Another revolution in Ukraine

Here is a few questions to help you in your reporting effort:

* How has the (insert relevant party name) helped you and what do you think your party will do for you and your family?

* What is your vision of the future in the Ukraine? How would you like the country to be for your family now and your children in the future. What would you like to see?

* What are your major concerns with what is happening in the Ukraine at this moment? How does the current situation compare with what your expectations were once the Soviet Union dissolved?


Twist them any way you wish, I would just like to hear the feelings of the people, how they are, their wishes for their future, without the political rhetoric if you know what I mean.

I will try to come up with more, but I know we have members who are very good at asking questions and they should be chiming in from time to time.

As always, stay safe

*sigh* One last update to this load of info

Yushenko's recent statement - "there is currently way too much police in the city. Way too many policemen."

The police is needed to maintain order in the city is it not?! How can you have "too many" of them?! They are the only thing in the way of outright violance. I hope some of you are catching onto where this might be heading to.

Furthermore; I have recieved word from a certain source that troops are being pulled up to Kiev now. This is looking very grim. If any of you have heard anything about this right now I could use as much intel as I can get.

Connect the puzzle here with the post I made above about the minister of defense and his statements. This is looking very bad.

His words at this point are "If the national security is threatened, force will be used.

His name, I just found out, is Gricenco (if that's how you spell it).

Also; one of the president's advisor's was asked if the situation will escalate to violance. Instead of a yes or no answer he replied "We have plans drawn out for any possible scenario".

Very bad.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be happy to answer any of your questions.

I have a connection to Ukraine and am sad and dissapointed to see this nation that has such a long and extremely rich history, a historical culture that valued freedom so much, a history of peasant revolting against the corrupt establishment and organising the Cossack's to fight off all who wished to run their lives, Russians, Poles, Tartars etc. only to see the breadbasket of Europe slowly disintigrating due to the two opposing influences on the two major parties.

Communism unfortunately created an East Versus West situation in Ukraine, with the Eastern side favoring Russia and the Western side favoring European Union integration.

Russia will never accept a NATO backed Ukraine whilst Europe would dearly love Ukraine to be integrated into it's Union as would the US.

This is the major behind the scene cause of the instability going on at the moment......it is a power struggle between the old guard of Soviet Russia and the new guard who wish to move the country forward.

It will be extremely sad if it were the case the violence ensues and the nation breaks up on either side of the Dnieper River based on political influeneces......

I have faith in the people of Ukraine for their nation has shed an extremely large amount of blood in their past for the right to be free.

"Sche ne vmerla Ukraina, ni slava ni volya......."

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
Here is a few questions to help you in your reporting effort:

* How has the (insert relevant party name) helped you and what do you think your party will do for you and your family?

* What is your vision of the future in the Ukraine? How would you like the country to be for your family now and your children in the future. What would you like to see?

* What are your major concerns with what is happening in the Ukraine at this moment? How does the current situation compare with what your expectations were once the Soviet Union dissolved?


Twist them any way you wish, I would just like to hear the feelings of the people, how they are, their wishes for their future, without the political rhetoric if you know what I mean.

I will try to come up with more, but I know we have members who are very good at asking questions and they should be chiming in from time to time.

As always, stay safe

Got it all writen down J. I'll get to these questions tommowrow morning, they should be holding another rally and people with a logical mind ought to be present. Right now it's too late during the day plus I would like to go and buy myself a voice recorder and microphone lol. Either way you will see the answer to your questions here within the next 12 hours.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.

I've got one question for you. What is the army doing?

Melbourne, communism was not to blame for the split in Ukrain regarding east and west. This was history itself. Eastern Ukrain was where Russia originated from and has always been pro Russia. As a matter of fact eastern Ukrain was the last stand of the white's troops during the civil war. They have always been loyal to Russia (Kiev stand out right now due to the goverment in place). Crimea has always been Russian territory until 1954 when Nikita Kruschev declared it to be part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The term Ukrain itself didn't exist until the bolshevik revolution. Befor it was simply part of the Russian empire and refered to as Russia. Befor Russia it was called Kievskaja Rus' which in english would be translated as Kievan Russia. Ukrain was never an independant country until the collapse of the soviet union. The only part of Ukrain which was never happy about Russians was the western Ukrain as it is now known. Western Ukrain wasn't part of Kievan Rus', nor was it part of it during the Russian Empire. It fell into the hands of the USSR around the year 1939. Befor this time it belonged to many countries. All sorts of nationalities live there; polish, hungarians, moldovians, romanians, you name it. It's a giant cultural soup so to say. That is the region that historicaly never liked Russia. That is exactly where this nationalism is rising from within ukrain. As for "history of peasant revolting against the corrupt establishment and organising the Cossack's to fight off all who wished to run their lives, Russians, Poles, Tartars etc." That is a fair statement except Russia does not fit that list. The Cossacks ALWAYS remained loyal to the tsar of Russia. They were the pride and even a symbol of the Russian forces. Ofcourse back then it was about the slavic people more than about Russia/Ukrain. Modern Ukrainian nationalism says otherwise but history tends to speak for itself and I stand by what I know.

This is not to argue or flame you, just clarifying some Ukrainian history. Hope it gives you guys a better insight on what's going on here.

"This is the major behind the scene cause of the instability going on at the moment......it is a power struggle between the old guard of Soviet Russia and the new guard who wish to move the country forward."

Forget the soviets. They're long gone. I know I listed alot about ukrainian socialists in earlier posts but that is because so far I spent most of the time with them. They are not the major players. The main ones are Yanukovich and Yushenko, both are for "democracy".

I will repeat again; What we ahve here in ukrain is more of an oligarchy. There is no one left to bribe in the goverment. these people DO NOT want a soviet regime, it would ruin them and their private buisnesses they have going.

one thing you're right about though - it is a power struggle. It would be very sad to see violence overwhelm these people. The fighting though would be mainly on the right side of the Dniper. The left side...well...there isn't much there.

nice quote at the end. I like it.

EDIT: I will ven go as far as saying that neither one of the people trying to win these protests are doing this for the better of Ukrain. That's the sad part. They want the power for themselves first and formost, or so it widely seems. Most people i've talked to say that there needs to be a new force in Ukrain. One that's not part of the coalitions of Yanukovich and Yushenko. everyone knows these guys are croocks, much like veryone else in this damn goverement.
regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.


[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46

[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46]

Justin please clarify your question. Did you read my previous posts? One I posted not so long ago says the army is being pulled up to kiev to surround it. I sugest you read it for more info.

EDIT: I will try to compose a list of all the parties for you guys within the next 12 hours and arrange them to the coalitions they are part of.

regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.


[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46]

[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46]

I see. I must have missed something. I will go back and have another look.

A Turkish warship has just docked in Sevastople, Crimea. Turky is, as you all well know, in NATO. The reason for this - "a friendly visit". Sevastople harbor is home to two fleets - the Ukrainian black sea fleet, and the Russian black sea fleet. Sevastople can be looked at as the capitol of Crimea. Crimea itself opposes Yushenko. Things don't stop there.

On May 8th a few US navy ships are due to dock. US and NATO ships in crimea during this time in Ukraine...perfect time for friendly visits. Not just that but may I remind you that May 9th is victory day. I have been to Sevastople many times, I know the charecter of the people who live there very well. To them May 9th is a HUGE celebration. Having the US navy dock there at this time will be viewed as mockery. Russia will take it the same way, and in my opinion this is a very dirty move on Yushenko's part.

Furthermore - it seems the west is determined to keep their influence in Ukraine, and they seem to be making big moves here. This one is pretty much right in Russia's face.

During the orange revolution the rivalry between the two in the politics here was felt, but it was mutual. This is on a completely different scale now, and it has me worried. Another thread on this forum was talking about buildup of NATO forces near the Russian border;

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now we have a NATO navy vessel in Crimea. I'm not suggesting that they're getting ready for war with Russia, god no. But I think you guys catch my drift. NATO and the US have been trying to get bases inside Ukraine for ages, something Russia heavily opposes.

I recall someone earlier asking about influence in this revolution from other countries - I think your question will be answered very soon.

Regards,
Maestro


PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.



[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46]

Maestro,

so what your trying to say is that the two opposing political forces and their supporters are preparing to "face-off" against each other in Kiev, right?

In response to possible violence, the army has been ordered to the outside of the capital Kiev just in case of trouble they are close at hand to respond.

Now Turkey being a NATO member has docked in Sevastopol - is this so that they show a visible presence of NATO being there and watching whats going on or to possible pressure the government and/or supporters to watch what they are doing?

Could it also be taken that this move by NATO in Sevastopol could be a warning to Russia not to get directly involved in the possible scuffles that may arise?

If both parties are "pro demcoracy" why are we told that one is pro russia whilst the other is pro west? we see russia slowly going backward under Putin in regards to centralisation of power and state control of lots of things, and is this what they want to happen in Ukraine? I hope not.

I hope it all works out for they have much more in common with each other there than they ahve differences.....it is not like the Balkans, though Id hate to think of what might happen if trouble starts for it would easily pull in other nations.

Maestro, is the Russian shelling of a town near Sevastopol related to any of this? It happened at end of March. A Russian warship suddenly (and "accidentally") started shooting. They were lucky that nobody got killed.

WATS and a FLAG sir!!!Thank you for the updates.Best wishes of safety to you and yours.

Stay safe over there. Ukraine seems to be in the middle of a bigger game of chess between the US and Russia. Both have interests in your country and are not above maniupulatings events there to get their way. It does seem odd that the two main parties have even managed to coexist for so long as they seem to want to strangle each other. Good luck and lets hope for a peaceful resolution of the situation.

Happy Easter.

To melbourne

Faceoff, no. But if one side is preparing to go to violence it certainly seems to be Yushenko. Word has caught my ears (this is unconfirmed) that Ukrainian riot police resently recieved new tech and gear from the "west" (meaning europe in this context). Yushenko sees that his position is in jeopardy and he is not willing to go down so easily.

As for the army, there are many different reasons why they would be stationed there but I think you're hitting the main one right on top of the head.

As for the NATO ship - it is there to make NATO presence felt. But this move is mostly to put pressure on Russia and tell it to stay out (not that there is any threat of invasion from Russia, or ever was). Also this is done purely to mock and annoy Russia since Russia doesn't want NATO in Crimea. As you said Mel, this is a warning, and a very direct one (rather risky one too). One last speculation - since Sevastople remains heavily pro-russian this could also be a message for them to "get in line".

Why I put democratic in "" last time is because none of them represent any true form of democracy. Now just because one party here is pro russian does not mean it's anti-democratic man. If you think Putin is pulling the country back into a soviet style regime you are free to think so; but know that that is a very debatable topic and I would ask people participating in this thread not to start a discussion on it. My aim in this thread is to answer questions and post as much info as possible. I'm not taking sides on this thread. But again, if you think that russia is not democratic that's your opinion mate, not a fact.

I also would like to draw eveyone's attention to the fact that the man who is representing pure democracy, freedom, and is pro-western is also the man that is currently starting to act like a dictator and is preparing to use force to crush those who oppose him (despite the fact that they are doing the exact same thing he did when he came to power).

Thanks again for your concerns Mel. Much appreciated.

regards,
Maestro


PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.



[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46]

Originally posted by Hellmutt
Maestro, is the Russian shelling of a town near Sevastopol related to any of this? It happened at end of March. A Russian warship suddenly (and "accidentally") started shooting. They were lucky that nobody got killed.

Thank you very much Hellmutt! This is perfect. Thank you for putting in any info you can find. This is new to me. Apparently there wasn't too much of a fuss made about it.

I've read the thread, it's hard to draw much out of it. This is what I think;
- under no circumstances was the russian ship sending any message here to Ukraine. Russia would never shell sevastople to begin with to send a message. Why? because it's a pro russian city. It would make no sense whatsoever. The message would be - "cut the crap out or we will shell those who support us". knowing the low maintanace of the ships and their tech in the russian navy at this time This is more likely an accident than ever. A moron at the trigger is not the most unlikely scenario either. It's the crap the russian navy has going on with it atm.

Again, Crimea is pro russian so there is no reason to shell it. 'm glad no one got hurt either.

regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.

Originally posted by pavil
Stay safe over there. Ukraine seems to be in the middle of a bigger game of chess between the US and Russia. Both have interests in your country and are not above maniupulatings events there to get their way. It does seem odd that the two main parties have even managed to coexist for so long as they seem to want to strangle each other. Good luck and lets hope for a peaceful resolution of the situation.

Happy Easter.

Yup. Pavil sums it up. The parties will countinue their power struggle now, but as he said; this is turning out to be a larger game of chess between Russia and the west. During the orange revolution it was a mutual conflict, now it's kinda like a cold war inside Ukraine. Scarry to think off.

Happy Easter to you too pal.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.


[edit on 7-4-2007 by maestro46]

Info found at a "crimean" website- news.allcrimea.net (for those of you who speak russian). Turkey has docked a frigate, a tanker, and a sub. This was arranged through meetings between the ukrainian minister of defense (everybody revert back to the earlier post about him) and the turkish minister of defense. The reason for docking these ship here is the following; the turkish sailors will tour the city, visit the crimean war memorials and pay tribute to those that died fighting for Turkey at the time.

Perfect timing. Legit reason, however how long they will stay is not specified. I draw your attention, gentelmen, to the fact that the last time such tours were made by Americans and Greeks within Sevastople the exact dates of their leave were announced befor they ever arrived.

Now I'm by far no military expert but I know there are some lurking around here in these forums and I ask for your help. Could you please take a look at the Russian fleet in Sevastople, the Ukrainian fleet there too, and tell me how the turkish ships could tip the balance or what not.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I would be glad to answer any questions you have.

Alright, just as I promised - I would answer any questions you wish me to ask the people here and such. We had J come up with some questions to the people in kiev, I threw in a few of my own. I also turned Justin's question about the army a bit to make it fit the line of questions. I hope this satisfies you guys, I had to go through quiet a bit to get this info.

Below I will be listing my interviews for the day. I again repeat I am not voicing my opinion in this forum, I'm only supplying info. I will however be explaining some of the ideologies at work here and I don't want you guys to get confused thinking I'm backing them, I'm only explaining.

Interview with a "neutral protester"
This was a simple civilian. Rather aged, probably in his 50s or 60s.

Q - Which party out of these do you support? Are you a socialist? (He was standing deep in their crowd).

A - No, no i'm not.

Q - What are you protesting here for then?

A - To get all these protesting morons out of here, they're going to achieve nothing.

Q - But you relate most to the socialist party?

A - Yes.

Q - How has the socialist party helped you and what do you think your party will do for you and your family?

A - They have never done anything for me, they aren't doing anything now, and they never will. What we need is less of these goverment officials. Look how many we have right now; each forming his own thing causeing unrest, no wonder they can't get anything done. All these parties ever do is use you. They get all the benifit though.

Q - What is your vision of the future in the Ukraine? How would you like the country to be for your family now and your children in the future. What would you like to see?

A - No NATO, Ukraine needs to rely on themselves but first - we need order in the country, people must get paid properly and equaly, people should be equal. Through out the oligarchs, take their money and distribute it back to the people as reperations. Take their money, since they steal it all from the people, and put it towards healthcare and education and such.

Q - What are your major concerns with what is happening in the Ukraine at this moment? How does the current situation compare with what your expectations were once the Soviet Union dissolved?

A - My concern is all these protests. They're going nowhere and it's gonna bring nothing good. Once USSR disolved that was it, we were dead like we are now. Ukraine needs to join CIS and work together with Russia, Belarussia, and Kazhakstan. Together we will go a long way.

Q - What is your take on the actions of the Ukrainian army at the moment. Do you fear that they will escalate into a bloody conflict?

A - Unless order is restored here, there will be blood

Q - What is your reaction to what is going on in Crimea atm?

A - NATO ships need to leave and go mind their own buisness. They have no place here. As for the Russian ships I don't understand why we're trying to kick the Russian fleet out all the time. Let them stay, treat the nicely and in return we could get good gas deals from it no?

Q - Anything personal you would like to add?

A - We lived bad, we are living bad, and we'll probably be living even worse.


Regards,
Maestro



PS: I am very tired atm, I haven't gotten any sleep last night and I am in no condition to post anything and still make sense. I have gathered great info and you are in for a treat the moment I update. I'll do so when I wake up.


[edit on 7-4-2007 by maestro46]

The interview with a Russian monk

He was not protesting with the crownds. On my way to the center I ran into him, he was walking away from the center. I figured hearing the church's opinion on the matter would be very important since the church plays a big part in life here. His name is Dolgoruki-Simanski (I never heard a name like that befor). This monk does not belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, from the hand out he gave me I found out it was a private organization. I'm thinking this is also why he didn't say "Father" befor saying the rest of his name. If any atheists will be posting here; not a word about the church and the fact that this guy is a monk. Keep to the topic.

Q - Do you support any parties in all that is happening here, do you feel that any of them are better for the people than others?

A - No, I do not support any of them. Why would I, they killed my friend.

Q - They killed your friend? Can you please tell me about that?

A - Maksim Kurochkin, he was a good friend of mine. They shot him as soon as he walked out of the court building. I'm sure you're heard of this?

*(I don't know if this has made the news on cnn and such but do some reaserch if you could please, and e-mail anything you find; my e-mail is listed on my account description if you click on my name)*

- skipping ahead a bit

A - Oh and another thing, all these parties are just fighting for more power. None of them care about the people. They steal from the people. All of them are oligarchs, where do they get all those fancy cars, on their pay? I don't think so. All their sons go to insanely expensive foreign school, they live in mansions. Where did the money for that come from?

Q - What is your vision of the future in the Ukraine? How would you like the country to be? What would you like to see?

A - I want to see everyone living well. I want those who are supposed to be rich here to be rich instead of utterly poor, and those who aren't rightfully rich, their money needs to be taken from them and given to better improve the country; heakthcare, help to orphans, things like that.

Q - What are your major concerns with what is happening in the Ukraine at this moment? Do you fear this will lead to violence?

A - Force will be used, if anything. That is eaxactly why Timoshenko and Lucennko aren't protesting here in the center. They're not even gonna bother. You see, if these protest turn into riots then all the power passes to the president and martial law is imposed. Then they'll clean the streets out of all these guys (points at the crowds). They'll have people trying to provoce violence from the crowds. Then they'll get what they want.

Q - What is your reaction to the troops being pulled up to kiev?

A - Like I said, there will be fighting. Heavy losses on both sides. Many will die.

Q - How do you feel towards NATO ships docking in Crimea at this time?

A - It's nothing significant. What can they do?

Q - Do you think this is a possible provocation or mockery towards Russia?

A - Yes, could be so.

Q - And what about the fact that American ships are going to dock on May 8th and remain in the harbor through Victory Day?

A - I tell you this; sink our ships at the harbor entrance so none of theirs can pass. Don't let them in. (same as in Crimean war)

Here is what Dolgoruki-Simanski requested that I tell you guys aswell.

*Kiev is home to the Kievskaja Lavra*
en.wikipedia.org...
*What that link doesn't mention is that the dead burried in those caves (monks), their bodies are almost perfectly preserved. It's a miracle, that's the only way I can describe it. I have been there and seen it.*

A member of the Ukrainian goverment (what his position in it is was not specified to me) has bought land near the Lavra and started building his house there despite the warnings saying that such a project was a threat to the caves. April 1st, 2007, a section of the caves collapses. I believe that no one was hurt. There is NO mention of this in the media. This means only one thing; the goverment is covering it up atm. The Lavra caves are closed at this time. UNESCO is doing NOTHING. No issues raised with the goverment, and how they allowed such things I don't know. This is a perfect example of the power these oligarchs hold; once they want something, they'll get it, no matter what's in their way.

Regards,
Maestro