Blackwater Grizzly APC

Blackwater presents the GRIZZLY™ – the world’s only Armored Personnel Carrier intended to counter the most lethal threats in the modern urban combat environment.

The GRIZZLY™ incorporates the Blackwater High Threat Armor Protection System© (patent pending). This state-of-the-art technology is an exceptional armor system unmatched in the urban APC market. The Blackwater High Threat Armor Protection System is engineered to defeat projectiles up to .50 caliber and to provide an IED-survivable envelope.

The GRIZZLY™ is constructed of AR500, the best armored steel in the industry. The passenger compartment walls are angled to deflect the deadly blast waves produced by mines, rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) and improvised explosive devices (IEDs).

Blackwater USA as you may or may not know is a PMC (Private military company) AKA Mercs, a rather large one in the US. Their soldiers are currently in Iraq and Afghanistan among other places. The same company that vice chairman was reported to have said

the company is ready to move towards providing security professionals up to brigade size for humanitarian efforts and low intensity conflicts

At a international conference in Amman, Jordan 2006


So this is a Armored Personal Carrier made by and for a private army. I find it interesting to see PMC starting to design such equipment.

Some more info

• High Threat Armor Protection System© — defeats up to
.50 caliber AP
• AR500 steel armor
• Fighting ports (5): two on each side, one rear
• Transparent armor windows defeat 7.62 x 51mm NATO Ball standard;
NIJ Level 3; European B6; UL Level 5


• 300+ hp diesel motor
• Cruising speeds over 65 miles per hour
• Range greater than 350 miles

• Roof mounted turrets; LMG; HMG; GLMG; TOW


It hards to compare to something created by nations with budgets running in the billions. But if I was working for a PMC and my choice was this or a Toyota SUV I think I would pick the Grizzly.

Whats everyone's views on this APC or even the fact that PMCs are now developing such systems?




www.blackwaterusa.com...

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Quote Reference (review link)


[edit on 6-3-2007 by UK Wizard]

It's not a bad looking peice of kit over all.

If the APC were truely made for troop protection the windows wouldn't be as large. If you look at another APC there's a reason why there arn't any windows. 20mm AP or HE would tear those windows apart not to mention a smooth bore barrel of a .50.

It reminds me of the Iala we had over seas.

Yeah the windows are a much different approach then most military designs. Alot of APC designs simple dont even have windows for the passengers or firing ports.

Ive seen older Russian designs of APCs with firing ports windows but they were so small you couldnt really do much but spray straight out of them. There simply wasnt any field of vision and most of the time I think they were just left closed by troops because of that.

Blackwater seemed to have choose Visibility and by extension offensive capability since now they are likely to have up to 5 more guns laying down suppressive fire as they high tail it out of dodge.

But the are indeed making sacrifices in protection

Shadow, like you said "still beats a Toyota".
Besides, it's not like the PMC/PDS guys are going to pay for the "Grizzly" with their own money.
Looks like those windows do have firing ports, or is that just me seeing things ?

I guess the idea behind those huge windows is so that they can open them, and "open up" while moving through an urban terrain.

i'm pretty sure that a '50 and/or a 20mm+ will go through an uparmored hummer as well, meaning that you'r not going to be safe in either of those.
Atleast this one has some kind of designed/engineered IED protection.

just my 2c

Best regards.

I agree, I would rather ride in that than in a Humvee, windows or not. When you look at it, I think that they were sacrificing a little protection for speed, I'd like to see a tracked APC go 65+mph on paved roadway. Lets face it, not much will stand up to a 20mm AP round, sure if you want to have 20 tins more armor, but this is a good quick moving vehicle. Besides, I always that those Blackwater guys are crazy. -muzz

One has to read the promotional text very carefully. Their basic premise is that this Grizzly was the "first APC designed against the threats of an urban environment" (a statement that in itself is not entirely untrue, since military APCs are developed for a larger mission envelope). That also explains the large windows since PMCs still mainly fulfill security duties, and the 3D battlefield of an urban environment needs a good situational awareness.

Much more interesting however is the implication of this development. Basically it means that the PMCs are starting to "emancipate", that they try to become a budget army. Neither could they afford nor even lay their hands on proper modern military gear, and I bet this "Grizzly" is nothing more than an armored cabin on a conventional truck chassis. But it gives the Rent-A-Soldiers more capabilities to fight on their own, in which is described as "low-intensity conflict" in the second quote.

Basically that is the idea many magazines have headlined over the last years: the western societies have become so horrified of losing their own troops that the idea of mercenaries becomes VERY attractive again to proper and "rogue" governments/factions. Its easy: send in a bunch of failed existences to the hotspots of the world, ask no questions and pay them nicely through hidden channels. If they succeed, job done. If they F*** up, deny any connections and release a statement condemning the immoral mercenary business.

A nice way to wash your hands in innocence, true Pontius Pilatus style.

Interesting post on PMCs Lonestar24

Im intrigued by the possible future capablities of such companies. Some could very well become very large multi-billion dollar international corporations, depending on future political "climates" Since they have already proven to be able to handle jobs NATO at a fraction of the cost.

Now they are never going to be on par with the big guys on the block in terms of military power. But if they grow in size and are equiped right they may be able to hold there own with small nations in the future especially when you consider there could be mutliple very large PMC in the future.

I would like to discuss this topic more if anyone else out there finds it revelant to the possiblity that companies like BlackWater and I have heard that there are more, could possibly be training foreign troops right here in the good ol USA to be use against the american people when they put in Martial Law?

Your thoughts on this issue?

Just found a good video, here it is if you have not seen it before.

Video Link : video.google.com...

[edit on 14-3-2007 by PHARAOH1133]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Blackwater presents the GRIZZLY™ – the world’s only Armored Personnel Carrier intended to counter the most lethal threats in the modern urban combat environment.

The GRIZZLY™ incorporates the Blackwater High Threat Armor Protection System© (patent pending). This state-of-the-art technology is an exceptional armor system unmatched in the urban APC market. The Blackwater High Threat Armor Protection System is engineered to defeat projectiles up to .50 caliber and to provide an IED-survivable envelope.

The GRIZZLY™ is constructed of AR500, the best armored steel in the industry. The passenger compartment walls are angled to deflect the deadly blast waves produced by mines, rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) and improvised explosive devices (IEDs).

Blackwater USA as you may or may not know is a PMC (Private military company) AKA Mercs, a rather large one in the US. Their soldiers are currently in Iraq and Afghanistan among other places. The same company that vice chairman was reported to have said

the company is ready to move towards providing security professionals up to brigade size for humanitarian efforts and low intensity conflicts

At a international conference in Amman, Jordan 2006


So this is a Armored Personal Carrier made by and for a private army. I find it interesting to see PMC starting to design such equipment.

Some more info

• High Threat Armor Protection System© — defeats up to
.50 caliber AP
• AR500 steel armor
• Fighting ports (5): two on each side, one rear
• Transparent armor windows defeat 7.62 x 51mm NATO Ball standard;
NIJ Level 3; European B6; UL Level 5


• 300+ hp diesel motor
• Cruising speeds over 65 miles per hour
• Range greater than 350 miles

• Roof mounted turrets; LMG; HMG; GLMG; TOW


It hards to compare to something created by nations with budgets running in the billions. But if I was working for a PMC and my choice was this or a Toyota SUV I think I would pick the Grizzly.

Whats everyone's views on this APC or even the fact that PMCs are now developing such systems?




www.blackwaterusa.com...

mod edit: changed to external quote tags

Quote Reference (review link)


[edit on 6-3-2007 by UK Wizard]

There is a 'hidden' story in the IRAQ war not being mentioned, and that is that very 'costly' and sophisticated American tanks have been rendered useless by very smart and capable foes.

Way back in WW2 there was a device invented to disable tanks of every sort, this "Home-Made" device (A Military Pipe-Bomb of sorts.) This device is about 2 to 3 feet in length, about 2 inches round, a very skilled Military explosives expert packs it with a certain explosive into a "shaped-charge" at the tail of the bomb is 1 inch balls of copper intermixed with the "shaped-charge" this blast has rendered at least 3 American tanks useless.

The blast can easily blow through 4 inch thick armor, meanwhile once the explosion goes through the tank it then explodes the Molten-Copper as shrapnel, destroying not only the inside of the tank, but of course it's occupants too.

I'm not sure what the official name of this device is, I'm researching it.

So much for costly High-Tech tanks.

www.globalsecurity.org...

It is interesting to see blackwater operate, and in a way I can't help but smile....

the fact that blackwater is even as involved and visible as they are is wonderful for sane freedom loving americans... I'll explain why i promise!

Plainly put all the effort the clinton administration and jack boot janet reno went through to demonize militias and civilian gun ownership in general this administration has more or less undone through backing itself into corners.

Blackwater being a private army and being mentioned on cnn as "one of the good guys" is inestimably useful to the american public.

however it is insanelly dangerous and bad for the american public as well. As this administration is activelly hiring paramilitary combat forces that by nature operate on US soil it makes for a ready pool of people to do dirty work when they want domestic or foreign "agitators" silenced.

THe fact that they are producing their own materiel is hardly surprising as most of the PMC's that the us government hires are more or less owned by giant industrial conglomerates either outright or through shell holdings.
Which is part of what makes them dangerous to the american public. Eventual these PMC's have to come home and then the boards of GE and halliburton and the like might decide they like having a military force on hand.

NOw not that I like PETA in the slightest but the first time they break into a mega corp testing lab to free test animals and one of these corporate militaries mows them down we could have a serious problem if the judicial system backs them in their use of force.

As to the quality of purpose built merc equipment I think if the mercenary trend continues you will see the quality of their gear sky rocket in porportion to the average military.

As is in iraq they seem to be jumping on any technical advancement that gives them an edge... such as dragonskin and blended metal bullets. dragonskin has been railroaded by corrupt officials in our own logistics and purchasing pipeline for the military but mercs are using it quite a bit from what I understand. And blended metal bullets are forbidden by the laws of war for a national armed force but mercenaries can use them and other nasty toys for the simple fact that they have no status under the laws of war and are therefor not bound by said laws.

Originally posted by roguetechie

Blackwater being a private army and being mentioned on cnn as "one of the good guys" is inestimably useful to the american public.

however it is insanelly dangerous and bad for the american public as well. As this administration is activelly hiring paramilitary combat forces that by nature operate on US soil it makes for a ready pool of people to do dirty work when they want domestic or foreign "agitators" silenced.

A- Can you give examples of Blackwater or any other private security company conducting paramilitary ops on US soil?

B- Can you explain how the folks that comprise these outfits(i.e. former military, law enforcement) who love their country would be interested in having any part in rounding up their countrymen(and examples showing that they exhibit any characteristics/tendencies indicating such).

these guys/gals are over in Iraq and Afghanistan risking their lives because they believe in their cause. If you didn't believe in what you were doing would $100,000-150,000 be enough incentive for you to get maimed or killed?

Originally posted by BlueRaja

Originally posted by roguetechie

Blackwater being a private army and being mentioned on cnn as "one of the good guys" is inestimably useful to the american public.

however it is insanelly dangerous and bad for the american public as well. As this administration is activelly hiring paramilitary combat forces that by nature operate on US soil it makes for a ready pool of people to do dirty work when they want domestic or foreign "agitators" silenced.

A- Can you give examples of Blackwater or any other private security company conducting paramilitary ops on US soil?

B- Can you explain how the folks that comprise these outfits(i.e. former military, law enforcement) who love their country would be interested in having any part in rounding up their countrymen(and examples showing that they exhibit any characteristics/tendencies indicating such).

these guys/gals are over in Iraq and Afghanistan risking their lives because they believe in their cause. If you didn't believe in what you were doing would $100,000-150,000 be enough incentive for you to get maimed or killed?

No offence mate, but that is hell of alot of money, specially if you consider that those so called "mercs" have been doing the same job in the past (~8-20 years) for alot less money than that.

people kill and get killed for amounts of money as large as that.
And I would beg to differ that they are "risking their lives because they believe in their cause.", I suggest you go to your local bar, and maybe try and talk to one of those PMC/PDS guys, they'll tell you how much they believe in that so called "cause".
The only "cause" that I have heard of, are their buddies that got KIAed (RIP) over there.


Best regards,
AG

That is a lot of money, and obviously it's an incentive to be there playing the odds. I somehow doubt that the numbers of contractors that are there, would be there, if many (if not most) didn't feel some connection with what they were doing. That's not enough money to allow you to not have to work again, or take care of long term medical bills. Many of these guys have families, that I'm sure they'd prefer to return home to, and their salary isn't enough to secure them in the event of their demise, but it is enough for them to make calculated risks. If they completely didn't believe in the purpose that might play into their decision making matrix.

It's true that people kill or are killed for those sums, but people are killed for their sneakers, jackets, football team affiliation(fans in the wrong place), listening to the wrong music. Criminals are more inclined to do these things for little reward, but military and law enforcement types on average have a little more character, integrity, and professionalism than those sorts. Yes there are bad apples in any organization, but they aren't the rule.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
A- Can you give examples of Blackwater or any other private security company conducting paramilitary ops on US soil?

B- Can you explain how the folks that comprise these outfits(i.e. former military, law enforcement) who love their country would be interested in having any part in rounding up their countrymen(and examples showing that they exhibit any characteristics/tendencies indicating such).

these guys/gals are over in Iraq and Afghanistan risking their lives because they believe in their cause. If you didn't believe in what you were doing would $100,000-150,000 be enough incentive for you to get maimed or killed?

To respond to these three questions:

A: Currently in the US I cannot give any documentary evidence of this occuring. However look at the former USSR and you can see the potential. The russian mafiosi use the available pool of highly trained intelligence and specwar guys for their own agendas on a pay for play basis. I never once said this was happening as we speak just that it has potential to happen.

B: While I wish your sentiments were accurate I happen to know current and former spec ops and other military personnel. While most have a deeply ingrained sense of moralism even some of the moral ones see capitalism as nearly a second religion. And in the free market economy that translates to them being willing to soldier for corporate wages as long as the company doesn't ask them to committ "treason" or harm the US two or three have plainly told me they'd shoot someone trying to destroy corporate property without any moral qualms.

C: The Ones I know that did tours as PMC's were to a man NOT there because they "believed" in the cause. They went back as a way to make a nest egg to transition them back to civilian life, pay for their kids education, or other purelly monetary reasons. Not a single one of them I talked to believe one bit in what is going on over there. This is not to say that this is the rule among pmc's, it is just what I have been told by the people I know.

I would like to note however that all of these guys I know are not sociopathic killers or greed blinded fools. Instead they are mostly highly intelligent and extremelly competent people that are interested in getting paid a fair amount for their considerable experience.

I didn't write my last post to insinuate that any of this was imminent etc it was more of informed speculation about what could come about because of our choice to rely so heavilly on PMC's in our current war.

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[edit on 23-3-2007 by UK Wizard]

too slow needs more horsepower.

for urban envroments, you need something comparable to the excessive weight .. 300hp aint enough.

they need like 450hp or so.. then itll be like as fast as a normal car would be

The Grizzly was recently featured on the show "Future Weapons" on the Discover channel. It was shown mounted with a automated "Hammer" gun system. The Hammer is basically a pair remote operated "Auto Assault 12 '" full auto 12ga shotguns. A interesting weapon in its own right when paired with the new frag 12 grenades rounds seeing that in secs you can put 60 plus mini frag grenades downrange.

The Grizzly shown had much smaller side windows now then the ones previously shown. They revealed some new info on the basic shape showing that the hull is infact a diamond shape. A interesting design and one I cant say I've seen used before in APCs though im no expert.

Basic physics will tell you a diamond shape bottom is much better for deflecting a blast underneath then any flat bottom design of equal armour. Most of the blast energy is deflected away from the crew.


I would like to see a slat armour option on it. Its low tech I know but its proven, cheap and takes most of the bite out of shape charges like those found in RPGs.

YEah I was highly impressed with what they showed on future weapons. Overall I think it is a very capable vehicle. And an especially cool example of a smaller company designing something to fit it's unique needs.

Originally posted by roguetechie



B: While I wish your sentiments were accurate I happen to know current and former spec ops and other military personnel. While most have a deeply ingrained sense of moralism even some of the moral ones see capitalism as nearly a second religion. And in the free market economy that translates to them being willing to soldier for corporate wages as long as the company doesn't ask them to committ "treason" or harm the US two or three have plainly told me they'd shoot someone trying to destroy corporate property without any moral qualms.

I'd wager that the majority would have issues with shooting a fellow American merely for money. If by destroy corporate property you mean an armed attack(which is what they're hired to protect against over there), then I'd agree, but not for vandalism or dissenting opinion. You have to look at the context of their statements about defending corporate property. If I was working as a contractor overseas, and my job was to protect site A, and there were folks trying to attack it, I wouldn't have qualms about shooting them either. That's a far cry from ever entertaining the notion of conspiring against fellow Americans for a 2-3X military pay raise.

[edit on 28-3-2007 by BlueRaja]

A couple of weeks a show on the Discovery Channel "Future Weapons" showed the Grizzly. The capablilities of this truck is much better than the HUMVEE. Had a V-shaped bottom to help the power of a blast from say an IED to go out and around rather than through the bottom of the truck.

Blackwater was an unstable and very corrupt society when I started helpnig the 'Katrina' victim's. The PTMB are very unconsolidated when it comes to the effect's of taking "Missionaries" into thier affiliated efforts of saving a population of the USA.
New Orleans is not right to this day, and will probably never be right for the people that want too stay where they have lived all thier lives. If you remember right, there was a major episode that had taken place with one of the families that had lived in the french quater of NO. The Militants, (Blackwater) excused them from thier home , (Making them Homeless) and comandeered the apartment they lived in, they took all thier 'Well kept property' and thru it out the balcony window onto the street.
Shortly after, they managed to kill 2 or 3 teen's by saying it was justifiable homicide and got away with it because the G's gave them a right to kill after the martial law was implicated.
I believe it has been a long time coming that these people were brought to justice and that thye are stopped by us ,(The public) from wrongful, self explanatory, goverment justified , "Homocide"!!
Great thread, should go well with the 'KAtrina' Vict's, they were there to help , but actually they terrorized.