Keep this in mind...

That image speaks volumes

Peace

Regarding the original video - I found it trite and contrived.

And no, I haven't forgotten.

I just didn't need a cutesy little jingle to try and spell it out for me.

Before you rip into me and call me an anti-American, you should know I'm a military brat - from generations for enlisted family. My whole ancestry is riddled with soldiers who have fought for this country and given their lives to the Service.

What rankles my hide about this OP video is the LEVEL to which it sinks.

Classic, engineered psuedopatriotism written for the sympathetic and undereducated American who needs things spelled out for them.

Have we, as a nation, sunk so low we need to be TOLD how to feel?

Not to mention that fact watching the darn thing made me re-live that damn footage over and over and over. Endless repitition of tragedy is a rather sick thing to inflict on people. Unless of course, you're going for that angle of dramatic reinforcement.

Now, that might work for some - and if it strikes a chord with you to the core of your being, by all means, INDULGE. Not everyone is on the same page out there..

But me? No thanks.

Wartime patriotism should embolden the spirit instead of guilting it's constituents into support.

Might I recommend Carbon Leaf?

At least here the footage isn't parading around corpses and misery.



[edit on 13-3-2007 by GENERAL EYES]

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by GwionX
My eyes are WIDE OPEN --and backed with FACTS!
Not some stupid hotel holle pipedream.. you sicken me.

Was I even talking to you?

Such mature debate

Your reactionary style just shows how much thought you really put into this. What are your eyes wide open too exactly? You are so naive about the way things really operate. You can have your eyes open as wide as you like, but until you take the blinders off it won't make much difference.

I'm glad I sicken you btw, hope it felt good...

You wanna know what sickens me? The death of trillions of Human lives throughout history slaughtered, in the most horrific way you can think of, by governments to further their political and financial agendas.

Your government is not your country, your country is not your government. Think for yourself.

It's Hotel Hölle btw...

Don't bother with Gwion. It's already known that he's a neo-nazi.

(the blood BTW, is kind of an indirect effect, in all fairness. It's not like the US invented Sunni-Shiite rivalries.)
I'm too tired to offer mush of use, but I'm trying to see everything valid in the OP's intent. The song sucks IMO, the video too, but I admire your huevos in slapping us with it anyway. We are Americans, mostly, and world citizens, etc. We're in this together. Even people who write contrived jingles reviving the psyop, even people who insist on thrashing those who still buy it and those who latch onto every zany theory that fits their image of evil in DC.
Both sides can be pretty dumb. and yet both are human, we all are, and could stand to build bridges. our questions won't disappear with a song, especially one so blatantly manipulative. But neither will manipulative and abusive uses of "research" to prove the most cartoonish of evils convince the average Joe who might hum this tune.
We can all learn from the other side, engage, and so forth... lost the train of thot there.
Anyway, my .02 is let's talk, not just hurl insults.

I'm not supporting the OP but I will say this:

If you who accuse America of killing so many innocent people had your way we would have never gone into Iraq in the first place, right?

Then everything would have been peachy keen in your world because all the innocent people Saddam killed on his romp thru the Middle East would have been out of sight and out of mind. Of course he would have become a far more powerful dictator that could then control the vast majority of oil (yea, it's the same oil you use to fuel your cars, etc..) and then of course he would arm himself with nukes and chemical weapons. All the while killing off our allies and blackmailing the world for energy. Also, if you don't think he would align himself with terrorists and make even bigger plans I guess we can all just hold hands and eat a big bowl of Kashi cereal.

Another thing is these wonderful Islamic extremists that you believe will make peace if we just stopped bothering them. What a pipe dream that is! They want to kill us and drink from our skulls! No matter how many deals or how much we give in to them they will continue. The more you give in the more they will take! They want us dead and that is it!

I believe everyone has the right to speak out and appose what they feel is wrong but name calling and insults will never get you heard.

Originally posted by jbondo
Then everything would have been peachy keen in your world because all the innocent people Saddam killed on his romp thru the Middle East would have been out of sight and out of mind.

If we had such an open dictatorship, do you think it would be better for us to take care of it ourselves, or depend upon some foreign body to come in and do the work for us?

Realistically, no foreign country is going to invade another country unless it has something to gain for itself. This gain is the driving principle behind all military conquest, always has been.

Also, Saddam killed very few people compared to even the deaths caused by the UN sanctions over the 10 years or so between the first and current western wars there. Saddam's mass murder charges also appear to have been blown out of proportion by a factor of about 10 (at least at one point he was accused of killing some 2-3 million or some figure like that). I'm not taking up for the guy, it's just that the West has caused far more damage to Iraq than Iraq ever has, and we had absolutely no reason to invade on any such grounds of him being the mass murderer.

Originally posted by Joshua Crick
Then why don't you move. You aren't fit to be American.

It's laughable, you derailed your own post with this gem! Nothing else seems debateable to me now, and no intelligent conversation can take place about that campy vid after a statement like that. You set the tone,
"no debate", if you don't like it move! Pax Imperialis!

It's funny to me as soon as you say that your against the war, how people will automatically start to cut you down saying that you aren't American and that you don't support the troops!!! I think that you will find that every American on this board with dissent for their government does in fact Support the Troops!!! Hell yes, we support our fellow country men that are in service to this great nation!!! We just don't support the lying bastards politicians that sent them to war to die!!!!

Well what can i say except the painfully obvious?

If you feel so much that you HAVE to go kill some people to protect this country well then put up or shut up. Go get a gun NOW! We need you to protect us. Quick!!!

You should enroll immediately (just like Bush's family members or Cheney's kids...) instead of losing precious time posting in here. Comon man!! Practice what you preach!

Put your patriotism where your mouth is and go, walk fast... no: RUN to the nearest place where you can sign into the army.

Otherwise just dont bother us with your jingoism (look it up army-boy) and misplaced loyalties... this is a pathetic attempt, would you be just another incompetent disinfo guy for the Army?

Guys like you...only in America!!



PS: btw, the only way to support the troops is to get them back home and give them all the medical care they so badly need...

[edit on 13-3-2007 by WarLokK]

[edit on 13-3-2007 by WarLokK]

[edit on 13-3-2007 by WarLokK]

Originally posted by jbondo
I'm not supporting the OP but I will say this:

If you who accuse America of killing so many innocent people had your way we would have never gone into Iraq in the first place, right?

Then everything would have been peachy keen in your world because all the innocent people Saddam killed on his romp thru the Middle East would have been out of sight and out of mind. Of course he would have become a far more powerful dictator that could then control the vast majority of oil (yea, it's the same oil you use to fuel your cars, etc..) and then of course he would arm himself with nukes and chemical weapons. All the while killing off our allies and blackmailing the world for energy. Also, if you don't think he would align himself with terrorists and make even bigger plans I guess we can all just hold hands and eat a big bowl of Kashi cereal.

Another thing is these wonderful Islamic extremists that you believe will make peace if we just stopped bothering them. What a pipe dream that is! They want to kill us and drink from our skulls! No matter how many deals or how much we give in to them they will continue. The more you give in the more they will take! They want us dead and that is it!

I believe everyone has the right to speak out and appose what they feel is wrong but name calling and insults will never get you heard.

Oh yes, of course! America, # Yeah!
How do people this paranoid even leave the house? It must be quite the accomplishment to step out of your door during the day (assuming you do).

[edit on 13-3-2007 by DisappearCompletely]

Originally posted by jbondo
If you who accuse America of killing so many innocent people had your way we would have never gone into Iraq in the first place, right?

Which time in the 90's or 2k?
I wish the US never went into iraq the first time.
BTW, some other person mentioned that the reason US leaders invaded iraq the first time was to protect the saudi's, well G bush Sr admitted in a book he authored with Brent Scowcroft that the reason they went into iraq was to protect "our oil interests." Also, when the US threatened miltary action, sadam was willing to pull out of kuait and asked for 2 weeks for a full withdrawl, well good ole bush sr gave him one week and started bombing when the iraqi army was in retreat. The troop withdrawl was called "The Nightmare scenario."

Then everything would have been peachy keen in your world because all the innocent people Saddam killed on his romp thru the Middle East would have been out of sight and out of mind.

you seem to believe that the US has a role as the world police. well let me tell you that the US has been involved in counterinsugrancies, counterrevolutions, and full military intervention all across the globe, and has supported a very high number of facist right-wing client states and drug traffikers.

Of course he would have become a far more powerful dictator that could then control the vast majority of oil (yea, it's the same oil you use to fuel your cars, etc..) and then of course he would arm himself with nukes and chemical weapons.

Oh really? so you have evidence of this military build-up do you? you have witness testimony of him attempting to gain these weapons, yes?

If you support your troops, you would support the withdrawl of them from the war zone.

Why is it that when someone opposes the war in Iraq they are unpatriotic and unamerican, or don't support the troops? Because someone has made the moral decision to oppose the killing of innocents they are an 'unfit american'? Puhleaze. It remindes Me of school yard kids that don't know how to handle their differences. 'Well, You're a big poopy-pants!' A personal opinion does not = a personal attack. Being a patriot or a true American doesn't come from blindly and ignorantly following Our leaders. Pariotism comes from those who challenge their leaders authority and demand that they be held responsible for their lies and actions. These nimrods in office now represent Me and Our country, and poorly at that. I love the idea of The America that was drilled into My empty little head in elementary school, but that's all it is, an idea, just a great idea like Ghandi said. You wanna support Our troops? Support those who've returned without limbs, those who can't work due to PTSD and those who'll no longer have the chance at a normal life because of Iraq. God knows Our govt. isn't going to. How can anyone so enthusiastically declare this or any other war just when We are committing the most heinous of all crimes? The murder of children. By the grace of God or just plain dumb luck -We don't live in Iraq.

bsbrey11

I don't care who you are, what military you belong to, any of that. You aid in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands, you are responsible for your actions when the time comes.

I agree with you on all accounts Brey.

I'm just about fed up with people implying that I'm not an 'american' or I "don't support the troops" because I'm not for this pre-emptive crap doctrine/fabricated war.

My Sister was in the Army for quite a few years. (Now out raising kids) and her Husband has done two tours in Iraq so DON'T tell me I don't support the troops or Im not American.

One things that comforts me is my belief in the Bible.. I will not bear you down with the specific scripture but America's collective soul WILL be held accountable for the blood that's on her hands on ALL accounts and the "great men of the earth", by whos sorceries ALL nations were deceived will get the end they deserve. (It will not be the end they are expecting) These great men will even try and hide in the earth and this will not save them.

I say this out of love and grief but America is heading for judgement and all the NWO pawns that are leading her in that direction are just that.. delusional PAWNS in God's ultimate plan and purpose.

I don't intend to walk in delusion. I support and believe in my country and leaders but only in the context of the original plan laid out by our founding fathers.. PERIOD.

I will pray for my leaders that they will turn towards the truth, even if I don't like them but I will NOT support them in their delusional quest which is leading my beloved country into judgement!


Many of you will not understand this because this requires spiritual discerment but hopefully, eventually you will.. before it's too late.






[edit on 13-3-2007 by ViewFromTheStars]

Originally posted by GwionX
I am far from a war-monger.

Would you suggest we just fold like Spain did?

THAT is exactly what mujahdeen was counting on.

Ok, man...I am going to spell it out for ya.

The biggest beef Al Queda/ mujahdeen had with the USA was the fact that we were in Saudi Arabia... Ask yourself: why were we there? Why did we need to be there? Oil? Nope..we got oil from Saudi for decades.
Because the Saudi moderates wanted our protection? Yes.

From Who? Saddam Hussain

He had already invaded Kuiwait, and attempted to invade Iran before that. He showed no qualms about firing Scuds into Saudi Arabia during the first gulf war.

As long as he was in power the threat of aggression was there. A whole generation of Radical Muslims hated the fact that Infidels were in the lands around Mecca. Hate it so much they are willing to die and kill on religious principle.

What is the End game scenario for this?

Unseat defiant despotic leaders (Hussain, Tailiban) stabilize the region and eliminate the threat of Iraqi invasion to neighboring countries.

We are almost there. Then we can leave. Leave Iraq, Saudi, Afganistan, let them live peacably amongst themselves.

It isn't to go kill Muslims. It is to end that particular cycle of hate, once and for all.

Your 'facts' are historically inaccurate.

We've been in Saudi Arabia since 1974 after the oil embargo. We implemented JECOR that year
link We NEEDED to be there so an oil embargo like that of 1973 didn't happen again.

We were there for the oil from the start. Do some reading and research.

So yeah, if history started during Desert Storm, then I guess you're right. Unfortunately, that was 1991 meaning there is a lot of history before that.

And you're argument about the mujahdeen wanting us to leave is as old as the Vietnam War when government officials kept saying that Communism would sweep Southeast Asia and the South-Pacific. Well, we lost Vietnam and that didn't happen. It's just another lame argument to keep the our boys dying and keeping the pockets of the war profiteers brimming with money.

Also, for those that like to believe the illusion that we're fighting for 'freedom' since we lost in Vietnam what freedoms did we lose? I mean, wouldn't we lose some freedoms if we're fighting for them? That was the case in Vietnam too. We were fighting the Communist scourge.

Some people just can't seem to figure out that the threat of Communism and the USSR were wildly exagerated which led to the Cold War and all the proxy wars all over the world (thank you Paul Wolfowitz and Team B!). These same people are using 'Terrorism' in the exact same way they used 'Communism' to expand the American empire and duping a bunch of Americans along the way with fear and words like 'liberty', 'freedom', and 'democracy'. Although, I don't find that entirely suprising since you just told us that we weren't in Saudi Arabia for the oil in the first place despite historical records to the contrary. That's what happens when you watch Fox News for a history lesson. Read up on your history, you have much to learn.

It's also incredibly naive to think we're going to leave the region after we stabilize it. We have an ever-expanding empire and our presence in more and more countries grows (whether it's reported or not). This is the American global domination project in pursuit of corporate interests (ie cheap labor, natural resources etc) it has nothing to do with removing tyrants or giving people freedom. If that were the case, why haven't we invaded Mexico yet?

Lastly, my loyalty is to the Constitution, the principles that lie therein, and to the principles of our Founding Fathers. I'm not loyal to imperialists or globalists.

I agree with everybody. You guys are okay. But dang, our hard arguments have scared off all the normal 'patriots" and 9/11 coincidence theorists, Not even the brave OP who's name I've already forgotten has popped back in to measure the #storm yet. I'll check back tonight, but that lokks kinda sad. He tried to buld a bridge, but used a government-issue pre-fab drawbridge and hit us in the head with it and then scuttled off in embarrassment? Made me drop all my lumber and nails.

This Vid is IMHO totally crap.
For those who don't know what realy is going on behind the curtains.

99% of people have no clue how the world works , the perceived evil we are bombarded with is either a fabrication or controlled.

Wars started for finacial and political gain , by the people you would die for.
You see the tip of the iceberg , you see the pictures of the coffins coming home.

i suggest you go away and do some homework before you try and stir up emotion and sympathy here my friend.

yes i feel for the troops god help them , who doesn't , but you are sadly mistaken if you think Islamic fundamentalist's are the biggest threat to your future

Originally posted by derdy

Originally posted by GwionX
I am far from a war-monger.

Would you suggest we just fold like Spain did?

THAT is exactly what mujahdeen was counting on.

Ok, man...I am going to spell it out for ya.

The biggest beef Al Queda/ mujahdeen had with the USA was the fact that we were in Saudi Arabia... Ask yourself: why were we there? Why did we need to be there? Oil? Nope..we got oil from Saudi for decades.
Because the Saudi moderates wanted our protection? Yes.

From Who? Saddam Hussain

He had already invaded Kuiwait, and attempted to invade Iran before that. He showed no qualms about firing Scuds into Saudi Arabia during the first gulf war.

As long as he was in power the threat of aggression was there. A whole generation of Radical Muslims hated the fact that Infidels were in the lands around Mecca. Hate it so much they are willing to die and kill on religious principle.

Your 'facts' are historically inaccurate.

We've been in Saudi Arabia since 1974 after the oil embargo. We implemented JECOR that year

How is the Joint Economic Commission Office Riyadh (JECOR) going to stop an invasion by the Iraqi Army?

I think you took my words out of context. I was clearly referring to the unprecendented decision by King Fahd to allow U.S. Military Troops to be Based in Saudi Arabia beginning in 1990. This due to the threat of Saddam Hussain. www.britannica.com...

Nice try though.

What I am saying is historically accurate. I apologize if I wasn't specific enough in my previous post.

link We NEEDED to be there so an oil embargo like that of 1973 didn't happen again.

Good link. Very informative.

We were there for the oil from the start. Do some reading and research.

I need to do reseach to realize Saudi has oil? That Oil is their major trade commodity? Should I also research South Africa and their relationship with Diamond mines? India with Tea? No offense but ...forgive me if this is less than "eye-opening."

So yeah, if history started during Desert Storm, then I guess you're right. Unfortunately, that was 1991 meaning there is a lot of history before that.

Well, the history of US combat troops in Saudi Arabia (the land of Mecca) started in 1990, ya know the event that I was talking about in my first post. The event that enraged a generation of Radical Saudi muslims, and the mujahdeen.

And you're argument about the mujahdeen wanting us to leave is as old as the Vietnam War when government officials kept saying that Communism would sweep Southeast Asia and the South-Pacific. Well, we lost Vietnam and that didn't happen. It's just another lame argument to keep the our boys dying and keeping the pockets of the war profiteers brimming with money.

I do not concur, but I respect your opinion.

Also, for those that like to believe the illusion that we're fighting for 'freedom' since we lost in Vietnam what freedoms did we lose?

Did we lose? Or was the message clearly sent. Hindsight is 20/20. I don't see much of a consorted communist threat anymore.

Some people just can't seem to figure out that the threat of Communism and the USSR were wildly exagerated which led to the Cold War and all the proxy wars all over the world (thank you Paul Wolfowitz and Team B!).

That statement might be true if history began in 1974, So yeah, I guess you are right. Unfortunately cold war history started long before 1974. Mc Carthy was a hardline excentric, and so were team b to a point, but the threat was very real. Although influencial it isn't like the hardliners were the only voice on the matter.

These same people are using 'Terrorism' in the exact same way they used 'Communism' to expand the American empire and duping a bunch of Americans along the way with fear and words like 'liberty', 'freedom', and 'democracy'.

How did we expand the American "Empire" during the cold war again?

Although, I don't find that entirely suprising since you just told us that we weren't in Saudi Arabia for the oil in the first place despite historical records to the contrary.

I do apologise for *grossly over-estimating* some reader's ability to put my initial post in context. I wasn't talking about commerce, I was talking about Military troops for "protection" as requested by King Fayd in 1990.

That's what happens when you watch Fox News for a history lesson. Read up on your history, you have much to learn.

I will work on history. You work on reading comprehension. K?
BTW: I don't watch Fox news. You are jumping to conclusions.

It's also incredibly naive to think we're going to leave the region after we stabilize it. We have an ever-expanding empire and our presence in more and more countries grows (whether it's reported or not).

Here is one of those misinfo reports:Last U.S. unit leaves Saudi Arabia findarticles.com...

This is the American global domination project in pursuit of corporate interests (ie cheap labor, natural resources etc) it has nothing to do with removing tyrants or giving people freedom. If that were the case, why haven't we invaded Mexico yet?

I feel pretty free in Mexico, I go there ALL_THE_TIME. It does make me love America more everytime I go.

Tu piensa usted es elegante, pero pienso que usted es un chachalaka. Me disculpo.

Lastly, my loyalty is to the Constitution, the principles that lie therein, and to the principles of our Founding Fathers. I'm not loyal to imperialists or globalists.

I love the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I think the Patriot Act needs serious revision, but I "get" it's gist. However, changing gears a bit--

Through technology and progress, economicaly:The world has become flat. Either America embraces it and learns to thrive in the new landscape, or we become a "Hermit nation" waiting for eventual invasion by an aggressor.

Mindless flag waving is not patriotism. Who do you think armed Iraq in the first place? For every American soldier that dies there are probably five or ten thousand Iraqi's that either die or are injured (very conservative estimate). How you can look at children with their bodies blown apart and the continuous day to day suffering that the Iraqi people endure due to their "liberation", and think "God Bless America". Take a look at who is making money "bringing democracy" to Iraq. America, under the Bush regime, has created hell on earth. This is not the America that was once repected throughout the world.

It's hard to believe that people like the OP still exist. Their scarcity is my joy.