PAK-FA Officially Russian-Indian Joint Project!

Originally posted by gfad

Originally posted by Darkpr0
The link's dead for me, but if that's the 1-engined, long-nosed version of the Raptor it wasn't real. Nice looking piece of work though, and it looks like a feasible "light" design of the Raptor.

Darkpr0 are you thinking of these images:
If so these are prototypes and proposals for a new Japanese fighter not the PAKFA.

Yep, those were the ones. Sorry bout that, saw a thread a while back that identified them as PAK-FA prototypes, but the more recent thread displayed them as the J-xx. My bad.

Still can't seem to get that picture to work though...

Cant help, but think about this quote :


"My vision of the future is that one day India is going to be flying the F-35. I truly believe it. There is no comparison for the F-35—the French don't offer it, the Russians don't offer it. It only exists for US partners. One day the US and India will co-develop what's going to be next." - Richard Kirkland, vice president of Lockheed Martin



[edit on 7/2/07 by Stealth Spy]

reply to post by Stealth Spy


MCA is not dead. And when I say its not, then you would have to trust me. I work with one of those companies who are building interface Hardwares like ARM prototypes and Electronic hardwares for : DRDO, ISRO and HAL.

Tejas is seeing delays primarily because of two reasons: RADAR(one of the most advanced in its kind in the world at the moment)
Engine: The IAF has once again simply moved the goal post away for the HAL players to goal the ball in. Now After years of development the IAF has raised its power and thrust requirement for TEJAS engine, this is because they want to use the same design in other aircrafts.

reply to post by Karthik1981


Yea well the IAF doesn't move the goal post because its fun to do so or it likes to play donkey and carrot with HAL.

If the Tejas is to be of any benefit as an operational fighter, it must conform to minimum flight envelope characteristics that allow it to be competitive against other gen 4 a/c in the neighborhood a la FC-1, F-16, J-10 etc..
Now whether the IAF knew these characteristics when they specd out the Tejas, or are these requirements evolving every year, is to be seen.

I am interested to know which other a/c the Tejas engine is being proposed for.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
reply to post by Karthik1981

 

Yea well the IAF doesn't move the goal post because its fun to do so or it likes to play donkey and carrot with HAL.

If the Tejas is to be of any benefit as an operational fighter, it must conform to minimum flight envelope characteristics that allow it to be competitive against other gen 4 a/c in the neighborhood a la FC-1, F-16, J-10 etc..
Now whether the IAF knew these characteristics when they specd out the Tejas, or are these requirements evolving every year, is to be seen.

I am interested to know which other a/c the Tejas engine is being proposed for.

You know there was another fighter bomber Aircraft called HAL Marut in the 1960's. That fighter jet had a similar problem of being underpowered.

I will blame it on IAF, because, their Top-Brass never specify the Optimum power level they are looking at for an engine. They have vested interests.
IAF top brass always wants a Russkie Plane instead of a Home grown one, There is more to it. There are defence lobby groups, who simply get 10-15% of the Tender/project cost.Just search for ANURAG ARM 1176 virtual prototype on google. This particular tender has been floated and shelved 4 times since 2001.

Reason: This needs 112 IP cores out of which 45 Memory based IP Cores arent available outside USA or Canada.
The scientists in DRDO proposed development of every IP Core from the scratch in their own premises. but the Top Officials ridiculed the scientists.
especially ASDSP and USB 2.0 OTG and JTAGs.
The Top Officials simply suffocated the development, now you would want to know why?>
Answer: Foreign companies if provide alternate solutions, the lobby masters will get 10-15% which easily sum up as 2000,000-3000,000 INR per lobby-master. These masters own 200 Acres of Land on an average, they run educational institutes. Some even became one of the biggest service providers for the defence organizations.

Btw, they were trying to integrate two different technologies on one platform with an ARM processor.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
reply to post by Karthik1981

 

Yea well the IAF doesn't move the goal post because its fun to do so or it likes to play donkey and carrot with HAL.

If the Tejas is to be of any benefit as an operational fighter, it must conform to minimum flight envelope characteristics that allow it to be competitive against other gen 4 a/c in the neighborhood a la FC-1, F-16, J-10 etc..
Now whether the IAF knew these characteristics when they specd out the Tejas, or are these requirements evolving every year, is to be seen.

I am interested to know which other a/c the Tejas engine is being proposed for.

You know there was another fighter bomber Aircraft called HAL Marut in the 1960's. That fighter jet had a similar problem of being underpowered.

I will blame it on IAF, because, their Top-Brass never specify the Optimum power level they are looking at for an engine. They have vested interests.
IAF top brass always wants a Russkie Plane instead of a Home grown one, There is more to it. There are defence lobby groups, who simply get 10-15% of the Tender/project cost.Just search for ANURAG ARM 1176 virtual prototype on google. This particular tender has been floated and shelved 4 times since 2001.

Reason: This needs 112 IP cores out of which 45 Memory based IP Cores arent available outside USA or Canada.
The scientists in DRDO proposed development of every IP Core from the scratch in their own premises. but the Top Officials ridiculed the scientists.
especially ASDSP and USB 2.0 OTG and JTAGs.
The Top Officials simply suffocated the development, now you would want to know why?>
Answer: Foreign companies if provide alternate solutions, the lobby masters will get 10-15% which easily sum up as 2000,000-3000,000 INR per lobby-master. These masters own 200 Acres of Land on an average, they run educational institutes. Some even became one of the biggest service providers for the defence organizations.

Btw, they were trying to integrate two different technologies on one platform with an ARM processor.

Originally posted by Karthik1981

You know there was another fighter bomber Aircraft called HAL Marut in the 1960's. That fighter jet had a similar problem of being underpowered.

I will blame it on IAF, because, their Top-Brass never specify the Optimum power level they are looking at for an engine.

Yea well I have to disagree unless you give me proof in that particular case. Now I don't mean documented evidence, whitepapers, articles etc..
But you cannot make claims based on nothing but analogies to your situation.

You are right about the a/c being underpowered, wouldn't get off the ground nearly on full load. I can't see how an aircraft T/W ratio is something that is too hard to figure out. When you build an a/c, you KNOW its ferry weight, and so unless the IAF demanded a substandard T/W or decided to overload it later on. The HF-24 is a fighter bomber, so I rest my case.

Moreover, I have heard personal accounts of lowly fighter pilots (people who will not get any % of any $ deals) who claimed that EVERY single Marut was a different plane. Instrumentation, dials etc. ; nothing was the same in every aircraft and this proved to be a maintenance nightmare for IAF ground crew. I've heard of instances where instrument parts have to custom remade/ re-fitted to fit the plane.

And then we have the straight up screw ups: Tools left in the innards of planes sent to HAL for upgrades (real example of a Jaguar DARIN upgrade, instrumentation failures in bomb wiring fuses causing detonation on wing point (loss of plane and pilot).

They have vested interests.

The scientists in DRDO proposed development of every IP Core from the scratch in their own premises. but the Top Officials ridiculed the scientists.
especially ASDSP and USB 2.0 OTG and JTAGs.
The Top Officials simply suffocated the development, now you would want to know why?>

Well this is more of a chicken and egg problem. Can they develop those cores to the same specs and quality that are available in the intl market?
And even if they are not, then its fair to invest in the generation of that capability, in order to produce a self sufficient military industry.

Answer: Foreign companies if provide alternate solutions, the lobby masters will get 10-15% which easily sum up as 2000,000-3000,000 INR per lobby-master. These masters own 200 Acres of Land on an average, they run educational institutes. Some even became one of the biggest service providers for the defence organizations.

Yea, but what are you going to do about that? Defence procurement, expensive as it is, is rife with corruption and slush funds and the likes. Anywhere in the world.
The big defence companies in the world as where they are today because they got a free hand in investment from their host countries at opportune times like hot wars, cold wars, proxy wars. At times when countries could not depend on foreign sources. Wars of survival. Wars of attrition. And in these times, certain countries made their scientists and technicians work under lock and key, under threat of harm to self or family. And EVERYONE did that: the west, the east, the facists, the racists etc. etc.
That is where the real progress was made. India or Indians have never worked in that kind of pressure.

There is another variable here. The fact that countries like India are playing catchup in technology. That robs them of the luxury of giving a blank cheque to their local establishments because time and money to build a credible defence are painfully short.

However, one cannot solely depend foreign material, and so a balance has to be maintained and it can shift towards homegrown as it plays catch up with the rest.

That is why pilots fly underpowered homegrown jets, ground crews retrofit design flaws, and people give their lives because of screwups.

The point you make about people skimming off the big defence deals is true, but those people are always going to be there.

When the HALs and DRDOs become all powerful and technologically adept in the future, when the become world players: they will have people that will also skim off the top or bribe the decision makers in a competitive bid; say in another country like Indonesia (e.g.), and thus cripple the local industries there competing in that bid.
So what you complain off is inevitable. It can be controlled by RFIs, Media pressure etc etc., but it will always be there.

So media pressure can work both ways:

Seems they're (DRDO) bungling in the PR department as well!
livefist.blogspot.com...

At the earliest when can we have these birds flying over INDIA ??