Unfair Test - But whats the answer ??

This is not really about secret aircraft and its probably a dumb question....but what the hell.

If you take a Spitfire (argueably the best WW2 fighter) and a current jet fighter like an F16 or a Tornado etc, if you take away the jets missiles so it only has its guns and limit the speed to the max of the spitfire, which is more manoverable the jet plane or the piston engine plane, i know its not fair for the jet but....? Also lets assume pilots are exactly equal.

Spitfire Mk XVI Technical Data

Entered production 1944
Weight 7,500 lbs
Speed 405 mph at 22,000�
Engine Packard Merlin 266

Armament
2 x 20 mm cannon
4 x .303 machine guns

I would have to say the spitfire. It would be smaller and better suited for that enviroment. But if the jet opened up with its 20mm guns the spitfire would be dead. I am pretty sure that .303 are to small to hurt a modern jet that much.

The Raptor can fly as quaoted:
"Paul Metz said that the F-22 can maintain controlled flight at the cruising range "of a Piper Cub", and estimates say it can fly effectively at speeds as low as 80 knots."
Link:
www.geocities.com...

Whats this mean.....just shows how versitile this aircraft is.......
In relation to you question......
ANY jet would win.
Why?
Cause any decent jet pilot will use one thing the Spitfire can not use.....: AFTERBURNERS (speed).
In other words, a pilot can literally play "hit and run" all day long till the Spitfire is toast.........


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 16-11-2003 by Seekerof]

I just said the the Spitfire would win because he said that the speed of the jet would be limited to the top speed of the Spitfire.

I would still take the Raptor.....and limiting the Jet, as per the parameters, is an ulmost unrealistic condition.

That would be like asking: Can a Spitfire win in a fight with a jet if the Spitfire was equipped with jet engines.....


regards
seekerof

Sheer speed would win the fight, I agree. Speed in a dogfight is life, plus you have the advantage of radar and targetting funnels on the F-22's HUD.

Now, a Spitfire vs. Apache fight would be something...

You know there is a great dogfight in the movie Final Countdown. its between two japanese zero's and two american F-14's.

Is that the one where the USS Nimitz encounters a storm and goes back in time? I watched that a few years ago.

This seemed like a fun thread to jump in (sorta tired of the ole US vs Russian fighter debate)...

so it only has its guns and limit the speed to the max of the spitfire, which is more manoverable the jet plane or the piston engine plane

The Raptor would clean the Spitfire's proverbial clock...
Why?
Sure, the Spitfire can turn on a dime - after all its much smaller and highly manueverable..
BUT...
The F-22 Raptor has the spitfire beat on both acceleration and stopping power... the Raptor may in this test be limited to 400 knots but what it can do inside that powerband is exponentially greater than what the Spitfire could do.

Look at it like cars on a race course - say you've got one of those new Ferrari's with the funny looking nose and one of those cute little Volkswagen Beetles - put them both on a road course and tell them not to exceed 100mph... then put a radar enhanced head up display on the Ferrari and mate it to an M61 which is is a hydraulically driven, 6 barreled, air cooled, electric gatlin gun, with selectable rates of fire of either 4000 or 6000 rounds per minute...
Of course in this example the Beetle would be fitted with a 303 whatever with a set of iron cross hairs for the driver to look through...

I'd put my money on the Ferrari... and similarly, I'd put my money on the Raptor as opposed to the Spitfire.

Come to think about it.. just the jet wash from those twin 35,000 lb Pratt & Whitneys could make things.. umm... shall we say "interesting" for the Spitfire...


[Edited on 16-11-2003 by intelgurl]

can a jet go that slow and still be maneouverable?

I do know that the guns (cannons), on a jet are far better than that of a spitfire though.

Originally posted by Kobyoshimaru
This is not really about secret aircraft and its probably a dumb question....but what the hell.

If you take a Spitfire (argueably the best WW2 fighter) and a current jet fighter like an F16 or a Tornado etc, if you take away the jets missiles so it only has its guns and limit the speed to the max of the spitfire, which is more manoverable the jet plane or the piston engine plane, i know its not fair for the jet but....? Also lets assume pilots are exactly equal.

Spitfire Mk XVI Technical Data

Entered production 1944
Weight 7,500 lbs
Speed 405 mph at 22,000�
Engine Packard Merlin 266

Armament
2 x 20 mm cannon
4 x .303 machine guns

i dont know much about planes. I have got to say that the spitfire would be more manueverable. The jet would weigh a lot more.

That was his question...MANEUVERABILITY.

Intelgurl is dead on with the performance issues, but the question is which would be more maneuverable at this speed range.

Interesting question, actually.

What is the stall speed for a typical jet like the f-18 for example?

that is the real issue isn't it?

This question may have been answered years ago. Look into WW2 records of confrontations between fighters and low speed observation aircraft such as the Fiesler FI 156. It was almost impossible to shoot down a FI 156 with a fighter (such as the P 51) unless the pilot of the Fiesler was caught by suprise. If the pilot of the FI 156 detected the oncoming fighter, he just make a sharp turn inside the turning radius of the fighter. Also the FI 156 could drop "down to the deck" and this would place the fighter at a disadvantage. The fighter pilot had to watch several things - the FI 156, the obstacles the FI 156 were flying around and over, the ground, and not attempting high g turns near the ground. All the Fiesler pilot had to do is avoid obstacles. (The stern chase is the long chase). This created a formula for the fighter pilot to smack his aeroplane into the ground.

In this case I think that the Spitfire could avoid being shot down by the tactic of turning inside the Raptor. Even though the Raptor may be controllable to 80 knots, it is still a much heavier aircraft with a smaller wing. When it comes to maneuverability, wing loading is important and I think that the Spit's wing loading was much lower than the Raptor's.

However give me a FI 156 B with a crew and I will clean the clock of the Raptor almost every time under the same conditions. (Note the B version of the FI 156).

Jag, thats a good point. Speed may prove to be a disadvantage. In cases like the one you mentioned.

However, the guns on a modern jet are computer controlled for leading, bullet drop, etc. Targeting at a distance wouldn't be a problem, and the rate of fire would take the spitfire down anyway

Maybe, Maybe Dreamstone. What if we were to disable the Raptor's computers and make it pilot vs pilot? Also a lot of times, the high tech solution is not always the best. Still I would go into such a confrontation with a FI 156 B with a full crew (again note the B model) and still think I would have a good chance.

By modern (in 60/70s) jets against P-51 and Spitfire..

ww2 fighters proved themself quite hard to kill, maybe even impossible..

Ok.. looks like most of the usual regulars have had something to say on the subject....
So let me ask you this...

How would an A-10 do against a Spitfire - again, no missiles - just guns?

(God help whoever is in the crosshairs of that 30mm GAU-8A)

Now THAT'S an interesting one.

However, the dogfighting rule of thumb is energy is life. In other words, how much speed you have or potential energy from altitude that you can turn into speed.

Corollary to that rule is rate kills, ie how fast you can turn your crate to get guns on target.

Turn Rates for Various Fighters

Spitfire Mk XIV Performance Testing

Note that the airspeed here is in KEAS. We'll also take the Spitfire to be Mark XIV, which could do around 448mph with a 2000hp engine.

A-10 Stats

USAF A-10 Fact Sheet

Now we know where intelgurl got her pic from! Unfortunately, no turn rates! However, the USAF says the aircraft is "slow but maneuvrable."

So, saying that speeds and acceleration are roughly equal, and perhaps with the Spit having the faster turn rate, we can say that the Spit has better odds of getting on the A-10's tail. So what then? The Spitfires twin 20mm cannons will have a tough time carving up the beast! The A-10 isn't called "the flying tank" for nothing. The Spitfire can probably carry on firing until it runs out of ammunition, unless it damages both engines or manages to hit the cockpit and kill or injure the pilot - he / she's only protected from ground fire by that titanium bathtub.

An even match, but the Spit pilot will need to be a very good shot to come out on top... and we don't need to wonder what will happen if those 30mm DU rounds stare coming the Spit's way...

[Edited on 17-11-2003 by Lampyridae]

Originally posted by intelgurl
This seemed like a fun thread to jump in (sorta tired of the ole US vs Russian fighter debate)...

so it only has its guns and limit the speed to the max of the spitfire, which is more manoverable the jet plane or the piston engine plane

The Raptor would clean the Spitfire's proverbial clock...
Why?
Sure, the Spitfire can turn on a dime - after all its much smaller and highly manueverable..
BUT...
The F-22 Raptor has the spitfire beat on both acceleration and stopping power... the Raptor may in this test be limited to 400 knots but what it can do inside that powerband is exponentially greater than what the Spitfire could do.

Look at it like cars on a race course - say you've got one of those new Ferrari's with the funny looking nose and one of those cute little Volkswagen Beetles - put them both on a road course and tell them not to exceed 100mph... then put a radar enhanced head up display on the Ferrari and mate it to an M61 which is is a hydraulically driven, 6 barreled, air cooled, electric gatlin gun, with selectable rates of fire of either 4000 or 6000 rounds per minute...
Of course in this example the Beetle would be fitted with a 303 whatever with a set of iron cross hairs for the driver to look through...

I'd put my money on the Ferrari... and similarly, I'd put my money on the Raptor as opposed to the Spitfire.

Come to think about it.. just the jet wash from those twin 35,000 lb Pratt & Whitneys could make things.. umm... shall we say "interesting" for the Spitfire...


[Edited on 16-11-2003 by intelgurl]

I bet on the beetle.....when the farrari shoots off in front off the line the guy in the beetle whill shoot the ferrari

Good example though.