labours plans for uk citizens

the so called 'voluntary' id card will become compulsary after the next election if labour win and you will also have to PAY to travel to your nearest of 69 'interview centres' (doesn't that sound sinister?) which will be set up to bag & tag you, sorry, process you or whatever newspeak they want to call it.

this will apply also to new passport applicants who will have to visit one of these centres and they will be forced to apply and pay for an id card.

visit the link to see which ministry of truth interview centre is your nearest...

Labour will force everyone to give fingerprints at ID card interview centres

All of these proposals can be found in last December's publication of the Government's Action Plan with the sole exception of the location of the local offices.

You may be concerned at the use to which ID cards will be put but I would be a lot more alarmed at the idea of electing a man to the potential position of Home Secretary, (David Davis), who is surprised that firstly it will be necessary to attend in person to have fingerprints taken, and secondly that nobody will be laying on free buses to go to the local offices.

Wow.....and usually there are a bunch of Brit's complaining about how the US is becoming a dictatorship........

so much so it seems they have forgotten to watch their own government.

How do the British put up with all the surveillance and why did they let it get so bad?

I really don't see any of this as a big deal, especially once the cards become integrated with other forms of ID it sounds like it's going to be a lot easier and cheaper than having to carry a billion seperate forms of ID. Besides, the interview sounds like a laugh.

"Are you spuggy ?"
"yes"
"really ?"
"yes"
"er... ok, welcome to England"
"I already live here"
"oh, right, ok, move along"

I think the whole police state thing is getting more than a little over hyped.

Justyc:I think "bag & tag you " is the best terminology ive heard, and is so right!!

Ferretman2 : sounds to me like you've "hit the nail on the head" so to speak!

Spuggy: sorry mate but if you think its gonna be a case of:
"Are you spuggy ?"
"yes"
"really ?"
"yes"
"er... ok, welcome to England"
"I already live here"
"oh, right, ok, move along"

The you have been seriously mislead!!, sorry to be the bearer of bad news mate?
Just to give you a few examples of what the plans are (in one or two cases are already in use ):
-So-called 'biometric' ePassports that log data about your travel when used -
- Centralised medical records without privacy
- Biometrics in schools
- ID interrogation centres
- Recording of all car journeys as a matter of course
This would be done using ANPR
- roadside fingerprinting

The NIR (National Identity Register) Will hold upto 50 categories of information on each of us, which can and will be changed & added to "without your consent"





[edit on 21-2-2007 by spymaster]

How are any of these a problem ?

So-called 'biometric' ePassports that log data about your travel when used -
- Centralised medical records without privacy
- Biometrics in schools
- ID interrogation centres
- Recording of all car journeys as a matter of course
This would be done using ANPR
- roadside fingerprinting

If anything these will all make my life easier, the only reason I'd have a problem with the govt knowing any of this is if I had something to hide, other than that it just centralises information. I want authorities to have easy quick access to my details it simply makes my life easier and crims lives harder, not to mentio the medical convenience, my ability to prove where I was and what I was doing etc, how are any of these "new" powers a problem for me ?

Spuggy..
You seem to be under the impression that only people who have "something to hide" are against the Identity Cards Act 2006?

Privacy, is something that we take for granted, but is slowly being taken away from us.

The Identity Cards Act 2006 will not stop terrorism, Identity Theft, Benefit Fraud, and such like.
Tony McNulty, the Home Office minister once responsible for identity cards said: "Perhaps in the past the government, in its enthusiasm, oversold the advantages of identity cards. We did suggest, or at least implied, that they might well be a panacea for identity fraud, for benefit fraud, terrorism, entitlement and access to public services. In its enthusiasm, the government had over-emphasised the benefits to the state rather than for the individual in providing a gold standard in proving your identity."

This scheme is NOT like other european ID card schemes but is much more like the the ones in some Middle Eastern countries and PR of China and even the scheme in China has given up on the "whole Bio-metrics" idea?

We in the u.k (other than NI, maybe sminkey will be able to confirm if this was the case in NI) have never had to carry multiple forms of ID on our persons, and i cannot for one min understand the need to allow one central computer to hold Absolutly every bit of information on me it wishes.

We are lead to believe, apparantly the information held on this database will be for use by including Revenue and Customs and all the intelligence and police agencies.
But as ,has been seen with DVLA this will likely lead to "third-party" use, by people such as Baliffs, debt collectors, Corperate companies, etc.

We move on then to the criminals, what happens to your information (which has happened in the past, on a lesser scale) to the criminal who works within the community that holds this information , who then decides to sell this information off?

I dont think "if i have nothing to hide then im not bothered" will really be a protection?

There are many things that we have in this country that we should be proud of, the last, is our Privacy and our Right to this, we shouldnt allow this to be taken away and then sold to the highest bidders!!

[edit on 21-2-2007 by spymaster]

I don't really see a problem with debt collectors or Baliffs having access to this information. Private companies are more worrying but they collate all this information allready, having a centralised repository won't make them any more or less intrusive.

I guess my problem is that whilst I understand peoples desire for privacy I don't really how it would actually effect them, and can only really see beneficial repercussions if any.

Spuggy,
Baliffs, debt collectors, and people in this type of field , to some degree have access to this type of information already, yes your are right mate.

A "nightmare-ish way" it could effect someone if this information is centralized is quite simply, "loss of identity" by this i mean:
By making ordinary life dependent on the reliability of a complex administrative system, the scheme makes myriad small errors potentially catastrophic. There's no hint from the government how it will deal with inevitably large numbers of mis-identifications and errors, or deliberate attacks on or corruption of what would become a critical piece of national infrastructure. A failure in any part of the system at a check might deny a person access to his or her rights or property or to public services, with no immediate solution or redress—"license to live" withdrawn.

I do value that "little bit" of privacy which we have left here in the u.k
and under the Human Rights Act (article 8)
(1) Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
(2) There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."


There is no debate that the NIR will be an intrusion into your private life as defined by Article 8 (1).

All the government has to do is justify it using Article 8 (2).

I just cant seem to understand "what benefits" we stand to gain from allowing this? sorry mate!

It seems that some people have been misled.

These are not just 'scary old Labour's Police state plans'.

IIRC over 32 countries are now demanding 'biometric passports'.....and not just scary old commie China either.

ID is being pushed as much by the private sector as public and having know identity theft happen to 2 people I can say that anything that makes that nightmare harder to happen is well worth considering.

Frankly it is a secretive and relatively uncontrolled private sector gathering as much private personal info that I'd be worried more about, not a publicly accountable and lawfully regulated (by an independent Judiciary and properly under the HR Act) state system.

I'm afraid that I find the "it won't stop terrorism" the most shallow and ridiculous criticism of this I've heard.

Of course it may not stop every individual act but the planning and conspiratorial activities of terrorists, as the experience of 'the Northern Ireland troubles' clearly showed, have always been thwarted by intelligence, tracking etc.
ID cards (even forged ID cards, if available to the criminals) will help to provide such intel and tracking in many cases which obviously will help smash such groups and make the ability to operate very difficult.

It may never be 100% protection but personally I have come to the conclusion that it is probably necessary.
I suspect I am far from alone in this conclusion, people might grumble but my bet is that the people will go along with this.

We saw the necessity of it and the sense of it in WW2, it is used in modern comparable democracies elsewhere without the sky falling in and a Police state does not have to 'follow' this at all.

Lets throw petrol on this and run.

Why if I am a British citizen do I need to carry an ID card?

This is the country I was born in. I would rather go to prison that carry an ID card in my own country.

If you apply to come to the UK, yes, carry an ID card. But not a citizen from birth.

We can solve this. Don't vote for them.

Hi Smink do you mean like the Intelligence before 9/11 and 7/7. Is it not the case that the ID cards are being driven by corporate greed and the obsession to monitor the population.

What happens when things go wrong, what measures will be put in place to protect people who are wrongly accused, will it be a case of the individual has to prove they are innocent. Will people become persona none grata because of system failure.

Why do we need then anyway, the main reason we get is it will stop terrorist activities well we all know it wont will it so whats the real reason.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Hi Smink do you mean like the Intelligence before 9/11 and 7/7.

- Well you do know what some people say about those events, right?

But in any event no, I was referring to the numerous occasions where thanks to the tracking, phone taps & intel etc etc over the years a great many lives were saved in Northern Ireland and in the rest of these islands.

(and as you know from our previous exchanges on another thread that we did - in fact still do - have a form of ID card already here in NI)

Is it not the case that the ID cards are being driven by corporate greed and the obsession to monitor the population.

- I wouldn't even deny that might be a part of this, but it still does not IMO make them worthless in other arenas.

What happens when things go wrong

- Sadly there is no 'if' about it, it's a human construct and so like every other human construct previously or in the future things are certain to go wrong at some point.

what measures will be put in place to protect people who are wrongly accused,

- That's why we have thing like the Human Rights Act, the Court at the House of Lords and being about to go to Strasbourg and the European Court.

Why do we need then anyway, the main reason we get is it will stop terrorist activities well we all know it wont will it so whats the real reason.

- I'm not sure that is why.......and I don't think anyone is seriously claiming they will 'stop' all terrorism; claiming they will greatly aid the fight against terrorism is quite another matter (and IMO a far more accurate and relevant comment).

We also need to be clear about what we are talking about, biometric passports or ID cards......or do people see them as one and the same?

I think there are some sound reasons, several of which make a good case for having them.

Frankly it is a secretive and relatively uncontrolled private sector gathering as much private personal info that I'd be worried more about, not a publicly accountable and lawfully regulated (by an independent Judiciary and properly under the HR Act) state system.

Agrees, this part I fnd kinda scary, I dont want private companies knowing everything about me, not that I have anything to hide, "oH wait he has a spare kidney, "lets kill him off so we have his organs"

I'm afraid that I find the "it won't stop terrorism" the most shallow and ridiculous criticism of this I've heard.

Why do we need then anyway, the main reason we get is it will stop terrorist activities well we all know it wont will it so whats the real reason.


I'm not sure that is why.......and I don't think anyone is seriously claiming they will 'stop' all terrorism; claiming they will greatly aid the fight against terrorism is quite another matter (and IMO a far more accurate and relevant comment).

Terroism will always be around, no matter what is done to try and stop it, it wont be stopped period. Doesnt matter if you wrap every single man woman and child in cotton wool, people who are hell bent on causing, death or fear will find a way of getting through to us all.