything! At least I can go to sleep at night knowing that i'm not involved in the murder of innocent civilians and self created "terrorist" over a botched war.
Deceit and lies must be the new American values because we're willing to start wars in their honor and we're willing to condemn those who dont submit to their pressure.
Our government created that mess over there. If its so important to them, let them sort it out.

[edit on 17-4-2007 by xEphon]

Unfortunately what sets the west apart from the rest of the world is its strong belief in the rule of law. Law developed by people for people. A contract is a contract, regardless of what the circumstances are. He signed, he must do his duty.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole war in iraq is balogna. But desertion? Land of the brave? C'mon. At least uphold your own damn motto.

It is a shame, because too many soldiers in the US army weren't looking to fight when they joined. They were looking for money to get an education or to learn a skill. Drop those same people into a war, and you will have people questioning themselves and their duty.

I want soldiers who are looking to be a soldier when they join, period. Because of my dual US UK citizenship, I was seriously thinking of renouncing my US citizenship so I could join the RM. A part of me wants to be a soldier. Anything I learn or any money I get being a Royal Marine would just be a bonus, not the reason.

I think the US is in big trouble here. The real fight is in Afghanistan anyhow......

Originally posted by Galvatron
Unfortunately what sets the west apart from the rest of the world is its strong belief in the rule of law. Law developed by people for people. A contract is a contract, regardless of what the circumstances are. He signed, he must do his duty.

I understand what you mean. A contract is a contract. But deceipt is deceipt. A lie is a lie, and bullshiot is bullshiot. GWB bullshioted his country into a war. He lied. And lied, and lied somemore. I'd feel that he should be doing the dirty work. Not me. (if i was in the army, contract or no contract).

I woudn't jump off a very tall bridge with no parachute or bungy cord and kill myself even if i did sign a contract. I wouldn't expect anyone to. Same deal goes with killing.

I have a family member over there too, fighting in the war on terrorism -- Afghanistan under NATO obligations.
He is fulfilling his Military obligation in a recognized conflict and is determined to do another tour -- in Afghanistan.

Dallas

Originally posted by DaRAGE

Illegal? By who? The government who lied to get him in there in the first place. The government who went to war and gave out false pretense to the people of the united states of america? The government who changes electronic votes to get them in power? Rigged.

Yes, illegal. He violated a contract.

False pretenses? ALLEGEDLY. Though they appear to be false now, they were thought to be true at the time. Believe what you want, but if it could be proven the administration would be impeached by now with the democrats in power. Personally I think that years from now a lot of evidence is going to come out that has been hidden. I've already seen bits and pieces here and there about WMDs found and evidence or Iraninan involvment but it never makes the MSM.

Election rigging? ALLEGEDLY. Again, if there was proof we would have an impeachment. There were irregularities in both elections and they were from both parties.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
Cowardly? Because he has more brains than guts? He's leaving his Family, friends, country, everyone, everything behind to choose Moral behaviour over Immoral behaviour.

Cowardly because he's a soldier who volunteered to fight and then abandoned his brothers in arms and ran away to hide.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
Traitorous? That word gets thrown around a lot. A traitor to ones country would be for instance, becoming an Iraqi and turning against your own people (the invaders, the americans), Selling classified information from your country to other countries, with intention causing harm to your own country or countrymen. Simply moving to Canada to live isn't a traitorous act. It's simply skipping town. The governemnt use the word traitor because they dont want otehr doing the same thing.

Let's just look into this

traitor - someone who betrays his country by committing treason
treason - a crime that undermines the offender's government

Combined definition of traitor - Someone who betrays his country by committing a crime that undermines the offender's government.

Abandoning ones military post seems to fit the definition to me. Maybe the dictionary is "throwing around the word a lot" too.

It is so easy to say: ''he signed it, so he shouldn't complain''.

Imagine yourself into his position. You sign up for the army as you are told by your government that the country is under attack, that Saddam is one of the responsible persons and that they [Iraq] can hit us with WMD's anytime soon.

Would you risk your life a 2nd for an unjustifiable war, which is only beneficial to a select group of people? I wouldn't give my life to satisfy the devil.

And if it comes to laws... the US government doesn't care about laws, but in this case, those soldiers, should?

I can tell you, 90% of the people on here calling him a traitor wouldn't risk their lives either.

He should have joined Halliburton's army of mercenaries. He would have been paid three times as much, he wouldn't have been subject to military standards of conduct, and when he quit, he wouldn't be called a traitor.

Probably better benefits plan, and there's always the sideline in the thriving flesh trade and movement of stolen precious historical art.

Terrible shame when mercenaries comprise an army. Not well respected on the battle field from what I've heard.

The president himself went AWOL - so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

I understand desertion in the case of conscription, much more though.

Seems like no one remembers the 60's when they gave a war and nobody came.

Someone called out on the "law" and the "land of the brave" well let me give you a quick quote:
"It is better to die on your feet than on your knees."

That can go two ways, having the GUTS to stand up and say "you lied!" and then walk off and refuse to fight. It can be the same as standing up and fighting for a just cause. Iraq? Not justified in ANY regards, making profit of of blood is NOT honorable, wise, nor JUSTIFIABLE!
The guy went to Iraq for one year, Ehren Watada served his first tour too, then they BOTH found out they had been lied too and when they got sent home, REFUSED TO GO BACK! THAT is called being brave, standing up to the people of power and calling them liars to their face.
A contract is void when you signed it under a lie, this guy was fooled and realized it, good job kid, now dont go back! That is one more to the list of "woken up Americans." I for one do NOT call him a traitor, I say he has more guts that people on this forum (the pro-send him back) and he has FAR more BRAVERY and HONOR than those who keep fighting an unjust war when they KNOW IT!
One thing this nation USED to stand for is ETHICS AND MORALITY! He did the ETHICAL AND MORAL thing, he refused to go back to an illegal war. He is one I will support, not the ones in Iraq. I REFUSE to support those who fight for the bu#es, I WILL support those who say: "NO! I am NOT going to fight your wars of greed and power mongering!" and then leave and refuse to go back.
In the USA there is a large amount of doublespeek and doubletalk in the government and its contracts. This guy fell for it like many others did. Difference is he stood up and walked off when he found out. So let me ask you as others have asked: If you signed a contract then found out you were not fighting for what you ORIGINALLY signed up for in the contract, that your fighting an illegal war, would you still go?
I say those who keep going while knowing have blood dripping from their hands and always will. It brings SHAME to the USA when people KNOW the truth yet keep fighting for the LIE! That is the ultimate insult to a nation. To have an army that knows the whole war is a lie and unjust but they keep fighting for the wrong people.


Once again and finally: This man is no traitor, he has HONOR, WISDOM (to a degree) and is truely a BRAVE MAN. He is what makes the nation stronger, the bravery to stand up to a lie even though you signed into it. That is called being an ETHICAL and MORAL person. This nation was not founded on being a bunch of blind sheep who follow every word even if they signed into it. It was based on keeping both eyes open and when you make a mistake: YOU FIX IT! When you do something wrong: You do a right to correct the wrong. This man fought for the enemy of the people worldwide, now he refuses to fight for them again, he has corrected his wrong.

I don't even know why I try to argue with half of you people. You base your arguments on things I don't believe to be true. I can see how it seems logical to argue half the things you do IF you take at face value your premiseis (yes that's spelled right, I looked it up). But I do not at this point and likely never will.

Originally posted by BlueTriangle
(yes that's spelled right, I looked it up)

You had to look it up!!!!

Originally posted by BlueTriangle
traitor - someone who betrays his country by committing treason
treason - a crime that undermines the offender's government

Combined definition of traitor - Someone who betrays his country by committing a crime that undermines the offender's government.

Is the guy in this clip a traitor???

His son became head of the CIA and later the US President. One of his grandsons is Governor of Florida (tipped to be a future president) and another grandson is the president who lied about Iraqs WMD's.
Some kind of family dynasty there. So is it right that the family of a traitor should become the rulers of USA, do you want to go to an evil war in Iraq for those guys? What kind of values did Prescott teach his family?

www.youtube.com...

GW Bush is a draft-dodger, does that qualify him as a traitor?

Originally posted by DaRAGE
Skadi, Sure he left his unit. More than likely they'll find a replacement and quick.

More than likely not. When one of our unit went awaol, I had to fill her post for 5 months, leaving my own job unfilled, and thus, my work lagging behind. With the current recruitment crisis, it is unlikely this guy will be replaced anytime soon.

And yes i'm quite sure you'll want to lock this man up for being a "traitor" but simply put, why put him in jail when he could just be executed right?

Wrong. Deserters only get shot in a time of declared war. This isn't an offically declared war my federal standards. Thus, prison he will go.

Traitors get executed yeah? He should be shot for leaving his post!

My oh my, you are one bloodthirsty little monster. To answer your adolescent hysterics, no, I would not have him shot. Prison is fine. especially since it will be Leavenworth prison in Kansas, a miserable place beyond imagination. No bleeding heart run place. No TV, video games, ect. A real piece of hell it is. After a couple months there, he will be wishing to his gods he was still in Iraq. After a year, he will be wishing he had been executed. Thus, I'd not waste a bullet on him.

After all he is in Iraq to stop saddamn from building WMD! Oh wait. No WMD's...

or, for that matter, no Saddam anymore. He is in Iraq because his government sent him there. What he does beyond that in Iraq is up to his chain of command.

Well he is there becuase Al quada and saddamn had links with each other? erm, no real links? erm didn't america install saddamn hussein as iraq leader?

Oh spare me your whining and drivveling assumptions. Don't assume anything with me. The war is bull. It was bull before it started. And I knew that then better than you could ever know. That doesn't change that fact that it wasn't this guy's place or job to pack up and leave simply because he didn't like it.

but wait, Saddamn is dead. He's been hung.

Well, according to the mutitude of prostitutes he employed, I heard the ol boy was pretty well hung.....but thats neither here nor there.

Why was he sent there? The oil. Corporate greed. George Bush lied. Axis of Evil. Blah Blah Blah Blah

Blah blah blah pretty much sums up your entire post.

Skadi and Midwest Agenda:
Have you ever read Charge of the Light Brigade by Alred Tennyson?
You might find the ending interesting and enlightening.

Skadi,

"This is not an officially declared war..."
Umm...need I say anything at all?

This whole thread has lead me to one conclusion which I didn't believe possible.....if( or when, depending on your position) the US gov ( and NWO govs) decides to start locking up mass #'s of US citizens for either terrorism or for FEMA reasons, there will be enough goose stepping goons to blindly follow what "they" tell them to do without using their own intellect to decide the moral thing to do. Someone else eluded to it earlier......most NAZI's were just "following" orders.

I'm Canadian and this part is in response to the person who said that now our gov will have to look after the "deserters". I'm happy to have this guy come here as he obviously has his head on his shoulders and will become a productive citizen. I do feel sorry for his family though as he never will be able to enter the US again.....and you say this guy has no balls? Try saying goodbye to everything
you know and love forever.....he could accomplish that by being shipped off to Iraq, perhaps get killed and it would be over. Which I might add he rolled the bones on once and woke up instead.

Do some Americans still not realize the REST of the WORLD sees the Iraq war as illegal??? If there was a reason to be there....WE all would be there.

To anyone in the US military that reads this......WE WILL WELCOME YOU!!!! Come here to help us fight the real fight, against the NEOCONS and CORPS as they are setting up shop here to use our resources and hide when the Dems get office for awhile..sort of like a virus / infection or cancer....................

Connector: Wow you just realized that now?!?! Dang! I realized that a couple of years ago when I started finding out about these happenings... Anyway, anything severe happens kiss Canada goodbye, they wont spare you either. Greed and hunger for power knows no ends.

Vekar....

LOL......I realized along time ago as well, but some posts in this thread just cemented it even more...and yes that is my biggest fear....the Neocon's have been setting up shop for sometime in Canada ( losta land and resources). God help my country, the Conservatives here are selling us out BIG time. Every step we took in forward in the past 25 years is being taken back in a few months. Believe it or not...this week was our 25 year anniversary of the "Charter of Rights and Freedoms". Something Canadians hold near and dear ( a more advanced/updated constitution) and our PM not only didn't attend, but didn't even send a rep to the ceremonies. He wants to give the parliament/ appointed judges the power to decide, not the peoples wishes.....sound familiar? Ahh but that's a different thread..........



Charter of Rights of Freedoms

CBC news source


Sorry to hi-jack


[edit on 17-4-2007 by Connector]



[edit on 17-4-2007 by Connector]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Wrong. Deserters only get shot in a time of declared war. This isn't an offically declared war by federal standards. Thus, prison he will go.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Blah blah blah pretty much sums up your entire post.

nuff said

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

This is the oath, notice its not about defending the territory or interests of the U.S government, its first and foremost about defending the constitution of the United States. A foreign army attacking the country and threatening its people is in violation of the constitution by denying the rights of the citizenry.

What happens when our own government is the enemy of the constitution?

I think you could make a strong case based simply on the failure to declare war that this war is in itself in violation of the constitution, and that orders to serve in it are illegal and can be disobeyed.

In the case of the Officer refusing to to back to Iraq the legality of the war was not allowed to be discussed by the defense. Perhaps this is because it would be proven that this war is in fact by legal standards unlawful.

If people would follow their conscience instead of blindly following orders, then perhaps there wouldn't be so much pointless bloodshed in this world.
The true cowards are those who commit evil and the justify it in the name of just doing their job.

The soldiers especially infantry soldiers who get sent to Iraq are placed into situation where they will be required to take innocent life in order to direct fire on the enemy. they will be required to enter houses of potential insurgents and violate the human rights of the people inside in oder to capture the enemy.

This is the bloody reality that most people don't understand who are not in the military. It requires you to become a machine, to subordinate your humanity to become a weapon able to be directed by superior officers.

You cannot adequately convey the realities of modern urban warfare to people without having them actually be a part of it. It is therefore no wonder that many when faced with the truth the recruiter never told them about see that it is not within their conscience to be a part of such terrible death and destruction.

What this man and others should have done however is stand up and face the consequences of their refusal to obey orders. Their cowardness if any lies in trying to flee to Canada instead of arguing their case as conscientious objectors. Which is a legitimate way for you to get out of the military, or at least get transfered into a non-combat role. Going off to Canada only serves to paint the image that you are just trying to duck out of hard work, and dangerous conditions.

many are those who volunteer for war.

it is a strange and dark mystery why so few volunteer for peace.