Templar knights and Freemasons

Originally posted by Rotator
Did they change the wording of the Order to suit their needs?

So the Church would still like to have us all believe but it was not so.

Originally posted by sweftl337
Reagan was also a Catholic.

The only President ever to have been a Catholic was John F. Kennedy.

G HW Bush is a Mason and you may ask the Brothers at the P2 Lodge and Monti Carlo to clear this up for you.

Neither George H.W. Bush nor the members of P2 Lodge are Masons.

The only President ever to have been a Catholic was John F. Kennedy.

What ceremony was conducted upon the passing of Reagan? It was Catholic! When people pass over, it is usually customary to respect those who died with something appropriate to what were their belief's while still alive.

Neither George H.W. Bush nor the members of P2 Lodge are Masons.

You are not denying then that what I said is true. You merely make the claim that he's not "regular" but seem to assume that those who are regular are somehow also not members of something else quite "irregular". Masonic Brother's are being hoodwinked by their own Brothers just go ask Lucio Gelli (in Italy) who is still running the show.

[edit on 28-2-2007 by sweftl337]

Originally posted by sweftl337


What ceremony was conducted upon the passing of Reagan? It was Catholic!

Actually, it was Episcopalian.

You are not denying then that what I said is true. You merely make the claim that he's not "regular" but seem to assume that those who are regular are somehow also not members of something else quite "irregular". Masonic Brother's are being hoodwinked by their own Brothers just go ask Lucio Gelli (in Italy) who is still running the show.

OK, let me spell it out for you:

P2 Lodge are not "Masonic Brothers". None of their ceremonies, which have been published, bear any resemblance to Freemasonry. Lucio Gelli was expelled from Freemasonry in the mid-1970's, thirty years ago.

It should also be noted that it was the Grand Orient of Italy who first complained to the police about P2's criminal activities, but these complaints were ignored. It was 5 years later when the scandal broke out and people began blaming Freemasonry, even though Freemasonry had been trying to shut down P2 for years.

Lastly, P2 is a far right nationalistic organization. Like the Mafia, it admits Italians only, not Reagans.

Actually, it was Episcopalian.

It was Episcopalian by name only. If you are Anglican today you are part of the Catholic Church but an Anglican by name only. The controlling forces are still the same and that is the crux of the matter today. Reagan also had another interesting connection with the Vatican, in which he did something truly dasterdly which might have the Founding Fathers of America tossing and turning in their graves. Can you think of what that something is without me having to spell it out for you?

OK, let me spell it out for you: P2 Lodge are not "Masonic Brothers". None of their ceremonies, which have been published, bear any resemblance to Freemasonry. Lucio Gelli was expelled from Freemasonry in the mid-1970's, thirty years ago.

Lucio been offically expelled but you seem to know very little about what really goes on from behind the scenes. Here's what happened: a while back our brothers decided it was time to make anew a fresher and more acceptable appearence for Freemasonry. So basically, it was decided then to ensure that more traditional methods were used. One of these methods was to provide the appearance that the corruption is no longer so widespread and this also meant creating a wonderful show for everyone (particularly to convince other Masons) by "offically" removing people like Lucio Gelli. But I must inform you Brother that you are no different than many other 33'rds who have bought into this rouse. Nothing has changed.

It should also be noted that it was the Grand Orient of Italy who first complained to the police about P2's criminal activities, but these complaints were ignored. It was 5 years later when the scandal broke out and people began blaming Freemasonry, even though Freemasonry had been trying to shut down P2 for years.

P2 is not the only lodge that is irregular and it still has members who are also part of regular lodges. This part you seem to just be overlooking.

Lastly, P2 is a far right nationalistic organization. Like the Mafia, it admits Italians only, not Reagans.

Please do not fall prey to the left/right 'isms'. You are certainly more capable to provide an argument then stooping to that level.

Originally posted by sweftl337

The only President ever to have been a Catholic was John F. Kennedy.

What ceremony was conducted upon the passing of Reagan? It was Catholic! When people pass over, it is usually customary to respect those who died with something appropriate to what were their belief's while still alive.

Neither George H.W. Bush nor the members of P2 Lodge are Masons.

You are not denying then that what I said is true. You merely make the claim that he's not "regular" but seem to assume that those who are regular are somehow also not members of something else quite "irregular". Masonic Brother's are being hoodwinked by their own Brothers just go ask Lucio Gelli (in Italy) who is still running the show.

[edit on 28-2-2007 by sweftl337]

No, it wasn't Catholic. It was Episcopalian as mentioned here. "High Church" Anglican/Episcoplian services are very similar in appearance to a Catholic Mass. Honestly, many Anglican/Episcopalian services are more formal than many Catholic Masses today, which have a lot of liturgical innovation which strays from the norms dictated by the Church.

apparently this man will not rest until the former president comes back from the dead and converts to catholicism ...

Your view on history in this matter, is well.. frankly dead wrong my friend. Cut your losses on this one, P2 does not associate with Masonry, Reagan was not Catholic, he was Mason, but whats wrong with that? .. And GWB is still not a Mason, nor is he a member of P2 or any irregular Masonic organization. He was Skull and Bones though, so have fun making a conspiracy out of that.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
apparently this man will not rest until the former president comes back from the dead and converts to catholicism ...

Your view on history in this matter, is well.. frankly dead wrong my friend. Cut your losses on this one, P2 does not associate with Masonry, Reagan was not Catholic, he was Mason, but whats wrong with that? .. And GWB is still not a Mason, nor is he a member of P2 or any irregular Masonic organization. He was Skull and Bones though, so have fun making a conspiracy out of that.

You're trolling about and laughing is a sure sign that you disregard much of what has been said on this thread. All you have done is fling dirt into the faces of those whom you claim are dead wrong, yet you add little to the actual debate. I stand clear on some very deep issues which are not comical in the least.

The test has more than just begun for on the other thread regarding 9-11 and building #7 which I started I have yet to see any one of you brilliant folk post one bit, just one single sample of evidence proving that you truly care about truth. You can speak of love and charity all day if you like but we shall see. I personally know G H.W Bush is a Mason and that he's also a K.O.M and also a Satanist. Do you think your Lodges somehow are more knowledgeable than are his?

Please do keep on laughing because what you all call regular Freemasonry today, is what the Prussian Freemasons called 'irregular' and thus you know little about Freemasonry and it's metamorphasis and also you seem to know very little about Jesuitism and what it did to Freemasonry long ago.

You do make me smile!

and me disregarding everything you have said on this thread... the most truthful statement you've said!

The other thread as well... Just because some people find your knowledge of Masonry to be well... incompetent... does not make it a conspiracy, but rather..... that you may need to read a few more books.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
He was Skull and Bones though, so have fun making a conspiracy out of that.

It's just another Zionist Black Lodge.

And if you don't see any actual conspiracy with the S&B, well then I don't know what to tell you.


Sweftl337 knows much more about the politics of the Jesuits and Masonic Lodges, "regular" and "irregular", than I do; so I don't have much to say on that. I'll just observe for now.

I do know enough to say that after seeing the current state of the average contemporary Masonic Lodge, that Master Rakoczi/St. Germain/Roger Bacon/Francis Bacon, Elias Ashmole, Robert Fludd, Michael Maier, and Cagliostro would all be rolling in their graves(as sweftl337 said about the founding fathers), if we could not say that they have attained the Elixir of Long Life.

So I'd imagine that these Masters, if they are indeed still living with their same Christified physical bodies, are doing whatever they can-without imposing on the Free Will of others-to keep the Lodges as pure as possible, albeit to not much avail considering how currently overwhelming are the Klipothic vibrations of this Kali Yuga...




[edit on 1-3-2007 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by thesaint
For some years i have been very interested in the stories of the Templar Knights and have read up on quite a lot about them.

Recently i was invited to join the Masons which for some reason opened up my interst in the Templar Knights again??? I noticed that both mention each other when reading up on their history and i also noticed there would seem to be some connection within Rosslyn with regards to the carvings and symbols.

Is there a connection between these two groups. I know the Masons obviously still exsist but do the Knights still exsist??? There are many groups claiming to be the Templar Knights but funnily enough they all claim to denounce each other as the fake.

What is the connection between the 2 and if they still exsist who are the true Templar Knights.

I have not joined a lodge as of yet as i feel i need to finish my quest on studying the Templar Knights first.

Any info would be greatly appreciated

saint

Though there exists a large number who deny that there is a Templar/Mason connection, I have read too many commonalities to agree. For example, the first Templar leader, Godfroi de Bouillon, fought alongside a Henri de Saint Clair of Scotland the last time he stormed Jerusalem. Centuries later, after the arrests of 1307, a Scottish Templar link names the Sinclair family as central figures.
The Templars and Masons share many symbols, terms, and historic time, place and family connections. The organization of DeMolay is a Masonic fraternity of sons of Masons; Jacques DeMolay was the last Templar leader. The various symbols originating from the Middle East which the masons utilize, such as the scimitar and fez, would have been known by the many Templars who spent time in the holy land. These cryptic, exotic foreign symbols are unrelated to the trade of stonemasonry. The skull and crossbones symbol is common to both. The Templar flag, the Beauseant has the same black and white checkerboard pattern as Lodge floors. Both groups hold King Solomon and his temple in high regard, and are tied to him by name, text, and ritual. The Masons called the guard at the entrance to their meetings the Tyler, same as the Templars. Both were commonly accused by outsiders as likely to be doing nefarious activities. Both were considered very mysterious organizations possibly involved in magic and the occult. Both groups also used strict secrecy, stealth, secret codes, and advanced cryptography to ensure their groups security. The Sinclairs of Scotland completed their enigmatic Rosslyn chapel (said to be modeled after Solomon’s Temple, of course) 50 years before Colombus, which has carved inside it depictions of American corn and aloe vera plants. The family name also has a Templar association and the French St. Claire’s Templar history dates back to the earliest days of the order. The oldest known Masonic gravesites are medieval ones in Scotland, and they are not stonemasons’ graves. They are the graves of knights. And the gravestones have the skull and bones carved into them, a symbol that can be directly related to the Templars. And there is also the anomalous name of the Scottish Freemasons, the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite. Officially, this group was founded long after the English Lodges, in South Carolina, making the name an odd choice. Why call themselves ancient if they are a younger lodge? There is quite a lot of evidence of Scottish masonry which predates the officially accepted 18th century founding in England. Scottish royal King James the first was said to have been a mason.
Robert Bruce and 5 000 Scots routed 20 000 better equipped English soldiers at Bannockburn shortly after the Templar naval fleet had quietly departed from La Rochelle, France, under the command of Roger Bellechance(sic), or Jolly Roger, and disappeared from history. At that time Scotland was one of few countries fleeing Templars could have found refuge from their persecutors. The Scottish forces used new and very effective military tactics which were said to be hitherto unknown to the English forces, to beat them. These winning strategies were only known by returning crusader knights who had learned them when they fought in the Holy Land. If the Templars had not advised and assisted the Scottish forces, the complete thrashing of the better equipped, vastly larger, better trained, and more organized English force at Bannockburn was a most improbable victory.
The numerous tales of the knights and the holy grail, such as Arthur and the knights of the round table contain parallels with the Templars, and some feel the grail is a holy bloodline, that is being kept secret and yet still preserved by symbolizing it. The round Templar buildings are one such parallel to Arthur’s knights.
There were already longstanding family ties between French Templars and Scottish nobility, most notably, the St. Claire/Sinclair one. The Sinclairs of Scotland were known Templars, such as William de St. Clair. The two nations’ royal families were tied together through royal marriages. The French monarch’s personal guards were, for a long time, Scottish, and are the source of the term, Scotch Guard. The Templar naval flag was a black flag with a skull and cross bones on it, the flag later called the Jolly Roger in pirate tales. Historically, the Freemasons Lodge membership lists have always contained the names of numerous prominent and influential figures such as judges, lawyers, politicians, nobility, and top military personnel. Where are the stone masons? To this day the list of prominent contemporary figures who are masons is extensive. The lists also include an impressive number of US presidents. Certainly there were skilled stonemasons who were members. The Gothic cathedrals’ builders applied the new scientific principles gathered in the Crusades from the Middle East, and the application of their new expertise quickly covered Europe in Gothic Cathedrals displaying expert workmanship of unprecedented quality and design.
And there are Zeno’s letters’ detailed accounts of Henry Sinclair’s trips to Nova Scotia in the 1390's, so compelling in their descriptions of Nova Scotia that they are now accepted as being a historic reality. A portrait of Henry shows him clad in a Templar tunic, white with a red cross, another Templar/Mason link. Sinclair’s American voyages were to the very stretch of coastline where Oak Island sits, an island containing one of the most cunningly engineered pits ever recorded. It was so ingenious that its treasure was never recovered, despite the many millions of dollars spent trying to do so. There is no record of who designed and created this wonder. The task of physically carrying out the construction of the money pit on Oak Island would have required a lot of skilled manpower. One estimate was 100 000 man hours was needed. This is where the Templar fleet, sailed by the descendents of the refugee Templars, comes in. They are possibly the only men of that time who were capable of such a feat of engineering. There is a claim that someone had found a copper coin there dated 1317, which was later changed and said to have been dated1713 instead. Some theories say it was dug by pirates to protect their treasure. If so, the pirate flag would still show a Templar/Mason connection. On a plateau above the bay containing this pit are the remains of a castle for which there is no official explanation, or for that matter, recognition of its existence. The famous Newport tower in Rhode Island is another interesting mystery, with no official account of its origins. Both structures contain elements consistent with 14th century Scandinavian stonework. And it is round, like Templar buildings were, making it another possible link. And near to the Scottish Sinclair lands are the Orkney Islands, where the residents call themselves Orkadians… a term which, interestingly, is very close to Arcadia as in et in arcadia ego. L’Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland is proof that sailors from that area had been visiting and even living in that part of the new world for centuries before Sinclair’s trips. Thus the directions to the new world would have been well known to many mariners within the Sinclair lands, as he was also a Jarl of Norway. There are many other tantalizing finds in America which can be best explained as being remnants from a pre-Columbian European visit to the Atlantic shores of America.
Then in conclusion, I see many names on the A list of America's founders. The first president, George Washington, Ben Franklin, the first Postmaster General/Spymaster General, were freemasons. Many signatories to the Declaration of Independence are said to be masons. This evidence shows that the fraternity was not operating like a group of stonemasons. It is more representative of a group of wealthy, well educated, well organized nobility.
I don't see stonemasons......but evidence more plausibly related to figures descended from ancient nobility and their protectors. A similar discrepancy exists regarding the founding and early years of the Templars. It is not logical for the church to have assigned around a dozen men to protect the multitudes of pilgrims traveling the long journey to the holy land. They were given the Temple mount as their headquarters and the Templar articles found there are strong evidence of their digging beneath the mount. Many possible finds have been suggested, such as the Ark of the Covenant and heretical documents about some great ancient secret. Quickly following this, all across Europe, the amazing Gothic cathedrals were built in a very short time. These edifices had little precedent in Europe, and were likely due to the knowledge gained in the Middle East.
And I didn't even get into Templar ties to the area around Rennes Les Chateaux and the interesting activities of Berenger Sauniere once he became the parish priest at Rennes Les Chateaux? His prominent new friends and visitors, unusually large and seemingly instant wealth, mysterious religious iconography, local rumours about his suspicious activities, and his unexpected, sudden death are all subjects which are intriguing, and very unusual for a mere priest of modest means from a small and unremarkable parish. The discovery of buried Templar treasure is one proposed source for the priest’s instant wealth. The Templars are said to have worked nearby silver mines.

Reagan was not the last president to be a confirmed member of the masonic lodge. Both Bushes and Clinton are confirmed members check the info below.

www.heart7.net...

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Reagan was not Catholic, he was Mason, but whats wrong with that?

Reagan was never a Freemason. The last US President who was a Mason was Brother Gerald Ford, who held membership in a Lodge in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Brother Ford was also a Knight Templar in the York Rite, a 33° member of the Scottish Rite, and a Shriner. He was also an Elk and Knight of Pythias.

Originally posted by sweftl337


Lucio been offically expelled but you seem to know very little about what really goes on from behind the scenes. Here's what happened: a while back our brothers decided it was time to make anew a fresher and more acceptable appearence for Freemasonry. So basically, it was decided then to ensure that more traditional methods were used. One of these methods was to provide the appearance that the corruption is no longer so widespread and this also meant creating a wonderful show for everyone (particularly to convince other Masons) by "offically" removing people like Lucio Gelli. But I must inform you Brother that you are no different than many other 33'rds who have bought into this rouse. Nothing has changed.

I see that your knowledge of history comes mostly from the Cartoon Network.

P2 is not the only lodge that is irregular and it still has members who are also part of regular lodges. This part you seem to just be overlooking.

I'm "overlooking" it because it's make believe. P2 members must swear an oath renouncing Freemasonry, and the Grand Orient of Italy revoked its charter and expelled its roster of members over 30 years ago.

Originally posted by geemony
Reagan was not the last president to be a confirmed member of the masonic lodge. Both Bushes and Clinton are confirmed members check the info below.

None of the above have ever been Masons. There have been 15 US Presidents of the USA who have been Masons, the last being Gerald Ford. The other 20th century Masonic Presidents were Harry S. Truman, Warren G. Harding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Teddy Roosevelt. Lyndon Baines Johnson received the First Degree of Masonry as an Entered Apprentice, but never became a Master Mason.

Bill Clinton's father had been a Mason, and Clinton joined the DeMolay Society, a Masonic youth organization, while in his teens. However, he never became a Mason afterward.

The Bushes have no connection to Freemasonry at all. Ronald Reagan, while president, received community service awards from the Scottish Rite and Shriners, but was never a member of any of them.

Check the facts, most every government building in D.C. has a base cornerstone, which was set by the Masonic temple. This country's history is deeply rooted with a Masonic influence. Because of freemasonry’s secretive nature, you get every conspiracy theory known to man coming in and saying stuff that simply is not true. It is the same as lining up a hundred people and telling the first person something. By the time it gets to the 100th person, the story is changed and the facts clouded over with conjecture and here say. My family has been masons forever as far as I can trace my roots. I know what freemasonry is today and its nothing like what is being portrayed in this thread. Information you read on the web and in TV shows simply don’t know about freemasonry because freemasonry does not advertise and they hate it that they cant know the truth so you get many disgruntled people claiming things that just aren’t true and cant be proven anyway. Believe facts not conjecture and he said she said explanations for what most know nothing about until you are sitting in a temple as a member of the order of the knights of the Scottish rites of freemasonry.

I find it very entertaining reading some of these explanations for what Freemasonry is. Until you are a member, you will never know exactly what the deal is. Sorry but that is reserved for those who want knowledge and want to help their fellow brother. "Brother can you spare a dime" look it up and do the research before you blast what you no know nothing about.

Sorry but I get real animated when I see so many misinformed people.

Originally posted by thesaint
I have not joined a lodge as of yet as i feel i need to finish my quest on studying the Templar Knights first.

Any info would be greatly appreciated

Hi Saint

I'd be pleased to answer any questions you have about UK freemasonry, but not on this thread as:

1. It's not a conspiracy topic and this is a conspiracy forum
2. There are a number of inaccuracies about freemasonry on this thread, many posted with the best of intentions, and I fear our conversation would get swamped.
3. There is one poster on this thread who is an out-and-out fantasist. I've just been bashing my head against a brick wall with another delusional poster and I don't think I could cope with another right now

u2u me if you have any questions you think I can help with.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Reagan was not Catholic, he was Mason, but whats wrong with that?

Reagan was never a Freemason. The last US President who was a Mason was Brother Gerald Ford, who held membership in a Lodge in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Brother Ford was also a Knight Templar in the York Rite, a 33° member of the Scottish Rite, and a Shriner. He was also an Elk and Knight of Pythias.

I meant Ford..... I have no idea why I said Raegan... I just thought last president who died, and got the two mixed up! .. how embarassing..

Originally posted by Masonic LightNone of the above have ever been Masons. There have been 15 US Presidents of the USA who have been Masons, the last being Gerald Ford. The other 20th century Masonic Presidents were Harry S. Truman, Warren G. Harding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Teddy Roosevelt. Lyndon Baines Johnson received the First Degree of Masonry as an Entered Apprentice, but never became a Master Mason.

Bill Clinton's father had been a Mason, and Clinton joined the DeMolay Society, a Masonic youth organization, while in his teens. However, he never became a Mason afterward.

The Bushes have no connection to Freemasonry at all. Ronald Reagan, while president, received community service awards from the Scottish Rite and Shriners, but was never a member of any of them.

Just curious, as to how you can state this with such certainty. I was once told by an ex Order of The Eastern Star, who converted to atheism and quit, that there had been but one non-mason who was elected president of the USA, JFK. I am not saying you are wrong, just wondering if it is at all likely some masons do not wish to divulge their membership? After all, it was supposed to be a secret society. My dad's family have been masons going way back, many becoming grand masters, though my atheistic dad declined the offer to join and did not take the advice that he should like about his lack of belief in God so he could be approved. I doubt I will ever join, but I have read much on the topic, and dislike the amount of baseless and defamatory writing I see dissing them. The Shriners do good work. If my forebears were evil, then I at least want to see some solid proof. The worst totally unsubstantiated conjecture I have seen bloom into a gigantic gossip topic is the supposed Illuminati. Search this site to see my point, I read every post regarding proof they are real today. None was found, though many asked to see it over many years here. Symbols like the eye pyramid on the dollar aren't enough to prove anything. But I do think the Templars are the group from which the first masonic groups are descended. The commonalities and similarities outlined in my last post may not all be correct, but even if a couple are not quite accurate, there is still plenty of links unlikely to all be by chance. I don't just accept the conclusions made by those who have theorized that the masons are surely evil by evidence of their actions. It is not impossible that some actions may appear evil unless the full story is known, and I never seem to be convinced that any of these mason-bashers are any thing other than scared of the unknown and scared of power, which is natural and common. I am not afraid of either myself.

The templar knights are a bunch of satanic criminal thugs, who went around raping and piliging during the crusades. They where without mercy. They are said to be the ones behind the rape Saladin's niece.

They are connected to the freemasons and the illuminati. Join them if you have no soul.