The Scottish Call for Independence!

As an Englishman living in Scotland I have recently noticed most Scots calling for the break of the United Kingdom and an independent Scotland.

My personal belief is that Scotland would not benefit in the slightest if the UK seperated, and if it was to happen in the near future Scotlands Economy would decline rapidly.

Many have said to me..."England only want the UK due to Aberdeen's oil!"
It may be true that Aberdeen is currently the oil capital of Europe, But as we all know...Oil doesnt last forever...What happens then?

I dont think the Split of the Uk is bad just because im English, I have a list of reasons that I think prove a split would be a very bad idea, both short-term and long-term.


What are your views?

Should the UK split?


Mic

The call for the split is an ill thought out idea: an idea fuelled by wannabe Bravehearts and feasted upon by short sighted nationalist (and dare I say it, racist) Scots.

Which is just idiotic in my view, seeing as we work so well together, and that we are very much interbred now.

But you know how it is Mick. ALL ENGLISH ARE EVIL.

Just ask Hollywood. We make Darth Vader look like Mother Theresa

I fail to see how fragmentation benefits anyone. European Nations stand to gain far more by solidifying their union than by further dissemination.

I'm not sure if anyone caught Question Time last night (if not, you can catch it here) but it was in Edinburgh and they discussed this very issue (amongst other things).

The Lib Dem representative, Nicol Stephen (Deputy First Minister of Scotland) said that - should the Lib Dems form a coalition with the SNP - they wouldn't support a referendum on independence. Alex Salmon came out with his usual bile about how unfair everything is and how great it'd be for Scotland to be independent. Well, it wouldn't.

It's also interesting to note from the Question Time programme that, according to Nicol Stephen, most SNP voters are older males. Young people tend to support the union more - in this case, I think parties really need to listen to the young people on the issue of Scottish independence because it's them who will have to take the process through and live in an independent Scotland... especially when the oil reserves stop flowing.

There was an interesting article in the Guardian a few weeks ago about the economic argument for Scottish independence. Luckily the article is online and you can peruse it at your pleasure here.

A quick summary - if Scotland became independent it would either have to push taxes up a lot, bring down public spending significantly (which, considering the SNP are pretty left wing, is unlikely) or both. It also argues that comparing and independent Scotland to the Irish Republic is not a simple comparison to make, as their situations are very different.

Besides, as both MickeyDee and the Guardian article points out, basing the Scottish economy on oil is not going to work - oil prices fluctuate and North Sea oil is running out. So where does your money for public services come from when the oil has gone?

As you can probably tell, I think both Scotland and England gain far more from sticking together (along with Wales and Northern Ireland) than they ever would on their own. I'm perplexed as to why the SNP think otherwise.

[edit on 23/2/07 by Ste2652]

Bad Idea, we should keep the UK. The SNP are full of so much BS it's unbelievable, i personally cant stand Alex Salmond. I don't wanna end up like Ireland.

I live in Scotland and personally detest the idea of a spilt. Alex Salmond turns my stomach every time he is on TV. If there was an annual prize for smugness, then it would be called 'The Alex Salmond Annual Smug Git Prize for Being Smug'.

I digress...

I have pondered posting a topic very similar to this on a previous occasion, but decided against it due to a side issue on the matter which is rather controversial. It is that of religious sectarianism in Scotland.

You see, the great working class in Scotland is divided by differences in the Christian faith. One half Protestant, and the other half Catholic. I believe some of this is attributed to immigration from Ireland in times yore. Now, you have to remember that there is a great deal of shallow people out there and it doesn't get any shallower than this...

The following is a generalisation, but is unfortunatley representative of a great many men and women in Scotland and it is REALLY difficult to describe effectively.

Many of the Catholic half are historic immigrants from Ireland, and continue to associate themselves with Ireland through representation of the Irish flag on football tops and at football matches (60,000 go to Celtic Park every week). When on holiday in Spain, have a look around at the people wearing Irish tops. Half of them will be Scottish. There is a general distaste of the union from this half.

The protestant half are historic Scots, and seem to favour the union and Britishness to a much higher Degree. Visit Ibrox, the home of football team Glasgow Rangers, and there are Union Flags everywhere. Unfortunately, a portion of this half has become embroiled in the politics of Northern Ireland with some choosing to become Orangemen and the like. Legislation from the devolved government recently banned sectarian singing at football matches.

I believe SminkeyPinkey resides in Northern Ireland, so he could probably give way more depth to the situation than I could.

This generalistaion does not apply to everybody in the country, but there is a huge population out there who base their political opinion on the jungle fever of their clan. I live and work in the area where it is at its worst, and it is very real. People are regularly stabbed, slashed, beat upon and even murdered for no reason other than their religion. And most of them won't even go to church!!!

Now, it sounds petty and it is. I have political conversations with many workmates, and I have to say that Catholics in general have a real distaste of Britishness. To my knowledge, this is not apparent in England or Wales.

There. I said it. My own country is the most politically shallow developed nation in the world. Until this retarded nonsense is eradicated, there will always be a threat to the union.

its not popular anymore since the EU said that Scotland would not get automatic membership and would to have to apply to all international organisation, which takes years.

Plus North Sea oil is in British waters, not Scottish. The water will still stay British even if Scotland leave meaning you would not get the oil money. That is another thing Salmond will not tell you.

[edit on 23-2-2007 by infinite]

Well, it's very heartening to see such widespread support for the continuation of the United Kingdom. There's something buried deep down in some English and Scottish people that makes them suspend reason and rational thought for a moment and believe this nonsense that both nations would be better off apart.

I really hope that the SNP receive a thrashing in the May elections - it would show them that, even three hundred years on, the United Kingdom isn't going anywhere yet.

Originally posted by Ste2652
I really hope that the SNP receive a thrashing in the May elections - it would show them that, even three hundred years on, the United Kingdom isn't going anywhere yet.

Rule Britannia, babeh

What i would like to see is Scottish MP's not being able to vote on english matter's. We cannot vote on Scottish matter's but they can on ours (incidentaly boosting Labour's majority... Hmmm....). And perhaps not have so many Scot's in the cabinet. They are abit over represented if you ask me. Apart from that, keep the Union.

If Scotland did split, what they don't realise is the huge amounts that flow north from England in tax revenue. Without this English subsidy, the Scottish Health service and Education (which they proudly tout as their own wonderful achievement but is actually paid for by England) would collapse.

And you can keep your haggis-picking flippers off the oil too.....

Originally posted by stumason
What i would like to see is Scottish MP's not being able to vote on english matter's. We cannot vote on Scottish matter's but they can on ours (incidentaly boosting Labour's majority... Hmmm....). And perhaps not have so many Scot's in the cabinet. They are abit over represented if you ask me. Apart from that, keep the Union.

The point about Scottish MPs is a pretty moot one in my opinion since:

a) People tend to vote along party lines, so whether you're from Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland doesn't really matter.

b) England returns 529 MPs to Parliament, whereas Scotland returns only 59, meaning Scottish MPs are outnumbered by over 9-1 by English MPs. The role of Scottish MPs has been greatly exaggerated (especially by the Tories, who stand to slash Labour's majority on English issues by roughly 40ish seats and the Lib Dems by 10 or so) and English MPs have by far the majority say in English matters (and indeed all other matters of UK policy). Even if Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs combined forces to vote on an English issue they would only have 117 (which is virtually impossible considering, as I previously mentioned, they follow party lines as opposed to which Home Nation they come from) seats compared to England's 529.

As for the Scots in Cabinet... who becomes a Cabinet official is the Prime Minister's prerogative (via the Monarch's powers), so it's really up to him/her. It's not practical for a government to make the Cabinet representative because, for instance, the Conservatives only have one seat in Scotland. If they formed the next government, Cameron simply couldn't create a representative Cabinet because he had only one Scottish MP. Not to mention that none of the major parties have any MPs from Northern Ireland.

Honestly, I'm not too bothered which part of the UK a Cabinet minister or any government official comes from as long as they can do their job.

[edit on 23/2/07 by Ste2652]

It doesn't matter how few there are compared to the English MP's, it's the Principle.

They banged on for years about wanting their Parliament, now they have it. We're not even asking for our own parliament, but just that the bloody jocks not vote on solely English issues. We can't vote on Scottish one's, so why not vice versa?

Is that too much to ask?

As for the cabinet question, the PM can choose people from other parties if he want's. In fact, junior minister's (not Secretary of State's) don't even have to be an MP...

The problem is, stumason. The Parliament in London is for the United Kingdom not England. We need our own one for English only MPS, one for Welsh and the Scotish one. With them only needing to meet on matters that involve the whole United Kingdom.

Originally posted by stumason
It doesn't matter how few there are compared to the English MP's, it's the Principle.

They banged on for years about wanting their Parliament, now they have it. We're not even asking for our own parliament, but just that the bloody jocks not vote on solely English issues. We can't vote on Scottish one's, so why not vice versa?

Is that too much to ask?

Well, I'm not a big fan of devolution anyway precisely because of issues such as this - I'd prefer it if Westminster was the sole Parliament since otherwise you get this argument that either the union has to be significantly weakened by creating an English Parliament or Scottish MPs should have powers taken from them (which, in my opinion, is not right since it's a backdoor way for one party to gain an advantage over a number of others). Neither are attractive options.

With regards to junior ministers... they do have to be in Parliament, but they don't have to be in the House of Commons (though I think that's what you meant anyway... right?) - each department usually has at least one minister (usually a junior one) from the House of Lords so that that person can represent that department in the Lords. Some departments can have Secretaries of State from the House of Lords too (e.g. the Department of Constitutional Affairs, which has Lord Falconer as its Secretary of State).

[edit on 23/2/07 by Ste2652]

Originally posted by Odium
The problem is, stumason. The Parliament in London is for the United Kingdom not England. We need our own one for English only MPS, one for Welsh and the Scotish one. With them only needing to meet on matters that involve the whole United Kingdom.

You don't need that at all. You could dispense with their piddly assemblies (save the wages of Scotts MSP's and MP's) and have it all back in London. If something concern's only one nation, then they vote on it.

Originally posted by stumason
You don't need that at all. You could dispense with their piddly assemblies (save the wages of Scotts MSP's and MP's) and have it all back in London. If something concern's only one nation, then they vote on it.

How fantastic.

So what we do is, we have an MP who represents an area and doesn't live there for what 5 years? Sorry but that's not my kind of democracy. I am already sick and tired of MPs getting the jobs and moving to London. A Scotish MP can not spend 12hrs a day, every day on a trip to and from London (if not longer). When they move they loose contact with the area and the areas problems.

Remember an MP represents his area not his party. How can you honestly represent somewhere you've not lived for years? How do you know the problems your area faces? throwing them all down London won't help this and it won't help that a lot of the public no longer vote because of instances like this.

bloody jocks

And you can keep your haggis-picking flippers off the oil too

Ok, StuMason. It's abuse like that which fuels anti-English sentiment in Scotland. This sort of ignorant nonsense is fairly widespread. Were I to come on here and call you an ignorant, brash, loud, opinionated 'Little Inger-Lander' who believes the Union flag is English and that Ingerland is the centre of the world then you wouldn't be happy. Most Scots think that English cities are an absolute pit. We wouldn't want to live in these multi-cultural hell-holes. The majority of people also think that English people are incredibly ignorant of the Scottish culture. I mean 'haggis picking'?.

Don't tell me... You have a shaved head, a St George tatoo, and fly a flag on your car as well.

Also, if I came on here and said things such as 'bloody paki's' or 'bloody gooks' then I would be banned from the board.

Keep that crap in England where it belongs. People like you don't deserve to be part of the Union.

I was only messing and long time board member and Scot, Devilwasp, will back me up on this. Sorry if I offended anyone though. Seriously, half my family are Scottish. It's banter and we do it all the time, at the end of the day though, we're all friends

Originally posted by boyg2004
Don't tell me... You have a shaved head, a St George tatoo, and fly a flag on your car as well.

Why is it funny when you say that? Is it because your messing around? exactly. I take no offence from it in the slightest. I actually chuckled when I read it

Originally posted by boyg2004
Also, if I came on here and said things such as 'bloody paki's' or 'bloody gooks' then I would be banned from the board.

Indeed, but those are clearly racist terms, whereas any Scot I know will not mind being called Jock. Most have thick enough skin to dish out a stereotype themselves and we can all have a good chuckle. The ability to laugh at oneself is a good one to have..

Originally posted by Odium
How fantastic.

So what we do is, we have an MP who represents an area and doesn't live there for what 5 years? Sorry but that's not my kind of democracy. I am already sick and tired of MPs getting the jobs and moving to London. A Scotish MP can not spend 12hrs a day, every day on a trip to and from London (if not longer). When they move they loose contact with the area and the areas problems.

Remember an MP represents his area not his party. How can you honestly represent somewhere you've not lived for years? How do you know the problems your area faces? throwing them all down London won't help this and it won't help that a lot of the public no longer vote because of instances like this.

Aha, my point exactly. Why do Scotts MP's get to vote on English matter's if the above is not acceptable to Scot's? Hypocrasy..