My second challenge to the members of ATS...

Ok, a while back I issued a challenge to the "psychics" of the board, in which I asked them to prove to me personally that it was a phenomena that really existed....

Long story short, it was a failure.......Nobody could really prove anything, and I got a lot of "Why should I prove my powers?" questions and/or statements.

So, this post about the miraculous (yet easily explained) Light Pole Phenomena got me thinking...

I want to see evidence of anyone who claims to have any sort of energy manipulating powers, psi-powers, etc. etc. etc.....

Basically, if you claim to be able to do something "supernatural," well then, simply, prove it....

I fully expect this thread to end up much the same way the other did...No real proof, and a bunch of people taking offense that they are being called out for their claims.....

If you are so special that you have some amazing ability, well then, show us...with un-debunkable proof....

Originally posted by Azazelus
I fully expect this thread to end up much the same way the other did...No real proof, and a bunch of people taking offense that they are being called out for their claims.....

Well I don't want to crush your expectations so here I post.

If you are so special that you have some amazing ability, well then, show us...with un-debunkable proof....

The main problem is anything can be faked. If I asked you to show me proof that you can pour a glass of milk, and you post a video of someone pouring a glass of milk, I can show how you faked it by diluting Elmer's glue and pouring it into a glass.

If you want proof there is only one way to do it, you have to use the scientific method. You take someones directions (experiment) and you follow it exactly to gather your own proof. If you don't come up with the same results one of two things happened. 1. you did not follow the directions correctly or 2. it does not work.

Now the question is are you up to the challenge?

Originally posted by Cug
If you want proof there is only one way to do it, you have to use the scientific method. You take someones directions (experiment) and you follow it exactly to gather your own proof. If you don't come up with the same results one of two things happened. 1. you did not follow the directions correctly or 2. it does not work.

I agree.

The only way you're going to get conclusive un-debunkable proof of psychic abilities is for you to gather up all the people who claim to have abilities and test each of them in the exact same way and then look at your results. You aren't going to get anything that can't be debunked from an internet forum. Things like this have to be done in person. If they give you videos demonstrating what they can do, then it's camera tricks. If they give you pictures, it's photo-shopped. If they give you audio, it's faked. There's no way for anyone to be able to prove anything to you unless you witness it yourself.

You will not get proof. You did not get it the first time and will not this time. Why? Well, that answer is simple.

The people who sit around and claim that they can do these things simply can not. It is not a matter of "I do not need to prove anything to you". It is a matter of ability; an ability which they do not possess.

If they had the ability to do so they would be able to contact certain individuals, prove their claims and walk away with thousands or millions in cash.

A short list of those who they could contact:

*James Randi - Will pay 1,000,000 American.

*B. Premanand - Will pay 100,000 in Indian current.

*Prabir Ghosh - Will pay 20,000,000 (Using the Indian numbering system) and is equal to 20,000 in the western numbering system.

*The Australian Skeptics - Will pay 100,000 Australian.

*The Association for Skeptical Inquiry - Will pay £12,000.

*The Tampa Bay Skeptics - Will pay 1,000 American.

*The North Texas Skeptics - Will pay 12,000 American.

And so on.

Furthermore, this offer to pay individuals who can demonstrate powers of this nature is nothing new. In fact, it has been around in one way or another for more then a little while.

Oh, and if anyone here pulls the "I do not need to validate myself with money" BS: Do you know of any charitable organization that would turn down over one million dollars?

I didn't think so.

Originally posted by Jenna

There's no way for anyone to be able to prove anything to you unless you witness it yourself.

in addition to that thought is

the line of "Trust half of what you see....and none of what you hear..."
from song; 'I Heard It Through The Grapevine'

but beyond the documentation & proof & truthfulness issues,
any supernatural act or continuing talent
does not come from the individual, but some other source outside the person, as I understand psychic or spiritual phenomena.

and as such, the unique act or summoning up of the super/supra natural
forces or energies that make the strange thing happen, seem to be quite
fickle in producing a quality, public display on command.

Even in a comfortable setting, with everything conducive for the psychic or paranormal performer to accomplish a supernatural feat....
ESP studies at places like Duke University have not turned in 'Undeniable Proof'......

....how would this forum - - in your thread - - become the single exception in the history of the search/study/testing of paranormal abilities.
I'm afraid you'll have TWO 'dead threads' on your resume',
keep on trying

The problem with the above "challenges" as I see it is they want proof of "supernatural" abilities. I don't claim to have any.

If I claim Magick is real... the only proof they will accept is for me to change someone into a frog. Something I can't do.

Let me give an example.

Last year I did a magical ritual to obtain a set of books that were outside my budget (The Equinox Vol I). A few days latter I found a set on eBay and won the auction for several hundred dollars less than they normally go for. I did a ritual for X and got X. That is all I need to know. Randi and kin for some reason want me to materialize the books in a hermetically sealed room in a puff of smoke.

Originally posted by Cug
Last year I did a magical ritual to obtain a set of books that were outside my budget (The Equinox Vol I).

[...]

I did a ritual for X and got X. That is all I need to know. Randi and kin for some reason want me to materialize the books in a hermetically sealed room in a puff of smoke.

No, Randi and kin simply want anyone who claims to have supernatural powers of any sort to demonstrate them under controlled observation.

You claim to bend spoons? You can not use your own spoons.

You claim the ability of remote viewing? You must show this ability with more then just vague hits.

So on and so forth.

In your case, you got lucky with timing and used a website which offers the ability to find items at a lower price then you would elsewhere...

...where is the magic?

Originally posted by spines

You claim to bend spoons? You can not use your own spoons.

You claim the ability of remote viewing? You must show this ability with more then just vague hits.

So you want proof of a stage trick, and proof of something beyond what most people claim. (discounting "teachers" who have to pump up their product)

In your case, you got lucky with timing and used a website which offers the ability to find items at a lower price then you would elsewhere...

...where is the magic?

What do you think magic is?

Originally posted by Azazelus
If you are so special that you have some amazing ability, well then, show us...with un-debunkable proof....

There's nothing particulary special about 'psychic powers', most people have some level of psychic ability. Perfectly ordinary everyday people, people you pass on the street on the way to work, have psychic experiences, intuitions. Some people choose to work on developing that ability and get a bit better at using it, most folk just accept it as something that just happens sometimes and leave it at that. I don't have any great psychic ability, just the everyday intuition stuff, but if I had, I'm not sure I would really care what anyone else thinks about it. I doubt whether anyone's going to try and prove anything to you, because it's obvious that you're just offering this challenge so that you can shoot them down and prove to yourself that such things don't exist. The only thing that can change the mind of a hardline sceptic is direct first-hand personal experience, nothing anyone else does will make a blind bit of difference. If you were really interested in finding proof, you would go out and look for it yourself, read up on the research, do your own experiments - not call people out on an internet forum and demand that they show you their 'powers'.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by spines

You claim to bend spoons? You can not use your own spoons.

You claim the ability of remote viewing? You must show this ability with more then just vague hits.

So you want proof of a stage trick, and proof of something beyond what most people claim. (discounting "teachers" who have to pump up their product)

No, I was simply using two simple examples. Both 'spoon bending' (using only your mind) and remote viewing have been claimed by many individuals.

Replace those two with any psychic, supernatural or magical 'power' if it makes you feel better.

In your case, you got lucky with timing and used a website which offers the ability to find items at a lower price then you would elsewhere...

...where is the magic?

What do you think magic is?


I am not quite sure what it is exactly as it has different definitions/connotations across many cultures.

However, I have no issue with saying that your discovery of cheaper books then usual (on ebay of all places) is nothing more then a coincidence of timing...not a direct result of your ritual.

Originally posted by skjalddis
If you were really interested in finding proof, you would go out and look for it yourself, read up on the research, do your own experiments - not call people out on an internet forum and demand that they show you their 'powers'.

This search for legitimate individuals has already been under way ;whether it be through the offer of money as an incentive to those who can demonstrate their powers (see a few replys up), or calling individuals out on their claims (Houdini and his quest to debunk individuals who claimed communication with the dead and finiding them all to be frauds).

The burden of proof is on those who claim to have these powers (quite a few peoples on this very site fall into this catagory). The burden is there and they have had more then ample amounts of time/opportunity to cast that burden off of themselves.

Asking for proof on the internet (where oh so many people claim to have these 'powers') is simply doing what many others have done: Making 'powered' individuals put up or shut up.

two things.

spines, you said Cug got "lucky".

I'd really, really like to hear what you mean by "luck", and then I'd like to see proof of its existence.

thanks.

EDIT-

And here's another challenge for you and the OP both, while we're dealing them out to one another like the cocky bastards we are:

Can you produce for me a complete and working model of physics that explains the constituent natural phenomena of Reality in complete, empirical, and incontrivertible terms?

I don't want to see anything involving the Higgs Boson until you can prove it exists, and I want your theory to account for time, the existence of matter and energy in the face of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and Human sentience.

If you fail, I'll be very sanctimonious, I'm warning you.



[edit on 11-4-2007 by The Parallelogram]

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
spines, you said Cug got "lucky".

I'd really, really like to hear what you mean by "luck", and then I'd like to see proof of its existence.

thanks.

My use of the word luck and your jumping on me for it is arguing semantics.

Cug wished to find a book at a lower price then usual. I am sure that he/she checked ebay as well as various other sources for a cheaper copy more then just once. A 'magical ritual' was performed and then afterwards, a few days, a cheaper copy was found on a site which is used soley for finding items at cheaper price.

The timing was a matter of coincidence...if it had been a few weeks later I am sure that he/she would still have attributed it as readily to the ritual.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
And here's another challenge for you and the OP both, while we're dealing them out to one another like the cocky bastards we are:

[...]

If you fail, I'll be very sanctimonious, I'm warning you.

I can not.

You ask me to explain things that the experts in the appropriate fields can not fully explain in some cases. I am trained in the human mind and the abnormal conditions it can produce. Science, especially those which are still theoretical in nature, is not something I can discuss with confidence.

However, there are advances in understanding every year within these fields and in regards to these questions. With improving tech comes increased understanding of these questions and, possibly, answers.

Maybe if you were to ask individuals who are learned in the field you will gain some insight into your questions.

But there is one difference in what you ask of me and what people like Randi, the OP and myself ask: Those who understand and attempt to understand your questions to theoretical science admit to just that; it is theoretical. They admit that evidence leads them to believe logical outcomes which they readily label as theories.

Physics, for example, may be theoretical but from what we know it works as a system and if we are to find information to the otherwise it will be ammended (such as certain discoveries in quantum-physics). You see, it is something which seems to prove itself and if/when knowledge to the contrary makes itself known it will be ammended accordingly. I believe this is called falsifiability...something that psychic/supernatural acts seem tp lack.

Individuals who claim that they can perform these acts never make good on proof. It only seems to happen by themselves with nobody watching. They never demonstrate enough to make it theoretical in nature; there is nothing to debate as their is nothing ever shown. However, individuals who study theoretical science can demonstrate in controlled enviroments the acts which lead them to their conclusions. Controlled enviroments with results that can be replicated/tested by others.

So while I may not be able to explain these theoretical sciences, those trained in the fields can demonstrate what causes them to come to the conclusions they have come to. They freely label it theoretical and await confirming or disproving evidece. Those who claim supernatural powers do not make any degree of proof available to anyone except themselves and refuse evidence that contradicts what they want so badly to be true.

Not to be a downer but I see this thread going down the tubes with personal attacks shortly, but I applaud the cause..

I find myself in an odd world lately that feels like a dichotomy of the world that runs around us in the background and has that "mechanized" feel to it, and then that other world... The one that never touches our physical senses but yet we can feel it so vividly that it's impossible to deny it's existence.

I'll say that I can offer you little proof as to what I would consider a "supernatural" ability or sense, and that is because it honestly has no correlation to the physical world. For example, this is something I've been working on and I believe I have the right dog for this is to try to see what he's thinking. I have an Am-Staff and the breed is known for forming tight bonds with their owners and they're driven and such. Well, when he needs or wants something he'll come and get my attention and stare at me, I have been trying to clear my mind when he does that, and sometimes I'll get a flash of an image. The one I've seen the most frequently is when he wants water, I'll see a puddle... Like one in a lawn or street... Odd, but every time I can get that image from him, he's happy as hell to get his water.

Long story short, how do I prove such a thing? I mean for quite a while I didn't even get what he was "saying" to me, granted it makes sense now, but it isn't always the same image, so I had to look for a common theme.

I'm not asking anyone believe what I say or that they resort to name calling because I think it's actually kind of weird and I don't really talk about it much.

But I wanted to post that because to me, it's inherently difficult to get physical evidence from something that is by description not of the physical realm. Perhaps some people have some ideas that would be tangible and, even though may be open to faking, would show good effort to meet the requests of the OP. Something on the lines of a recording with someone working a PSI wheel that is under glass? I know that's a starting point of PSI works and I would think we'd have at least a few members here that have had success with moving their PSI wheel under glass.

Enough thoughts there to keep the thread on track?

Originally posted by spines
This search for legitimate individuals has already been under way ;whether it be through the offer of money as an incentive to those who can demonstrate their powers..

From what I've seen of the likes of Randi - those folk are not looking for proof that the psychic abilities exist, what they really want is proof that they don't - but you can't prove a negative, so what they resort to is - they demand proof of existence but then "refuse evidence that contradicts what they want so badly to be true."

See, both sides are at best, as bad as each other. Those who demand 'scientic proof' are often very unscientific about it. Evidence that would be accepted as very positive in any other field gets dismissed out of hand. Nothing personal to anyone, but it does sometimes seemsas though people who deny the existence of the paranormal actually feel threatened by the possibility that such things could exist, are afraid that what they perceive as being the 'scientific' view of a nuts and bolts universe where nothing supernatural exists may not be the intellectually superior position that they consider it to be.

It's sad but HaTaX is right, there's only one way that this thread is going to go, and that is down. East is East, and all that. The OP won't get his proof and we'll all just carry on as before.

BTW, HaTax - I know what you mean about communication with animals, I've tried this myself, I know exactly what you're talking about.


[edit on 12-4-2007 by skjalddis]

There are reformed sceptics out there - people who once didn't believe in the existence of paranormal phenomena but who have had their views changed. However, of those that I know about, they all - all of them - had their view changed by direct personal experience, not by things demonstrated by others, but by things that had happened to themselves.

That's the way it happened with Ross Hemsworth who sponsors the 'NowThatsWeird' forum, I gather, go ask him..
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's just the way that things are. Evidence offered by others will never suffice, which is why I consider such challenges pointless. People who really want proof tend eventually to find that proof, to their own satisfaction at least, but a lot of people who claim to want proof actually don't want it atall, and the only way those people will be convinced, if ever, is by their own experience.

Also, if you look at it fairly, you will see that there really aren't that many people on here claiming 'special powers' - mostly the talk is about people's strange experiences, things that they've seen, experiments, attempts to develop abilities, intuitions - this is all a quite different matter - there are few 'Uri Gellers' here.

As for Randi - there is evidence that he himself is not credible:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Alrighty then...

I know my tone might have made you assume what my beliefs are....

For that, I apologize..

What I do not apologize for, is the simple challenge itself...

None of you know what exactly my beliefs are, on either side of the matter....To assume you do, and hurl such comments as "cocky bastards," is way out of line, and totally uncalled for..

All I ask is for some sort of demonstration, much like the poster of the Light Pole thread tried to demonstrate...

For your information, I believe that most of us have powers that we do not fully understand, or are able to control....

As far as the comments about proving the Physics yadda yadda yadda...

Whay not start your own thread with your own challenge? I mean, at least it seems that Science is constantly trying to prove/disprove things, unlike the ones I have challenged...As is the case most of the time, the reaction is "I cannot prove something that you should find for yourself." Well, what do you think I am trying to do?

For the example of the ebay purchase...

Is this a case of something you did having an effect on an outcome? Or, is it simply a case of you applying your perceptions to a particular incident? By your statements, it seems like you believe the first...

Who is to say that it isn't hit and miss? What would be the case if you didn't find them at a cheaper price? Would you so gloriously brag about how this ceremony had an influence on the situation? If it did actually have an effect, then why not manipulate other things? Or, is that an abuse of power?

To each their own, I say....

But, around here especially, folks make outlandish claims sometimes... If they want to believe it, then fine.. Just don't expect me to, if you cannot do it again and again, in a controlled environment.

That isn't saying I won't simply believe it because I want to...which we all do in certain situations...

Just don't take the tone of the offended individual if someone does not believe in something you state...

Originally posted by spines

Cug wished to find a book at a lower price then usual. I am sure that he/she checked ebay as well as various other sources for a cheaper copy more then just once. A 'magical ritual' was performed and then afterwards, a few days, a cheaper copy was found on a site which is used soley for finding items at cheaper price.

do you use eBay for anything considered "collectable"? This was a ten volume set of book that normally go for $600-800 and occasionally found at over a grand. I got it for $450 +shipping.

The timing was a matter of coincidence...if it had been a few weeks later I am sure that he/she would still have attributed it as readily to the ritual.

So you are sure, what kind of evidence can you use to back up that statement? No, a few weeks later would of been a failure of the ritual. I spotted the set the next day.. and I had to wait for the auction to end.

Originally posted by Azazelus

Who is to say that it isn't hit and miss?

Well i have 20 years worth of rituals recorded that tell me it's not hit or miss.

What would be the case if you didn't find them at a cheaper price? Would you so gloriously brag about how this ceremony had an influence on the situation?

Well nobody asked for failures. but in the case of a failure you go back and look at what you did and try to spot what you did in error. It's kinda like baking bread.. something you need to add more flour or more water than normal to make it come out right.

If it did actually have an effect, then why not manipulate other things? Or, is that an abuse of power?

Manipulate other things? I not sure what you are getting at? Are you asking what I don't zap up a million bucks or something like that? Well Magick just doesn't work like that. It can only manifest via natural means, and unfortunate there is no natural way for me to get a million bucks.

Lets say someone did a ritual to get a job.. now if that person never looks for a job, and just sits in his house playing video games all day he is not going to get a job no matter what he does.

Just don't take the tone of the offended individual if someone does not believe in something you state...

What tone?

yeah its real but im a begginer only focusing on psi balls then movin on to kinisis