CNN: Dramatic increase in Army desertions

These "deserters" are men who have woken up and realized that they do not want to participate on the wrong side of history.

I agree with Zed. I served in the military and believe this guy should get nailed.

I was sent to saudi Arabia. I hate the Saudi government and society and found it most disagreeable defending that vile state. yet I still went, regardless of my ill feelings. Because I signed a contract, but more so. Its called obligations and people depending on you to behave responsible and carry out your duties. Had I decided to flee, it would have certainly hurt my unit gravely, as there were only two generator mechanics, myself and my buddy. I didn't go because I simply and blindly follow orders. I went because I knew when I signed on the dotted line that basically, my own personal opinions on matters would be moot in greater scheme of things while I served. While I certainly held on to my opinions and voiced them from time to time, It was my responsibility and duty to carry out my obligations, vows, ect, because it was about alot more than just my own reservations and opinions.

He is hurting his fellow soldiers by desertion. He is also not accepting responsibility for a descion he made to serve out his contract. He is taking the immature easy way out. He should have thought of that before he signed up. Ignorance and impulse are no excuse. Everyone knows there is the possibility that when in the military, you will find yourself in siutations that you can find objectionable. If you can't handle it, don't sign up.

Part of being an adult means that you must accept total responsibility for your actions, a principal that seems to be going out of fashion in this day and age in infantized adults who want to blame the government, society, their parents, ect for their failings or lack of discipline.

So as a deserter he should be punished. And from what i heard, the Canadian government is not gonna accept all these deserters this time, because all of them are volunteers. Its one of the few times I agree with the canadians. Why should the canadians have to house and take care of a bunch of selfish adults who cant accept responsibility for their own descisions? This ain't the draft. These soldiers volunteered for this, they need to carry out their task.

If it was a draft, I would feel differently. If someone was forced to serve in the military like they did in Vietnam, I would feel alot mroe compassion and sympathy and support for people who left, because they didn't choose to sign up in the first place. But thats not the case here.

As far as having your service involuntarily extended, thats also an aspect of your contract. After Saudi, and with rising tensions in the Balkans, I had confirmed in my head that I no longer shared the military policy of going around the world and babysitting idiots and criminals who are happy to live in a death reality. I almost got sent to the Balkans, as they were talking about trying to involuntarily extend people to send there, but in the end, they did not, so I was free to be discharged after completion of my service. However, had they involuntarily extended me, I would have went to Bosnia regardless, as that was duty.

While invading Iraq was the most stupid and harmful descision that government has made in a while, it is still the obligation and duty of all who signed on the dotted line to go and serve regardless. It is not the job of the military to decide which wars and conflicts they want to fight. That is the job of the American citizen through continued vilgilance of the government.

Something that most people seem to miss is that this guy FINISHED HIS TORE, he was done, and there was no breach of contract on his end. He did his job, did his time and now the army should let him go. If he was still under contract I would be saying that he should be thrown in jail. But he did what he was supposed to do.

You sign up to defend your country, not fight your corporations illegial wars.
You sign up for 2 years, yet get forced to continue without having a say.
If the country doesnt want deserters, it shouldnt fight illegial wars.

would you call any Germans who fled the army after the nazi's invaded poland traitors? or people who saw the reality of their countries illegial ways, and would rather face the risk of prosecution than be a part of that dark part of history?



[edit on 16-4-2007 by Agit8dChop]

But he is still under contract. Contract states that he can be involuntarily extended beyond his ETS date.

It's selective hearing/reading/memory Mr.M. One of the most common ailments of our day. George O is either laughing or crying from beyond the grave.

Is that the case Skadi? Could you please post a link. If that's the case I'm gonna have to rethink my argument here. Thanks.

He's a deserter>>> period

Originally posted by golddragnet
Putting a name to paper doesn't mean anything in the eyes of God.

You have voted golddragnet for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by BlueTriangle
I feel sorry for the guy. But, if he broke the law and deserted...he's a traitor. I understand that maybe he felt "disillusioned", but when you put the pen to paper and agree to something, you need to stick it out. A man is only as good as his word...and this guy broke his.

Are you kidding me? You say he broke his word but have you considered that when you sign something that turns out to be a lie you have no reasons to feel sorry for breaking it because it's not the cause you signed for in the first place...

This guy has every right to not contribute to something he DID NOT SIGN FOR..

Originally posted by omega1

Originally posted by Midwest Agenda
I will tell you who I feel sorry for. This mans family, thats who.

He is a coward and a traitor and his family has to live with that everyday.

Di-illusioned? SO WHAT. Grow up, grow a pair and BE A MAN!

You gave your word as a man, signed a piece of paper ( contract as a man ) so just be a man and do your duty.

Maybe the United States is better off without this man as a citizen. Stay in Canada punk. Good riddens, ey?

M.Agenda!

you are an evil mind clown


the man was lied too, contract is void

Hey friend, don't bother with Midwest Agenda.

He's playing a character to demonstrate how some people are brain washed.

Originally posted by Midwest Agenda
I did my time in the service. Did you? Did any of you? I was a man. They told what needed to be done and I did it. I WAS A MAN - WERE YOU?

I did my time, 6 years and I'm a disabled Gulf War one vet. But I totally disagree with your blind acceptance of authority.

The military and the rest of the population were lied to. Yes we volunteered to protect and serve, we didn't volunteer to illegally invade foreign nations to further the agenda of the elite. And we didn't volunteer to be treated like lab rats for testing new vaccines either, but I and thousands of others will suffer the rest of our lives because of it. If I had known what they were giving us I would have deserted too.

Traitor? I think the US government is the traitor. Traitor to it's people.

You think it's right that people should be treated this way? We volunteered based on lies, and then you think it's wrong when the volunteers refuse to continue once they realise the truth?

[edit on 16/4/2007 by ANOK]

First of all, my father was military and served in Vietnam. I've been around military people a large portion of my life and have nothing but the greatest respect for them.
I think it's disgusting that people are calling this man a traitor. He signed the contract because he believed the lie about Iraq. He did his duty, but they changed the rules on him, and now he has to hide out in another country?
How can anyone blame him and call him names for something that wasn't his fault?
He was military, yes, but also human, and no human deserves that kind of treatment.

I thought this was land of the free, not land of unquestioning subservient
chauvinists.

Originally posted by Midwest Agenda
I will tell you who I feel sorry for. This mans family, thats who.

He is a coward and a traitor and his family has to live with that everyday.

Di-illusioned? SO WHAT. Grow up, grow a pair and BE A MAN!

You gave your word as a man, signed a piece of paper ( contract as a man ) so just be a man and do your duty.

Maybe the United States is better off without this man as a citizen. Stay in Canada punk. Good riddens, ey?

M.Agenda!

I can never understand why people like you come on this forum.
You just seem to have no idea at all , but still you come back

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
Say you signed a contract to make 1000 sandwiches, and you completed the 1000 sandwiches, and you don’t want to do it anymore but you were told that you have to because the company can’t find anyone that wants to take the job. You have fulfilled your contract but the company wants to sue you because if you don’t make the sandwiches they will not be made. So do you think that the company should be able to sue? This is essentially what the army is doing to people now.

I would like to see the details and proof on this alleged change of contract. I have two members of my immediate family that are either in or very recently in the military. One did a tour in south korea and, just a few months ago, left with an honorable discharge when his commitment was up. So, I can tell you from personal experience, that the military at least did not extend enlistment time in this case. What probably happened here is that the guy didn't read his contract.

Despite what anybody thinks of the war, we have laws that must be abided by. When a recruit signs that contract, they are agreeing to serve for a specific amount of time. Backing out before it's fulfilled is not only illegal, it's cowardly and traitorous.

Originally posted by Orwells Ghost
Is that the case Skadi? Could you please post a link. If that's the case I'm gonna have to rethink my argument here. Thanks.

Id have to search a bit to find a contract. I am speaking from personal knowledge. When you sign up, you sign up for a total of 8 years. Some people go directly into the active reserves the full 8 years, some people serve on active duty the full 8 years. Some break it up like I did: 4 years active, 2 years active reserve, two years IRR (Individual ready reserve).

Some people do their active service, then go straight in the IRR. IRR means you are no longer active serving, however, you can still be called up during the remainder of those inactive years, can be called back to active duty until your time is up. In extreme cases, even after you have served the full 8 years, you can still be involuntarily extended.

My example: I left active service in 96. I had originally signed up in 91. That left 3 years in my original 8 year contract. I was in the active reserves till 98, then went inactive. In 98, there was the Kosovo campaign starting. Had they wanted to or needed to, I could have been called up to active service to be deployed there despite serving my full active years.

When you enlist in the military or re-enlist, they can legally extend your original contract, if you are still under it. However, for example, my full contract expired in 1999. Afghanistan started in 2001. They could not legally recall me, as my total time had expired and I was not in service. The only way they could have brought me back in would be a draft.

But if this guy is still under his contract years, he can still be extended and called back. It is there in writing (not fine print, its very legible) when you enlist.

Before i start with my views i'm just going to post the following quote again.

Phil McDowell joined the military because of patriotism he felt after 9/11, reports CNN. He then served a year in Iraq because he thought he was fighting for a just cause.

"I did believe it was a just cause at the time," he says. "I thought that was something that, our country was under attack, and [Saddam Hussein] was facilitating these attacks, and he was a threat to us."

But in light of evidence that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction and there were no credible ties between Iraq and al Qaeda, McDowell changed his mind and became "disillusioned," reports CNN.

I just want to let you guys who call this guy a traitor something.

I got five words for you: Under False Pretense. The Devil.

Now hear me out, hear me out, please.

So an ordinary guy gets fooled by the 9/11 attacks and thinks his country is under attack. The attacks are coming from dictator Saddamn hussein who has links with Al Queda and is building WMD as said the president. The President of his country has told him lies that were known to the President as lies, and produced evidence about the WMD (which was pretty much fakes and shown to be wrong and highly stung bullshiot evidence in the end) yet the president of America lied to him and the country. So this ordinary guy gets patriotic and feels he must join the army and fight for justice and destroy those who are attacking his country. So after trusting the Top most elected official the President of the United State of America. If you cant trust the President of your own country, who can you trust? Mr Ordinary guy joins the army, he does. Signs the contract on the dotted line (whihc also says his service could be called apon for longer service time). Lied to, knowingly by the President of the United States, he was.

Told to kill based on a bunch of lies, he was. Tricked, he was. Told to work in a depleted Uranium environment, told to kill people all based on a lie as to why you're actually there to begin with. Lied to by your own president. A lie that changed your life. A lie that with changes to the military you would be forced to work longer for.

So here comes Mr Second hand car sales man with a Ferrari that he's renting out, for you guessed it, $1000 a year for four years (on the contract it also says that the contractor can get the contract extended for a further four years anytime throughout the contract he chooses and the renter would still have to pay the same price per year if it does get extended for those years ($1000 per year). The contract also says that the contractor may ge the renter to do a couple non-specified favours that the contractor wants done no questions asked and the renter will do them else the contract is breached). The contractor goes on to tell the renter verbally that these favours will probably be wash my car once, mow my lawn once.
Renter signs the contract. two months down the track the contract is extended to eight years renting the ferrari and the contractor calls in favour number one. "Kill my wife, she is cheating on me" and produces evidence (that later turns out wrong and had in fact been misrepresented and faked). Renter was lied to verbally. Killing someone in cold blood is not the same as washing a car or lawn mowing). He fulfills his contract. Thats MURDER!


Manslaughter: Self defence: guy entered my home and attacked me. I killed him. SElf defence. Manslaughter.

Murder: Someone attacked me in my house. I dont know who it was it was too dark so I blamed some guy, didn't have proof it was him but he looked sus, went into his house, Killed him. Thats not self defence. That's Murder.

This traitor rubbish is all about Morality.

Self defence, or murder. Moral or immoral.

As it stands (especially you Skadi elf Mr "I served in Saudi Arabia and hate those F*&kers"). Saudi Arabia is not Iraq and your reasons for joining up were different than Phil McDowell.

Since Nazi's were in court getting asked why they commited these atrocities, "Just Following Orders" is not considered a reasonable excuse.

Yawn. Let me make this clear.

Joins military. Signs contract. Knows damn well that he will be sent anywhere on command. To kill possibly. he cant pick and choose which wars he wants to fight. If he wanted to do that he should have never joined. Period. Ignorance is no excuse.

He knew damn well that the government would NOT stop with just afghanistan. He signed up, and now, he must continue whether he likes it or not.

Traitor? Yes. But not a traitor to country or government. he is a traitor to his fellow soldiers. he has bailed out and left them to fight or do whatever without him. Obviously, you are clueless about how a military unit works. AWOLS and desertions create strain on the unit, even more so if he had a unique position with his unit. His fellow soldiers count on every last man to finish their tasks. Desertions also lower morale, which is already at a pretty bad state in the whole military. They cause alot of problems.

So yes, he is a traitor. When you are in the military, its a different world from the nice cozy fluffy bunny bliss of civilian life. personal problems and concerns take back seat to the task at hand. If not, you have no military.

He betrayed his fellow soldiers, set a very poor example for others, so yeah. Hes a friggin traitor. And his fellow soldiers would most probably agree.

His descision was not only irresponsible, but selfish.

Originally posted by BlueTriangle
Backing out before it's fulfilled is not only illegal, it's cowardly and traitorous.

Illegal? By who? The government who lied to get him in there in the first place. The government who went to war and gave out false pretense to the people of the united states of america? The government who changes electronic votes to get them in power? Rigged.

Cowardly? Because he has more brains than guts? He's leaving his Family, friends, country, everyone, everything behind to choose Moral behaviour over Immoral behaviour.

Traitorous? That word gets thrown around a lot. A traitor to ones country would be for instance, becoming an Iraqi and turning against your own people (the invaders, the americans), Selling classified information from your country to other countries, with intention causing harm to your own country or countrymen. Simply moving to Canada to live isn't a traitorous act. It's simply skipping town. The governemnt use the word traitor because they dont want otehr doing the same thing.

Skadi, Sure he left his unit. More than likely they'll find a replacement and quick. And yes i'm quite sure you'll want to lock this man up for being a "traitor" but simply put, why put him in jail when he could just be executed right? Traitors get executed yeah? He should be shot for leaving his post! After all he is in Iraq to stop saddamn from building WMD! Oh wait. No WMD's...

Well he is there becuase Al quada and saddamn had links with each other? erm, no real links? erm didn't america install saddamn hussein as iraq leader?

but wait, Saddamn is dead. He's been hung.

Why was he sent there? The oil. Corporate greed. George Bush lied. Axis of Evil. Blah Blah Blah Blah