Best Tank!

New Sovietskiy T-212UM1 "Black Eagle" Main Battle Tank


"Tjorny Aryol" (Black Eagle) was shown for the first time at an international exhibition of armaments in Russia in 1997 (picture). This tank has a entirey new thinking where the turret don't have any crew inside. They dwell in the main hull separated from the main gun ammunition that is stored in the rear and under the turret. The fireing system has automatic loading which increases the rate of fire. Minister of armaments, said (1997) Russia will be able to make 350 unit a year by 2005. It should have come into service in 1999, but did not. Rumors (in 2001) say it will be produced for export only and not be used by the Russia army. Time will tell.

Heavy tank

Weight: 50? tons
Length: 6,982 m
Width: 3,582 m
Height: 1,80 m
Armour: active mm
Gun: 125 mm
Crew; 3(-5?)
Engine: 16/1200 hps
turbo diesel
Speed: 54 km/h









I think this is the best battle tank.

~Nice. But can it compare to the m1-a1s state of the art controls and devices? i doubt it.

Originally posted by Jeffrey
~Nice. But can it compare to the m1-a1s state of the art controls and devices? i doubt it.

Surely it can..



And will..

But this whole topic is quite futile as any of following (at least..) :

M1 series
Challengers
Leopards
T-72/80/90

Can destroy each others easily..

Its just matter who hits first..

And that depents on the gunner and tactical intel..



And btw,

M1A3 is the 'state-of-the-art'.. not M1A1..

i think you mean m1a2 fulcrum

here is the black eagle which can reap abrams a new one
its a deeply modernized T-80U




ukrainians also have good tanks like the t-84 OPLOT, yatagan etc..

and the abrams series dont have all that fancy Shtora-1 EOCM system and Arena Missile Protection system etc....


a video of shtora in action:

www.rusarm.ru...


ill get you an arena video later, i had it somewhere too

Your right..

I did ment 3th M1..

But it isnt A3 as i put it..

As there are 3 M1s..

M1, M1A1 and M1A2..



Thanks for correcting..

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Originally posted by Jeffrey
~Nice. But can it compare to the m1-a1s state of the art controls and devices? i doubt it.

Surely it can..

And will..

But this whole topic is quite futile as any of following (at least..) :

M1 series
Challengers
Leopards
T-72/80/90

Can destroy each others easily..

Its just matter who hits first..

And that depents on the gunner and tactical intel..

And btw,

M1A3 is the 'state-of-the-art'.. not M1A1..

Post some info about the other state of the art tanks so

they could be compared.

does the russian tank have DU armouring to prevent most shells from penetrating?
also, one of the main problems with these state of the art tanks is that... the computer systems crash. alot...
during war games a year or two before the 2nd gulf war, they had to keep resetting the tanks

Rather high profile...for a modern tank...

I'll go with the British Chopham armored tanks, thanks...

Originally posted by browha
does the russian tank have DU armouring to prevent most shells from penetrating?
also, one of the main problems with these state of the art tanks is that... the computer systems crash. alot...
during war games a year or two before the 2nd gulf war, they had to keep resetting the tanks

I was just going to say something about that. People tend to compare tanks, helicopters, and jets by looking at top speed, guns, armor, etc. But in todays hightech weapons it is often the computer systems that decide who win. Why can an F15 pick off Iraqi jets before the Iraqis new what hit them, not because the F-15s have superior cornering ability. Because their computer system is superior and allows them to do it.

Unfortuntely, most stats don't talk about the computer systems.

Stats look good on paper....
A tank may look good running around a test proving ground....
It may even look "handsome" or "beautiful"....
But....
As with aircraft, ships, its the same with MBT's.....
It boils down to:
* IT (vetronics/electronics/technology)
* crew and training

A MBT, as with an aircraft or a vessel, is only as good as the technology that is given to the crew to use and the training of the crew to use that technology to maximum effeciency.......


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by browha
does the russian tank have DU armouring to prevent most shells from penetrating?

no, russian tanks got RHA and ERA like the kaktus or kontakt-5 which is way better then chobham, the new eras defeated APFDS rounds.


does american tanks got EOCMDAS or any APS systems on their tanks?

[Edited on 17-11-2003 by SectorGaza]

Way better?
Got an data to prove your assertions Gaza?
I haven't found any information that shows the battlefield proof of what you are implying.
In such...are you talking in general terms or theoy?

The 'protection' you speak of will only protect from a "poosible' first kill shot.
Are you implying, as many have about the famed and mythic Russian "cloaking devices" or "bolt-on plasma generators," that this 'protection' will help you when targeted by two or three MBT's? Maybe they can take them there "bolt-on plasma generators" and place them on the likes of the "Black Eagle", which is being proclaimed the Best MBT in the world and isn't even being produced yet! Maybe those T-95's I have been hearing so much about............
Good grief......


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 17-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Way better?
Got an data to prove your assertions Gaza?
I haven't found any information that shows the battlefield proof of what you are implying.
In such...are you talking in general terms or theoy?

The 'protection' you speak of will only protect from a "poosible' first kill shot.
Are you implying, as many have about the famed and mythic Russian "cloaking devices" or "bolt-on plasma generators," that this 'protection' will help you when targeted by two or three MBT's? Maybe they can take them there "bolt-on plasma generators" and place them on the likes of the "Black Eagle", which is being proclaimed the Best MBT in the world and isn't even being produced yet! Maybe those T-95's I have been hearing so much about............
Good grief......


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 17-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Kaktus is 20 years newer and lighter then chohbam, and as you saw your abramses chobbham is owned by RPG's and who talked about plasma crap?
im talking about ACTIVE PROTECTION SYSTEMS and electro-optical counter-measures defense like shtora-1 arena Shatjor and drozd/drozd-2 which american tanks lack.

russian tanks can also fire ATGMS from their guns.

Shotra-1 works like this (see video above):

The Shtora has two combat roles. In the first role, it works against IR guided ATGMs, by aligning the turret front to the incoming ATGM and using IR emitters to send false signals which scramble the ATGM guidance system. The principle involved is the following.

Wire-guided missiles such as the American TOW are guided to the target by means of a wire and a flare on the back of the missile. The flare is used to keep a 'reference point' of the missile in relationship to the target lock held by the operator, and the guidance computer tries to put the flare on the reference point. Shtora emitters create a large hotspot, essentially tricking the missile guidance into following the Shtora hotspot instead of the flare hotspot, resulting in faulty course corrections by the ATGW computer. In fact, the computer shall usually believe that no horisontal course correction is necessary since the false flare comes from the same direction as the targeted tank, while vertical corrections shall cause ATGM to either dive into the ground or climb into the sky, depending on whether the operator holds the lock below or above the emitters.

The second part of the system defeats laser guided weapons. When a laser beam is detected the Shtora informs the crew with light and sound; it then launches laser defeating smoke grenades, which enshroud the tank and break or degrade the lock. The tank commander can also press a button that will turn the turret front to the laser to meet incoming ATGM with the best protected section and to engage the laser beam source with the maingun.


arena works like this (if you want to see videos ask me):

Arena is intended to protect tanks from antitank grenades and ATGMs, including top-attack ATGMs.
The system incorporates the following engineering solutions:

use of a multi-functional millimetre radar with "instant" scanning of all protected sector to detect and track antitank targets;
use of focused instant-effect protective ammunition for aimed destruction of incoming targets;
control equipment, represented by a specialized computer that provides automatic control over radar operation and system as a whole, as well as device for serviceability control of the system and its integrated parts and units.
Protective ammunition is housed in silo sections arranged around the turret. The rack-mounted radar is fixed on the turret roof. All other equipment is housed inside the turret. Connecting cables from the turret run inside the radar rack without affecting the sealing of the fighting compartment.

The system is switched on from the commander's control panel and then operates automatically. On completion of power-on self-test, the system switches to combat mode. All information on the modes of operation and serviceability of the system and its integrated units is displayed on the control panel.


In combat mode of operation, the radar searches for targets and locates them during their approach to the tank. Once the threat is detected the radar switches to the target tracking mode, thereby obtaining data on the moving target and entering the data into the computer. After processing the entered data, the computer selects one of the siloes and determines the time for its activation. At the determined moment, the computer generates command signals to the selected protective ammunition. When the later detonates it creats a directed stream of destructive elements which destroys any target within this field, eliminating the shaped-charge effect of the threat or reducing it to levels that are not dangerous to the tank.

Sector Gaza.......
Thats all great information dude...really......
But.....
Let me ask you again:
You said this:
"Kaktus is 20 years newer and lighter then chohbam, and as you saw your abramses chobbham is owned by RPG's and who talked about plasma crap?
im talking about ACTIVE PROTECTION SYSTEMS and electro-optical counter-measures defense like shtora-1 arena Shatjor and drozd/drozd-2 which american tanks lack."

The question that I was asking is: Show some battlefield data showing that this/these system(s) are what they are theoretically showing and describing on paper. Can you provide, "real-time" actual combat information and data to say and claim that this system does what it does?
If not.....then it is all academic and the information and theory is sound but until it is proven, it amounts to no more than "claims".
Thats the "data" I was refering to......does the system work in an actual battlefield situation(s) or condition(s).

Thank you again for the great information.

regards
seekerof

SectorGaza,
Great info. Thank you.

i can show you videos of the systems work, i posted a link to the shtora-1 system already, i cann show you video to Arena/drozd system also if you want.

perso.numericable.fr...
Arena-equipped tank being fired at with SPG-9 recoilless rifle. Result - no damage to test armor plate.


perso.numericable.fr...
Arena-equipped tank being fired at with 9M111M Fagot-M (AT-4 Spigot-B) ATGM. Result - residual crater 10-15mm deep.



perso.numericable.fr...
Arena-equipped tank being fired at with 9M114 Shturm (AT-6 Spiral) ATGM. Result - cluster of residual craters 10-20mm deep.

Originally posted by SectorGaza

Originally posted by Seekerof
Way better?
Got an data to prove your assertions Gaza?
I haven't found any information that shows the battlefield proof of what you are implying.
In such...are you talking in general terms or theoy?

The 'protection' you speak of will only protect from a "poosible' first kill shot.
Are you implying, as many have about the famed and mythic Russian "cloaking devices" or "bolt-on plasma generators," that this 'protection' will help you when targeted by two or three MBT's? Maybe they can take them there "bolt-on plasma generators" and place them on the likes of the "Black Eagle", which is being proclaimed the Best MBT in the world and isn't even being produced yet! Maybe those T-95's I have been hearing so much about............
Good grief......


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 17-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Kaktus is 20 years newer

and lighter then chohbam, and as you saw your abramses chobbham is owned by RPG's

and who talked about plasma crap?
im talking about ACTIVE PROTECTION SYSTEMS and electro-optical counter-measures defense like shtora-1 arena Shatjor and drozd/drozd-2 which american tanks lack.

russian tanks can also fire ATGMS from their guns.

Shotra-1 works like this (see video above):

The Shtora has two combat roles. In the first role, it works against IR guided ATGMs, by aligning the turret front to the incoming ATGM and using IR emitters to send false signals which scramble the ATGM guidance system. The principle involved is the following.

Wire-guided missiles such as the American TOW are guided to the target by means of a wire and a flare on the back of the missile. The flare is used to keep a 'reference point' of the missile in relationship to the target lock held by the operator, and the guidance computer tries to put the flare on the reference point. Shtora emitters create a large hotspot, essentially tricking the missile guidance into following the Shtora hotspot instead of the flare hotspot, resulting in faulty course corrections by the ATGW computer. In fact, the computer shall usually believe that no horisontal course correction is necessary since the false flare comes from the same direction as the targeted tank, while vertical corrections shall cause ATGM to either dive into the ground or climb into the sky, depending on whether the operator holds the lock below or above the emitters.

The second part of the system defeats laser guided weapons. When a laser beam is detected the Shtora informs the crew with light and sound; it then launches laser defeating smoke grenades, which enshroud the tank and break or degrade the lock. The tank commander can also press a button that will turn the turret front to the laser to meet incoming ATGM with the best protected section and to engage the laser beam source with the maingun.


arena works like this (if you want to see videos ask me):

Arena is intended to protect tanks from antitank grenades and ATGMs, including top-attack ATGMs.
The system incorporates the following engineering solutions:

use of a multi-functional millimetre radar with "instant" scanning of all protected sector to detect and track antitank targets;
use of focused instant-effect protective ammunition for aimed destruction of incoming targets;
control equipment, represented by a specialized computer that provides automatic control over radar operation and system as a whole, as well as device for serviceability control of the system and its integrated parts and units.
Protective ammunition is housed in silo sections arranged around the turret. The rack-mounted radar is fixed on the turret roof. All other equipment is housed inside the turret. Connecting cables from the turret run inside the radar rack without affecting the sealing of the fighting compartment.

The system is switched on from the commander's control panel and then operates automatically. On completion of power-on self-test, the system switches to combat mode. All information on the modes of operation and serviceability of the system and its integrated units is displayed on the control panel.


In combat mode of operation, the radar searches for targets and locates them during their approach to the tank. Once the threat is detected the radar switches to the target tracking mode, thereby obtaining data on the moving target and entering the data into the computer. After processing the entered data, the computer selects one of the siloes and determines the time for its activation. At the determined moment, the computer generates command signals to the selected protective ammunition. When the later detonates it creats a directed stream of destructive elements which destroys any target within this field, eliminating the shaped-charge effect of the threat or reducing it to levels that are not dangerous to the tank.

Damn Gaza I really learned something today!

Thats some good info you got!

I would have to say the M-1 A3. It is very advanced and has some of the best armour. It does get #y gas mileage though.