Proof that our 2007 is Mayan 2012 !!

I have walked the edge of the Abyss.
I have governed the unwilling.
I have witnessed countless empires break before me.
I have seen the most courageous soldiers fall away in fear.
[I was there with the Angel at the tomb]

I have seen your future.
And I have learned.

There will be no more Sadness. No more Anger. No more Envy.

I HAVE WON.

Oh, and your poet Eliot had it all wrong:
THIS is the way the world ends.
Not with a bang but a whimper.

From:
marathon.bungie.org...

Sorry for being Waaaaaaay of topic, but i thought a little humour will not harm...

This is the way the world ends...

Dragonlike


[edit on 20-2-2007 by Dragonlike]

some say that not only did they know about the new age coming but also knew the exact date of the beginning of the world. they look at huge cycles of movements of stars. just as the planets have a rotation around the sun, the sun is in a binary orbit around another sun. this rotation effects the rise and fall of civilizations just as the earth rotating around the sun effects the seasons. every 24 thousand years the orbit is complete. it will have made a complete cycle in 2012. this video describes the great year really well.

video.google.com...

On the other hand, who is the dude that states history keeps repeating itself because half of it's made up. If you follow his logic we still have hundreds of years untill 2012

Originally posted by DCP
On the other hand, who is the dude that states history keeps repeating itself

Actually, human history repeats itself and the first who said that was Thucydides on his documents of Peloponnesian wars
-en.wikipedia.org... esian_War
-en.wikipedia.org...

He said: It's humans nature to repeat the same mistakes. For that reason i am writing this book to last for ever so human will be able to learn from them and never repeat them.

Thucydides was the first unbiased (recorded) historian and father of Historic documentation. Unlike herodotus he made his work, although remain unfinished by him, not to satisfy the taste of speech as Herodotus used to. That's why his ancient greek language was even difficult for ancient Athenaens to read and always critisised him for that...
Remember that Athenaens were philosophers and loved the ''games of speech'', so the logic (mostly logic of our time) of Thucydides was hard for them...

What's my point here?
Well if History is sencored then human nature will subsequently fall into repetition!!!

Originally posted by Tibris
Where does the 5 come from exactly? in the "2012-5=2007..." part. Seems to me the person that did that math just wanted a number that connected 2012 and 2007 together somehow and so he pulled 5 out of thin air. or maybe i'm missing something?

Whether this has something to do or not with the Mayan Calendar, I haven't the slightest idea.
Some people have said that the present-day calendar may be off about 5 years. Some others say that it's off by about 4 years or even 6 years.
Probably it came from the speculation that the Gregorian calendar was based on the assumption that the first year of the calendar, A.D. (which is Anno Domini) is when Christ was born.
But many biblical scholars seem to point that Christ may have been born anywhere from 4 B.C. to 6 B.C.
If Christ was born in 4 B.C., then we are in 2011 now. If Christ was born in 6 B.C., then, we are in 2013.
If Christ was born in 5 B.C., then, coincidentally, we are now in 2012.
This may have nothing to do with the Mayan Calendar.
It could simply be a coincidence.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the mayan 2012 have absolutely no meaning for us whatsoever

Exactly.


the world won't end
there will be no great upheaval
and we will be completely unaffected

i stand by this position because there is simply no way of proving that the end of a mayan calendar means anything to us at all

Not only that, but they completely failed to predict important things to their own area and civilization... like the complete destruction of their culture by the Spanish.

WHERE THE DATE COMES FROM... okay, folks, time for a bit of history and culture.

We all (I hope) know that a year is 365.24yaddayaddayadda days long. Ancient civilizations never worked it out to EXACTLY that length (Egypt had some problems until they adopted the roman calendar), but many came close. The Chinese calndar had to be reformed around 75 times in 2,000 years:
en.wikipedia.org...

The European calendar was based on the Roman calendar which was already out of whack by the time of Julius Caesar. By the time of Pope Gregory, the calendar was so far off that the date of the spring equinox fell near the beginning of March, and Christmas was creeping towards what would really be November.

10 days (not 5 years) were knocked off the calendar and leap years and leap centuries, etc, were added so that our calendar is fairly accurate (we also have to adjust leap seconds.)

The "off by 5 years" isn't likely. The Aztecs recorded what day the encountered the Spanish (and the Spanish recorded their contacts with the Aztecs, so we have both systems. And it's a simple matter to count the days, calendar reform or no calendar reform.

The Mayas had been conquered by the Aztecs and weren't a viable civilization by then although the Aztecs used their calendar.

Soooo... lots of fuss and bother, and someone is trying to make a name for themselves. But in the end, it's all smoke and mirrors. December 12, 2012 is going to be as big a "kerploop" as Y2K was.

Coolest SLAYER emblem I have ever seen!! My favorite group. With your point, as with others, about the sun being at the galactic center, I tried to tell someone else that and they said it happened in 1997, or close to it. I just laughed and made no response. It was pointless. I have only been a member for about a week and it's really cool to think that my first post when I created this topic, has resulted in 2 pages worth of discussion. Before I go, check out a group called Agathodaimon...very good !

Originally posted by Marduk
prove it
with credible links
I'd be willing to bet money that you can't

Actually this link shows a pretty good explanation of the subject to my knowledge of it:

A brief survey of Izapan iconography and astronomy in the Group F ballcourt

The earth is not supposed to literally enter this dark rift and be effected by a dust cloud, but rather it’s the way that the rift appears from the perspective of the Mayans location on the earth to the center of the rift, as is shown in this diagram:



This has been shown to be their beliefs in many of their hieroglyphics left behind, and their temples are laid out in such a way that they will cast certain shadows at specific times, which relate to celestial events. This being the most famous, the snake shadow:


Now where is my money?

Originally posted by Don Wahn
I agree with Marduk.

Please provide more credible links. If it is correct, you shouldnt have any trouble finding the Pope who said it.

Where did I mention anything about a pope?
Maybe you should re-read the thread, I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

Originally posted by Marduk
I'm hoping at this point you realise that the mayans knew very little about the Universe
they didn't know anything about the Galaxy
and they only knew the existence of five planets

I think that you know less about the Mayans then you think they knew about Astronomy:

Mayan Astronomy
The Maya were quite accomplished astronomers. Their primary interest, in contrast to "western" astronomers, were Zenial Passages when the Sun crossed over the Maya latitudes. On an annual basis the sun travels to its summer solstice point, or the latitude of 23-1/3 degrees north.

T0by & Arkangel4time
Thanks for the supporting links...


[edit on 2/20/2007 by defcon5]

apparently I know a lot more about Maya astronomy than either you or the author of your link
John Major Jenkins is a pseudohistorian
so your link isn't credible
so you in fact owe me money
want to try again
this time with a credible link by an anthropologist or historian who has actually studied the maya and preferably one who doesnt give speeches to people on the interstellar brotherhood

Originally posted by Marduk
apparently I know a lot more about Maya astronomy than either you or the author of your link
John Major Jenkins is a pseudohistorian
so your link isn't credible
so you in fact owe me money

Well so far myself and others have provided you links, and all I have seen from you in return is a bunch of boasts with no supporting evidence to the contrary besides your opinion. You know what they say about opinions, right?

While you search for your first supporting link check out these:

Maya civilization
Astronomy
Uniquely, there is some evidence to suggest the Maya appear to be the only pre-telescopic civilization to evidence knowledge of the Orion Nebula as being fuzzy, i.e. not a stellar pin-point. The information which supports this theory comes from a folk tale that deals with the Orion constellation's part of the sky. Their traditional hearths include in their middle a smudge of glowing fire that corresponds with the Orion Nebula. This is a significant clue to support the idea that the Maya detected a diffuse area of the sky contrary to the pin points of stars before the telescope was invented.[10] Many preclassic sites are oriented with rhe Pleiades and Eta draconnis, as seen in La Blanca, Ujuxte, Monte Alto, and Takalik Abaj.
The Maya were very interested in Zenial passages, the time when the sun passes directly overhead. The latitude of most of their cities being below the Tropic of Cancer, these zenial passages would occur twice a year equidistant from the solstice. To represent this position of the sun overhead, the Maya had a god named Diving God.[citation needed]
The Dresden Codex contains the highest concentration of astronomical phenomena observations and calculations of any of the surviving texts (it appears that the data in this codex is primarily or exclusively of an astronomical nature). Examination and analysis of this codex reveals that Venus was the most important astronomical object to the Maya, even more important to them than the sun.
Religion
Much of the Maya religious tradition is still not understood by scholars, but it is known that the Maya, like most pre-modern societies, believed that the cosmos has three major planes, the underworld, the sky, and the earth. The Maya Underworld is reached through caves and ball courts. It was thought to be dominated by the aged Maya gods of death and putrefaction. The Sun and Itzamna, both aged gods, dominated the Maya idea of the sky. The night sky was considered a window showing all supernatural doings. The Maya configured constellations of gods and places, saw the unfolding of narratives in their seasonal movements, and believed that the intersection of all possible worlds was in the night sky.

Maya mythology
In common with other Mesoamerican civilizations, each of the cardinal (or world-) directions were ascribed certain properties and associations. These attributes held a particular significance, and they provided one of the major frameworks which interlinked much of Maya religion and cosmology. The Maya world-view recognized the four primary compass directions, and each of these was consistently associated with a particular color— east with red, north with white, west with black and south with yellow. These associations and their respective glyphs are attested from at least the Early Classic period, and also figure markedly in the Postclassic Maya codices.[1]
A fifth 'direction', the "center", also formed a part of this scheme. Associated with a blue-green color, this was most frequently represented by a great ceiba tree, conceptualized as the "world tree" or "tree of life". In Maya cosmology this formed a kind of axis mundi which connected the Earth's center with the layers of both the underworld and the heavens. It is believed that living ceiba trees were maintained at the center of many pre-Columbian Maya settlements in symbolic representation of this connection, and possibly one was placed at each of the four cardinal directions as well.[2]

Mesoamerican world tree
"World trees" are a prevalent motif occurring in the mythical cosmologies, creation accounts and iconographies of the pre-Columbian cultures of Mesoamerica. World trees embodied the four cardinal directions, which also serve to represent the four-fold nature of a central world tree, a symbolic axis mundi which connects the planes of the Underworld and the sky with that of the terrestrial realm.[1]

The central world tree has also been interpreted as a representation of the band of the Milky Way.[5]

Don’t like any of Wiki’s quotes, how’s about a site sponsored by NASA?

Windows to the Universe

Milky Way
Mayans seem to have thought of the Milky Way as the mystic road along which souls walk into the Underworld. Crossing the Milky Way at the constellation Scorpio is the ecliptic, the apparent path of the sun, moon, and planets as they move against the background of stars.
Mayans tracked their creation stories in relation to the movement of the stars across the heavens. They believed that the point at which the Milky way appeared as a vertical band in the night sky represented the moment of creation.

How about this Dr. or is he not to your liking either?

The Milky Way as the Path to the Otherworld
Dr. Ed Barnhart
MAYA
The Maya have occupied Guatemala, Belize, and parts of Mexico, Honduras and El Salvador for almost 3000 years. For the Maya, both ancient and modern, the Milky Way plays a central role in a re-enactment of creation that is cyclically displayed in the night sky. Primarily, it is associated with the World Tree that reaches from Earth into the heavens. The great false Sun, Seven-Macaw, sat in this tree in the third creation. On the dates August 13 and February 5, dates especially associated with creation, the night sky goes through a cycle from dusk to dawn that recounts the story of the transition from the third creation into the present one. During those evenings, when the Milky Way runs along a North-South Axis it is the World Tree. A constellation identified as the great bird, Seven-Macaw, is positioned falling out of the top of the Tree in north. As it tilts towards the horizon, the Milky Way becomes the Crocodile Tree. When it reaches the east-west axis it switches into the canoe carrying the Maize God to the Place of creation (Freidel et al. 1993:93-99).
While oriented on the north-south direction, the Milky Way also forms a cross with the elliptical path of the Sun. It is called the K'an Cross and correlates to a well-known symbol in Classic Maya iconography and writing (Freidel et al. 1993:94). Crosses are especially visible at the ruins of Palenque. Palenque's Cross Group was named for its abundance of the symbols. The cross is also displayed on Palenque's most recognizable scene, the sarcophagus lid on the tomb of Pakal. Brundage (1981) published a drawing of the lid omitting Pakal and leaving only the cross (Figure 5). The book Maya Cosmos suggests that this image shows Pakal falling down the Milky Way to the same path once taken by the Maize God and his brother towards Xibalba. One enters the road in the south, at the base of the tree when it is helping to form the cross in the sky (Freidel et al. 1993:351). The Maya Milky Way is the path to the Otherworld. The cross in the sky formed by the Milky Way and the ecliptic stretches out in all four directions. The place where they meet is the center of the universe. From the creation myth, the Popol Vuh, we know that the three hearthstones were set at this center. The first act was the setting of the stones, followed by the raising of the sky and the establishment of the four corners and sides. The Milky Way and the ecliptic form the four partitions and a triangular constellation identified by Dennis Tedlock forms the three hearthstones (1985:261). The responsible deities left the story of creation in the sky for all Maya to see and remember.

I can find many more if you require.
I accept paypal, checks, and money orders…


[edit on 2/21/2007 by defcon5]

An earlier post that I enjoyed. I say this sums up what I believe the Mayan's meant. This includes Reference links within that post.

Original comment this thread by damajikninja
I will quote some of what he said and you can go to thread and read full post as I do not want to flood the post.

This is one of my particular areas of interest. ATS has a few good threads on the subject, and I suggest you go hunt them down. There is also a plethora of info out on the net that you can go Google for.

Here's the skinny:

December 21st, 2012 - Modern astronomy can tell us a lot about the black and white facts of where we will be in space at that time, where our planets will be, etc. The fun thing is that the ancient Mayans and Sumerians (and some speculate thed Egyptians) knew about this long ago, and depicted the events in their carvings.

So what do we know? Well, we know that on that date, our the bodies in our solar system will all be in alignment. The Transit of Venus will occur once again due to this (Venus passing in front of the Sun). Our Sun will also be in the peak of its solar tantrum cycle, causing some groups to speculate that the magnetic poles of our Earth and possibly other planets could be shifted or reversed altogether.

Besides all this fun stuff occuring in our Solar System, the whole of the solar system itself will be in perfect alignment with the eliptical plane of our Milky Way galaxy. It will be the first time this has occured in umpteen-xillion years.

Also, the area of space that our solar system will occupy at that time will be smack in the middle of a strange nebulous cloud that scientists have been studying and tracking for a few years now. To my knowledge, we do not have a clear understanding of what the cloud's effects could be on our Solar System and the Earth itself.

So to summarize:

1) Our sun will be at the peak of a Solar Hissy Fit.
2) Our planets will be in alignment.
3) Our entier Solar System will be aligned with the eliptical plane of the galaxy.
4) We will be in the middle of a strange nebula.

...

The fun thing is that the ancient Mayans and Sumerians (and some speculate thed Egyptians) knew about this long ago, and depicted the events in their carvings.

well thats simply not true
anyone who actually knows about Sumerian Mayan or Egyptian astronomy would tell you that they didn't know what outer space was
the sumerians believed that the world was the centre of the universe and that everything revolved around it
they then placed themselves at the centre of the earth with everything revolving around Sumer
they knew of only six planets five of which they thought were Gods
they only named a handful of constellations as well (the more noticeable ones) out of the thousands that can be seen from their viewpoint
they wouldn't know what a telescope was if you beat them to death with it and not only did they not know much about the universe they didn't care about it either
most of their studies of the sky were to aid their predictions and prophecies all of which were based on what the king should do next and nothing to do with predictions thousands of years in the future
so claiming they really had an interest in astronomy is quite innacurate
its much closer to astrology than anything else

the Egyptians knew even less than the Sumerians did
and the Mayans weren't around at the time
the sumerian empire collapsed in 2500bce about 2000 years before the mayans first existed as a seperate tribal group

Originally posted by Marduk
anyone who actually knows about Sumerian Mayan or Egyptian astronomy would tell you that they didn't know what outer space was
the Egyptians knew even less than the Sumerians did
and the Mayans weren't around at the time

Wow, more expert opinion with no supporting evidence…
Hm... When will we even see the slightest hint of an external quote supporting these remarks you seem to be throwing out at other users with nothing to back them up?

Is it OK to bet folks money for supporting links, pick on them about it, then not accept the links they provide, without practicing what you preach?

In the real world refusing to provide the same proof you require of others is called "being a hypocrite."


[edit on 2/22/2007 by defcon5]

In the real world refusing to provide the same proof you require of others is called "being a hypocrite."

actually seeing as no one asked me for any links what you just did is whats called either a "straw man argument" or sometimes a "personal attack"

and as I'm a sumerologist I can provide any links you want from reputable websites
what would you like me to disprove first ?

To the Babylonians, their chief city, Babylon, was at the center of the world. The Sumerians saw Nippur at the earth's center

www.religioustolerance.org...

There is not a single text in any extant Sumero-Mesopotamian text that says the Sumerians or Mesopotamians knew of more than five planets.

www.michaelsheiser.com...
this claim of course doesn't include the other planet which they knew about which is the one they called Kisar. that they knew of this one wasn't very impressive either

this site lists all 78 known sumerian astral objects
www.astronomy.pomona.edu...
as opposed to the 10 billion that most modern astronomers estimate are visible

the Sumerians didn't have telescopes

www.badastronomy.com...

for the purposes of definition I would point out that the Sumerians were around from approx 5000bce til 2500bce
the Akkadians shared a similar amount of knowledge about astronomy whereas the Babylonians (1900BCE - 100BCE) were far more expert.
and did have telescopes which they got from the greeks

happy now ?


[edit on 22-2-2007 by Marduk]

[edit on 22-2-2007 by Marduk]

i guess everyone who argued the world was round was a pseudo historian as well

marduk u ruin so much of your own decent critical thinking with blantant stubborness and ignorance

ever think of becoming a politician





[edit on 22-2-2007 by cpdaman]

i guess everyone who argued the world was round was a pseudo historian as well

thats a modern misconception
no one ever thought the world was flat in ancient times

marduk u ruin so much of your own decent critical thinking with blantant stubborness and ignorance

actually i ruin the pseudo thought of others, if you don't want to know the truth then don't read anything from credible sources
you'll soon be screaming into your morning coffee convinced that the world is going to end every other day of the week because some crackpot with an agenda says so
then you'll be happy ?

you must be paid well

by who ?
thats pure paranoia on your part
I'm not stubborn
I'm just correct
sorry that doesnt mirror whats been thrown up by your personal belief and imagination but clearly you arent that knowledgable on these topics so who cares what you think anyway
I don't

i stand by this position because there is simply no way of proving that the end of a mayan calendar means anything to us at all

that is fine that u stand by that position even though many else do not, proof to someone else may not be proof to you, and so on.

Not only that, but they completely failed to predict important things to their own area and civilization... like the complete destruction of their culture by the Spanish.

so your argument which may or may not be false is being held up by the fact that while others think there is proof that it means something regarding us, (not the doom and gloom crowd) that u just believe there is not proof, that is fine, but just because it is not published in the journal of science does not make it unprovable because proof only comes from within (your own beleifs)

and to abstract that they could not have any insight to astonomical orientations possible effects on the consciousness on humans at the dates these occurences occured based on a fact that they were conquerable seems like childish logic considereing your critical thinking skills.

but i guess this can be more llikely what happens when u only go by the "published facts" you can be one of the first to discredit someting or the last to accept it and you can also short cut your critical thinking skils on some topic by not considering or knowing many of the basic interpretations because you were too skeptical in the first place to gather information from more perspectives

btw i'm not so sure the mayans are correct either but the vedic and egyptian calendars predict something "special" ( happening as well)

i guess because a few people were afraid there computers were gonna crash in 2000 and that 6/6/06 was nothing that all prophecies must be false

2012 would not be an event(if in fact it is anything), it would be a PROCESS completing (over time)

so if I were to draw up a legally binding contract that on this prophecy date in 2012 all your property would be signed over to charity
how many of you would sign it
if you agree to this idea please post complete garbage below
you first cpdaman

Originally posted by Marduk

i guess everyone who argued the world was round was a pseudo historian as well

thats a modern misconception
no one ever thought the world was flat in ancient times

And western world are accusing moeslems flat world concept.

By the way what make you think it is modern misconception? What did they think? triangle or double cones?

And yours are not misconception?

Are you talking about Pope Julian? I think he was the one, not sure.
Anyway, that is the calendar of the western world. The Mayan calendar was created way before that, how could our present calendar affect the Mayan calendar?
I think the author is grasping at straws. He doesn't demonstrate anything and has no facts. Also, Terence McKenna came up with the 2012 theory on his own, before he knew anything about the Mayan calendar. He came up with a date that was one day off from the Mayans. I really think he would have been aware of the 5 year error and would have taken that into consideration in his equations.
This guy's so-called "math" tells us nothing.