WTC 7 photo's, all day on 9/11

First we need a map and the extension of the debris fields of the collapses :
Let's find one at this website : www.geocities.com...
which took it obviously from a NIST report.



NOTE please, the strange heavy (dark orange colored) debris fields extending (esp.) west- and eastwards for WTC 1.
The heavy debris fields to the north and south are however, equally spread out.
According to this map, heavy debris never reached the south facade of WTC 7.

QUESTION : a logical observation following out of the fact that WTC 1 has a pronounced westward extension of its heavy debris fields would be, that the top portion of that tower leaned first to the west and then toppled over to the west.
We may even conclude that the top breaking off was the longest one for WTC 1, since its debris reached to the exterior collumns of the WFC Winter Garden complex.

Same goes for WTC 2, there the most heavy debris felt to the east, so its top portion must have leaned first to the east and then toppled over to the east.
Can you proof this with actual events seen in pictures or videos?

Then we concentrate on the WTC 7 pictures during the day of 11 September 2001 :

First a special picture, because of the angle it was taken :



The following picture comes from this forum :
www.911truthseekers.org...
and is probably for the color green elevated, since the "identical" one under it, seems original.
Forum page title : Dr. Firmage of BYU doesn't address 9/11 Issues.
Probably taken after the second collapse, of the WTC 1, North Tower.
The corner edge damage on the WFC 3 building, with the Verizon building in the top background, is clearly to see.
No visible damage to see on the roof of the Winter Garden, (camera angle?).









A short video with lots of visible smoke behind WTC 7 can be found at the Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer Guide site,
www.ccdominoes.com... :
The link to the video is :
911myths.com... ,and a still picture (bottom one) from this short video :



The above building to the left, the white one with the "step" in it and the few dark broken window holes, is the front West St. corner from the WFC 2 building. It doesn't have the extensive right corner damage, as we see in the first above picture. The corner in the first above picture is the right West St. front corner from the WFC 3 building, with the Verizon building (also known as the NY Telephone building) in the left background high behind it.
In the above last screenshot, the bottom right corner of the Verizon building is just to see as a white structure, and it's shadow falls on the opposite side of the Washington St. side of the WTC 7, under the 20th floor west windows.

One could recognise (with a lot of imagination) inside the heavy smoke in the 911myths.com... short video a dark gaping square hole in the middle of the south frontside of WTC 7, the side where some debris from the WTC 1, North Tower collapse, supposedly ripped away a substantial part of that south facade.
The interesting thing I see, is a flashing spot of light in the middle of that dark smoky hole, and while I do not believe that it is a reflection of the sun, since the side of the WFC 2 in the foreground is clearly not lighted by the sun, it still could be a reflection within very strict time parameters. That facade stands about 30° to the south facade of the WTC 7, so if it is the suns reflection, then we have a clear time span for the time of day that the video was taken. The west side of WTC 7 is full in the sun, while the south side is at the most sun-strifed .
My guess: somewhere around 17:00 hrs, since the north axis of Manhattan is nearly parallel with West Street, (In fact circa 7° off to the west) and the sun travels during the day from east to west.

Why all these words? Because one can observe in the video, that the factual smoke from WTC 7 is mixed at the bottom, around the 20th floor of WTC 7, with greyish-white smoke from the North Tower burning debris and WTC 5 and 6 burning debris.
Remember, the wind was blowing that day from a NNE direction. Thus it formed a vortex behind WTC 7's south front, which sucked a lot of smoke from the burning debris from WTC 5 and 6 and WTC 1 into it.

""Looking south from the 29th floor of 40 Harrison
Street, three blocks north of the former trade center."" ""7 World Trade Center, at about 2:30PM.""



""7 World Trade Center on fire""




""The very large, covered pedestrian foot bridge, over the
West Side Highway had collapsed onto the highway as a
result of being hit by debris from one of the Twin Towers.""


""1. Former WTC Twin Towers behind the building (LT:WTC 7).
2. Direction (LT:East side) of 7 World Trade Center.
3. The damaged, World Financial Center
4. The Collapsed Pedestrian foot bridge.""












The second picture to the right (endstage of WTC 7 collapse) is for me the proof that all the
big smoke collumns we see in all the other pictures from WTC 7 during the day of 9/11 were
in fact mostly smoke from the burning and smoldering remnants and debris of WTC 5 and 6,
and WTC 1 and 2.
Because that same smoke collumn is still going skywards, while WTC 7 is totally collapsed.


Only in the next Frank Didik picture you start to see the whitish smoke from the WTC 7 collapse rising skywards,
in front of that other smoke collumn. And the next picture shows that the factual collapse-smoke from WTC 7 is
quickly fading away, leaving the still huge smoke collumn of WTC 6+1.



The Frank Didik pictures shown here are the nrs 18 to 31. There are another row of after collapse pictures at his site from 32 to 43.
You can get the hires pictures from Frank if you email him personally and give him a good reason to ask for them.
( His website : www.didik.com... )

This website tries to debunk a lot of non-official conspiracy material, while trying to proof the official conspiracy.
They bring up quite some good material, but do not realize the real big holes in the official story :
www.geocities.com...
They have a very good video from another debunking website, www.911myths.com... , of the south side of a burning WTC 7, but how convenient, that video is shot from such an angle, that it is impossible to see the "gaping hole" in the south facade.
( Video : www.911myths.com... )
One thing however is quite good to see. That the smoke coming in effect from the south facade of WTC 7, is just a small portion of all the smoke rising there.
And it doesn't look like a raging fire too. It more looks like some smoldering of office furniture on several floors, giving off a dark sooted smoke.

This next picture comes from another debunking website, www.ccdominoes.com... .



""Looking south towards ruins of WTC 6 and 1. WTC 7 is at left. Photographer is 200 meters from WTC 1.""
The aluminum cladding right in the foreground of this picture (looking south into Washington St.) is blown away from WTC 6 or WTC 1.
The debris in Washington St. seems to be mostly lightweight also. In the distance the crumpled south wall of WTC 6 can be seen.
It seems that a 10 meter high piece of WTC 1 or 6 heavy debris is resting against the southwest corner of WTC 7.
This could be the part that has inflicted the damage to the southwest corner higher up, and fell down afterwards.

This picture comes from 911research.wtc7.net .
911research.wtc7.net...


This looks like the WTC 7 side on West Broadway, the side opposite of the U.S. Post Office (Federal Building). The photographer stood then on Vesey St.
There is a strange movement of the smoke from the 7 burning windows, it moves to the north, instead of all the smoke at the south side which moves to the southeast. You also see the mix of very dark black smoke and a lot of white smoke going up from the windows adjacent to the last two burning windows. And the color of the south side smoke is brownish. Colors are subjective in all these pics, you never know exactly how the photographer set his camera settings.


911research.wtc7.net...



That huge crater in WTC 6 could have been caused by the hat truss of WTC 1. That was a damn heavy construction, made from very strong I beams, U beams and H beams, all welded and clamped together to a giant multiple tons construction to hold the outside walls together in connection with the inner core top collumns.
We see that all debris is square of nature and that hat truss was a square object too.
But how come then, that all the 8 visible WTC 6 craterholes are circular of nature?

I am really waiting for a logical explanation of all those round, deep crater-like holes in WTC 6.
Didn't found one on the web, up till now.

Exerpt from www.ccdominoes.com... :

"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan

The sentence from Lieutenant William Ryan : ""the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything"" makes it very clear, that the most substantial part of that smoke collumn rising from the south side of WTC 7 all day, was not from WTC 7, but from the other collapsed buildings behind it, which were ""burning like crazy."
I find it very strange that not ONE clear picture of the "officially declared" center damage in the south facade exists to this day.
The best positions for a good shot of that damage would have been from the heli's hoovering around all day.
A heli from the NYPD made that clear shot of the southwest corner damage (Verizon side) from above we know from 1 year ago,



and made hundreds of other detailed pictures from the damage to WTC 1 and 2, which were all publicized in the final reports from NIST, so it seems very arkward that the same heli's suddenly didn't have time anymore to concentrate on the remaining building in distress, the WTC 7.
I am sure that there are good pictures of the south facade of WTC 7, during the whole day of 9/11, and that those pictures are the reason why NIST is trying to outsource the last remaining report they must offer the public. The famous -final- WTC 7 report.
So they can lay the blame at a third party when the obvious holes in their theories will be explained.

What they have publicized up till now is based on a few "supposes", clearly gripped out of thin air, especially the socalled south front center damage drawing, (see for drawing, this page : www.geocities.com... ), where they draw a totally hypothetical deep hole, caused by WTC 1 (North Tower) debris, so as to be able to set up a theory of collapse, where they needed a few center collumns to be heavily damaged, to be able at all to explain a total building failure like we all saw happened that day of 9/11.

Just imagine the despair of these NIST researchers, to have to explain a perfect down on the footprint implosion, to be caused by solely front damage, at the smallest front of the building. The back front was a lot wider.
This should have caused a natural hinge-type collapse, resulting in a toppling over of WTC 7 southwards, over the debris of WTC 6 and WTC 1.
Especially since WTC 7 was so small (thin) from north-back to south-front, compared to its height and wide.

Two more

These folowing WTC 7 photo's come from Prof.Jones website,
www.physics.byu.edu...
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?

I have editted one of his texts, "WTC 7 on afternoon of 9-11-01", which is still erronomous in my opinion.





WTC 7 collapsed completely, onto its own footprint.





WTC 7: A 47-Story, steel-frame building.
Verizon hotel left, U.S.Postoffice right.
The 2 dark banded floors are from OEM.

Next Photo :
WTC 7 in the late morning of 9-11-01.(see sunlight, shadows)
WTC 7 is the tall sky-scraper in the background, right.
Seen from Church St.,corner Liberty St.(Text-edit by LT/)



Original text under photo :
WTC 7 on afternoon of 9-11-01.
WTC 7 is the tall sky-scraper in the background, right.
Seen from WTC plaza area.

ONCE again: the photo at the right shows unmistakingly, that there were no major fires burning at the south facade
of WTC 7, around 11:30 in the morning. So, an hour after the collapse of WTC 1 north tower (of which big chunks
should have caused a gaping hole in the south facade), there is no fire visible at the visible parts of WTC 7.
However, there is a huge smoke collumn visible to the left, the smoke from burning debris from the North Tower collapse,
and the heavily damaged parts of WTC 6, which both burned like hell, as firefighters on the scene remarked, see above.
It is also obvious, that most of the pyroclastic clouds from both tower collapses settled down already within an hour
after the last collapse, at 10:28:31 AM. That means most dust particles were coarse. The fine dust has probably been
blown away already by the wind coming from the Northeast, over south lower Manhattan and the Hudson river.
ONCE again: The seemingly huge smoke collumns coming from the south facade in other pictures, is the sucked up
smoke from heavy burning debris from WTC 1 and 6. This is sucked up by the wind vortex formed all day behind the
south facade of WTC 7.
This is especially good to see in the next pictures, which come from one of this site's pdf'ed essays :
www.jod911.com... (Journal of debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories)





The above is a clearly photoshopped Spak photo, see the firehoses erased in the right bottom.

The next picture shows the relatively small white smoke rising from the damaged south corner of WTC 7, and shows clearly how the bulk of the greyish smoke of the heavy burning WTC 6 and North Tower remains mixes with this white smoke, given the impression seen from a north view, that all this smoke came from WTC 7 south face. The north wind formed a strong vortex behind that WTC 7 south face !




Late afternoon photo of south facade of WTC 7, no fires, only smoke, and clearly to see in the full version, that the bulk of the smoke originates from WTC 6 burning like hell, as one firefighter said. It's smoke is sucked into the strong vortex formed by moderate North-South wind blowing around both sides of WTC 7.
Question : why is there nearly no heavy white dust to see on the street in the foreground, and on the windows aside? Other streets were covered with 10 cm thick blanket of dust.

Originally posted by LaBTop
Late afternoon photo of south facade of WTC 7, no fires, only smoke

So what caused the smoke?

Does anybody see what I see?

This is picture 1765 of the Bill Biggart photo archive.
It's one of his last ones, before he died, killed in the collapse of the North Tower.

Which one of the following scenario's is the right one?

If this is the right position of this picture, then Bill must have stood on the corner of Vesey Street and West Street, with the WFC 3 on his right hand, which indeed has a few step-backs in its facade, and has these square blueish windows, as can be seen in other pictures.
He must have stood in the middle of the open space at the corner across Vesey Street and the WFC 3, to obtain this perspective in the picture below.

Where is this high collumn of belging white smoke then originating from, behind WFC 3 ? The South Tower collapse heap?
And why does that smoke blow perpendicular on the north wind direction ?
And if he stood there on that corner, why do I have seen photo's where you can see that there was no debris shattered on the corner of those streets?
(See the exerpt at the end, why I find the fact that he seemed to have died from debris, at the South Bridge on West Street, such an unfitting fact)
Nearly all of the heavy and lighter debris fell in a cross-formed pattern, straight out of the 4 facades from the North Tower.
If he stood in that open space, he stood there reasonably safe for any debris.

ORIGINAL PICTURE POSITION digitaljournalist.org...
www.studyof911.com...




Bill died in the collapse of the North tower, the pictures out of only his digital camera were recovered, the photorolls of his 2 other analog cameras were burst open and were exposed to light, and these are his digital pictures :
Bill Biggart's Final Exposures
Could it be that the above, one of his last pictures, is shown mirrored? And thus the original should be shown and seen as follows :

MIRRORED PICTURE POSITION www.studyof911.com...



The strongest indication that this could be the real original picture is the wind. It came from the North all day of 9/11.
The above mirrored picture shows northwinds blowing smoke to the right (south) on top of the tower, and the white smoke on the left is also blowing to the south.
Thus, if this is right, you see perhaps the WFC 3 at the left, which has step-backs in its facade, and the very first stage of the North Tower collapse to the right.
And some lantern ornament in front of the Winter Garden in the top right?

Either Bill Biggart stood in that case behind the Winter Garden, with the WFC 3 at his left hand, which you see then to the left.
Or, in front of the Winter Garden, perhaps even on the North Bridge overpass, which connected the Winter Garden with the WTC 6 plaza, but in that case you should not see the WTC 3 in his picture, it was then behind him.

WHAT is that billowing smoke doing in that case then, coming out obviously from WTC 7's south face ?
It should not be on fire at this particular moment.

Here is the Collapse Major Debris Spread diagram, superimposed over a map of the WTC area :



Figure 1-7 from the FEMA Report, with a caption reading, "Schematic depiction of areas of collapse debris impact, based on aerial photographs and documented damage. Striped areas indicate predominant locations of exterior steel columns. Inner circles indicate approximate radius of exterior steel columns and other heavy debris. Outer circles indicate approximate radius of aluminum cladding and other lighter debris. Heavy Xs show where exterior steel columns were found outside the predominate debris areas."

As you can clearly see, ONLY when Bill would have stood on, under or near that North Bridge, he was in severe danger to be hit by heavy debris.


digitaljournalist.org...

"So we track through to the end, and we see the second to the last frame. He is moving forward, he is walking down West street, and he is moving towards the pedestrian overpass connecting the World Trade Center and the World Financial Center. Bill is getting closer and closer, and you see more firemen and fire trucks and the second to the last frame you see policemen, and fire trucks under the overpass.

"And then you see the last frame that nobody else will ever have. You see the honeycomb pieces of the first building... and we see half of the hotel that was destroyed as well. After the second building fell, the hotel, the Marriott I think, was gone. You see it cut in half from what fell from the first building and it is time stamped 10:28 and 24 seconds. Basically that time stamp is the end, because at 10:30 is when the second building came down.

"Bill was killed when the second building came down, and he was crushed under all the debris. I don't know if he jumped back under the underpass, or whether the direct debris killed him. We know in his last picture he was working to the very end, and that's telling of the commitment he had to his work."

-- ""that time stamp is the end"" --
I do not think Bill stood on that overpass or even near it, when he took his photo nr 1765, which I think is in fact his real last one!
Not the above small one, as could be concluded from the above exerpt of the Intro page of that website.

And no sane person would run towards that bridge when he saw the North Tower coming down on him.
The position on the corner is the most logical and physically possible one (if the first photo is not mirrored), and he would for sure have run further away from the starting collapse, direction Hudson River.

Where did they find his body? Was it perhaps moved and positioned there?
If it was found on, under or very near that pedestrian bridge, then how on earth did he manage to take photo 1765.

Originally posted by LaBTop
That huge crater in WTC 6 could have been caused by the hat truss of WTC 1. That was a damn heavy construction, made from very strong I beams, U beams and H beams, all welded and clamped together to a giant multiple tons construction to hold the outside walls together in connection with the inner core top collumns.
We see that all debris is square of nature and that hat truss was a square object too.
But how come then, that all the 8 visible WTC 6 craterholes are circular of nature?

Another question is why we aren't seeing a hat truss in the crater of the building, because that crater has been photographed aerially and from inside.





There are perimeter columns, but what buildings didn't those hit?

""So what caused the smoke"".

I suppose it was a lot of steam (white smoke), formed by still functional sprinklers on several floors or parts of floors. I do not really believe anymore in an enormous gash in the center south face, since we now have this firefighter telling he traversed one of the lower floors, floor 7 imop, and didn't notice any damage to the facade, he only reported on the southwest corner damage.
Btw, diesel from an eventual NIST-proposed high pressure line leak, burning, would produce very obvious dark brown and black smoke in copious amounts.
I did not see those in the Prof. Jones photo taken around 11:30 am from 1 Liberty Plaza corner.

And we know that the NYFD recovered water pressure in the area around WTC 7 back again, around noon already on 9/11 (NIST report).

I really hope you can agree with me, that in such an overengineered high rise, with a build in 23rd OEM floor extra fortified to withstand a lot of catastrophic events, there were pressure valves build in into the sprinkler system tubing and piping. If not, what use would these sprinklers have at all? NIST describes them, btw.

And we do agree I hope, that only eventual south face damage has occured.
So, 95 % of WTC 7th sprinkler system was for sure fully operational, when the water pressure came back on, helped also by the huge pressure pumps of the 2 firefighter ships docked on the Hudson board, who very early assisted with firefighting needs.
They were coupled onto the existing piping in that part of Manhattan, which lost water pressure.

But, how come we see two thick streams of water spread on WTC 6 from a NYFD pumper truck?
Why NYFD chiefs did NOT choose to concentrate on WTC 7?
Btw, that building was still in nearly pristene shape so to see, compared to the burning mess WTC 6 already was.

You can see that happening in the above photo with the sideways parked ambulance on Vesey Street.

Btw, I think I made a mistake to call that ""late afternoon"" under that photo.
Noon in that photo would show shadows falling in the same direction as West Street, which runs under a 60° degree angle with Vesey Street, and if you look at the WTC area map posted above, you can see that the shadows from WFC 3 and 4 fall nearly under 80° to the walls of these buildings (see the orange double midstreet lines), that means the photo will have been shot around 11:30 to 11:45 am.
(Sun goes from East to West, North direction is shown in map, West Street is running nearly exactly North).
So, I apologize for the initial wrong "late afternoon"" timestamp by me.

However, that earlier timestamp means that even at a much earlier time, water pressure was recovered in the main piping.
No sane NYFD chief would spent precious water from ONLY the tank of a pumper on that obviously totally wrecked WTC 6, when he could put fires (?) out in the much better looking and recoverable WTC 7.
That means the pumper got it's water from a functioning water mains.

I however also saw two streams of smoke attached to heavier debris spouting out of the north face of the collapsing North Tower in certain videos, which seem to impact the south face of WTC 7.
So, these must have caused some sort of damage, if they really reached that facade.
However, I think that was the small roof parapet damage you showed so conveniently above, and the southwest corner gash.
This also compares to the max extention of the heavy debris fields shown in orange, in the map above.
But something heavy must have caused that south corner damage.
So, untill NIST or anybody else comes up with a clear photo of south face center damage, the verdict is : inconclusive.

I still find it strange that there are photos of the north facade, in the afternoon, with a few burning floors. The north wind would have pushed these fires away from that facade, if they originated originally from an impact damage at the south face.
There was no other cause of damage, except on the south face only.

So why would fires run against wind direction? Especially if you see NO damaged windows nearly all day on the north face ! Any flames at the south face will have been sucked out to the south by the existing strong wind vortex behind that south face.

Anyone living in a city with many high rises, will know the effect of strong winds on street level, let alone higher up in the canyons formed by all these closeby building faces.

Does everybody see what I see?

In that same "ambulance" photo, a whole nest of FULLY PUMPED UP firehoses run along Vesey Street to the burning WTC 1, 6 and 7 area !!!!
LOTS of WATER going that way.

WHY THE HELL does FEMA, 9/11 Commision and NIST all wants us to believe that because of lost waterpressure, and not enough material, fire fighting was stopped at WTC 7 ? ? ?

And don't come up with that crazy remark of Silverstein about "lost lifes".
He is lieing through his egoistic greedy teeth. Insider.

Or those "the building is squeeking" remarks from that one NIST interview.
This prof Jones photo shows clearly that the south face of WTC 7 at 11:30 was not burning at all, or nearly not !!!!

There are an awfull lot of firefighters standing there, and also in the other above photo with the photoshopped OUT firehoses (now I know why you did that, mr Spak, "honest" debunker, you didn't want to show those hoses, and all that other NYFD material laying around, unused to fight fire in WTC 7, but used on an already clearly lost building, WTC 6.)

There are perimeter columns, but what buildings didn't those hit?

If I would have had a chance to investigate those perimeter beams inside that crater, I would have been most interested from how high up they came. If fromm the top part of the North Tower, than how could these same collumns be found embedded in the Verizon, the WFC 2 and 3, the Winter Garden etc.
In other words, far too far away to have been propelled by normal gravitational collapses.

We know how much one of these perimeter pieces weighted (3 beams coupled together with crossbeams, you see them laying all over the place, nearly all broken the same way.)

If such a part is popped out by gravitational collapsing of a certain amount of floors onto the rest of the building, there is a minimum and maximum distance these upper parts will be propelled out. The parts just under the first collapse zone will be -possibly- snapped outwards. But there is a boundary to how far they can fall.

See the 4 orange light and heavy debris fields shown on above map.

The first scientists who saw the first ground and aerial photo's and visited Ground Zero themselfs, have drawn that map.

There are an AWFULL lot of the exact same perimeter wall pieces propelled FAR FURTHER than physically is possible for a "normal" gravitational collapse of those 2 specific buildings.

Even a non scientifically schooled eye will notice this instinctively, when shown the highresolution aerial photos.
A parabolic perimeter-part descent path has only two vectors, one vertical (gravity), and one horizontally (initial launching speed).
Launching can be "popping out", "snapping" or EXPLODING.
Guess which of the 3 possible causes will end horizontally furthests from the original position in the building...

(But more than 50 % of the US population can not do else as close their eyes, since deep inside they AGREE with what resulted from what happened on 9/11.
It saved their country from factual bankruptcy, and gave them that old superiority feeling back. And many of that 50+% are factual fascists, in deeds or thoughts they agree with most of the underlaying drive of their current Administration.
They silently or loudly agree to kill a gruesome amount of innocent Muslims, because a very few of them have been "proven" to hate their country.

Now, that's sickening... )


EDIT :
see also these posts on the same subject :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and all its above posts by other members


[edit on 6/11/06 by LaBTop]

A lot of smoke was also coming from WTC5, which was behind WTC7 and beside WTC6, obscured by smoke/steam in most or all of the images here so far.

WTC5 fires:








I wonder where all that smoke went? Up and around/behind WTC7, maybe? Especially considering that's where the building itself was!

For what it's worth, WTC4 was on fire too, also worse than WTC6 imo, but farther away from WTC7, behind WTC5 and beside WTC2's footprint:





It's interesting to note that, while less engineered than WTC7 or either of the Towers, WTC4 and 5 withstood their fires. Smaller columns, no doubt smaller FoS ratings (meaning less columns would have to fail in proportion; they could support less weight proportionately to their sizes), and they were bombarded with falling debris.

And more photos of WTC6's fires being fought with WTC7 in the background can be found here.

Originally posted by LaBTop
Does everybody see what I see?

In that same "ambulance" photo, a whole nest of FULLY PUMPED UP firehoses run along Vesey Street to the burning WTC 1, 6 and 7 area !!!!
LOTS of WATER going that way.

probably from the Harvey

WHY THE HELL does FEMA, 9/11 Commision and NIST all wants us to believe that because of lost waterpressure, and not enough material, fire fighting was stopped at WTC 7 ? ? ?

I'm not a fireman, so I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that you need water to the standpipes and either working fire pumps or a pumper to push the water up the pipes. I think that you have to go into and fight a high rise fire from inside the building. Otherwise all you are doing is trying to contain it and keep it from spreading.



[edit on 6-11-2006 by HowardRoark]

It would be neat if a spokesperson from one of the private agencies that were consulted posted here.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

WHY THE HELL does FEMA, 9/11 Commision and NIST all wants us to believe that because of lost waterpressure, and not enough material, fire fighting was stopped at WTC 7 ? ? ?

I'm not a fireman, so I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that you need water to the standpipes and either working fire pumps or a pumper to push the water up the pipes. I think that you have to go into and fight a high rise fire from inside the building. Otherwise all you are doing is trying to contain it and keep it from spreading.

Howard is right about this. The water pressure is going to fall dramaticly with all those pumpers sucking water from the system for all the fires. If they did not dedicate at least one engine/pumper (it should have more than one, thats a long ways to push water) then the sprinkler system will not be very effective. You also need an attack team on the inside, with the standpipe having its pressure boosted from an engine on the outside.

We do agree every once and a while Howard, I just never give you credit!

Howard.

That again is enough proof to me that you are a neutral concerned citizen, and not a "shill", like so many times accused of.

Source : www.fireboat.org...

September 11, 2001
Harvey, John D. McKean and Firefighter provided water for 80 hrs (until hydrants were restored) to extinguish the World Trade Center fires.

HowardRoark : probably from the Harvey

: LaBTop : WHY THE HELL does FEMA, 9/11 Commision and NIST all wants us to believe that because of lost waterpressure, and not enough material, fire fighting was stopped at WTC 7 ? ? ?

I'm not a fireman, so I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that you need water to the standpipes and either working fire pumps or a pumper to push the water up the pipes. I think that you have to go into and fight a high rise fire from inside the building. Otherwise all you are doing is trying to contain it and keep it from spreading.

Source : www.fireboat.org...
page 27 from 36.

Case Study #3
New York City - World Trade Center Collapse
September 11, 2001
Five Fireboats Conduct Rescue, Transport and Suppression
Following the collapse of the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, the majority of the infrastructure surrounding the twin towers was destroyed, including the water distribution system. Fires were still raging in the nearby hi-rise structures. Without a viable water source, firefighters and other rescue personnel were unable to gain entry to the adjacent structures involved with fire to conduct search and rescue operations, or to support the rescue and recovery efforts at the collapse site.
Four fireboats from the FDNY Marine Division responded to the World Trade Center. The fireboat, John McKean from Marine Company 1, arrived on the scene before the first tower collapsed. The McKean was being used to evacuate civilians who had been trapped in Battery Park south of the towers when the collapse occurred. The ensuing dust and smoke cloud following the collapse resulted in near zero visibility. The people became disoriented and frightened and began running blindly toward the Hudson River. As they reached the bulkhead many jumped onto the deck of the McKean that subsequently transported the evacuees across the river to New Jersey. The McKean returned to Battery Park and initiated pumping operations. The McKean was later joined by the fireboats Firefighter, and Smoke II. At the time of the initial attack, the fireboat, Kevin C. Kane, was out of service undergoing repairs. The crew of the Kane quickly placed their boat back in service, and responded to the scene, and joined the other fireboats in fire suppression and rescue operations. The Kane was used to evacuate people from lower Manhattan to safety.
The retired fireboat, John J. Harvey, also saw action. When the new commercial owners of the John J. Harvey heard of the attacks they decided to respond to scene to offer assistance. Over the course of the next three days, three fireboats including the John J. Harvey supplied nearly 60,000 gallons of water per minute to land-based fire apparatus, through water manifolds, and supply lines that supplied building standpipe systems. After three days of pumping, the John J. Harvey was released, while the remaining fireboats continued to pump for two additional days.

That 60,000 gallons of water per minute just from those 3 pumper boats speaks for itself.

Howard, isn't it quite strange that we see in above pictures from bsbray11, lots of firefighters fighting fires at clearly already lost wrecked buildings WTC 4, 5 and 6, fires which are clearly RAGING in all left over floors, but that some Commissioner ordered ONLY to stop all the firefighting efforts for WTC 7, where at that moment no fires AT ALL were to be seen.

HowardRoark : I think that you have to go into and fight a high rise fire from inside the building. Otherwise all you are doing is trying to contain it and keep it from spreading

Your quote is in my opinion sufficiently answered by this exerpt :

to land-based fire apparatus, through water manifolds, and supply lines that supplied building standpipe systems .

And at least one NYFD pumper truck can be seen spreading useless broad streams of water to the wrong object, WTC 6.
If they would have turned 180 °, they could have easily put out the small smoldering fires in the south corner gash of WTC 7.
The ONLY conclusively proven substantial damage to the south face !
I even see a ladder truck, so they could have pumped water from the top of that ladder to the top of the gash.

The Commissioner and the fire chiefs at the scene must have known very well that no people were inside WTC 4, 5 and 6 anymore, they were reported empty before any Tower collapse already ! (See NIST report 1-8)
So that could not have been the reason to keep concentrating on these lost buildings.

Please let any US citizen file a FOIA request for making public, all the photo's taken by the NYPD heli which shot that famous WTC 7 south corner gash from above, and all the other photos from heli's crowding around until WTC 7 collapsed.

You can use this pic to show how its moving towards WTC 7. Look at the shadow as the debris going avalanche towards the building.

Originally posted by LaBTop

And at least one NYFD pumper truck can be seen spreading useless broad streams of water to the wrong object, WTC 6.
If they would have turned 180 °, they could have easily put out the small smoldering fires in the south corner gash of WTC 7.
The ONLY conclusively proven substantial damage to the south face !
I even see a ladder truck, so they could have pumped water from the top of that ladder to the top of the gash.

I dont see any useless wide angle streams in any of those pictures. Unless you are on that scene and know why they are using a wide stream as apposed to anarrow stream, then you cannot make that judgement. We use different streams for different reasons. Those men attacking wtc6 were under orders to spray that building, for whatever reason and I would assume it was a good reason.

That image also appears to show WFC2 (the Merrill Lynch Building) getting totally bombarded by WTC1 debris, when it did not:





It's not reliable.

Those are vast distances in that image, though they appear small to us in the image itself.


We know there was damage to WTC7's SW corner, and to the very roof of the building. How either of these things, or really ANY asymmetrical damage can result in a symmetrical collapse in which massive steel columns dropped without experiencing any resistance from the thousands of tons of material below them is not established. This is why WTC7 looked like a classical convention demolition: it fell straight down at free-fall velocity into a small stack in its own footprint.

That NYFD pumper truck, clearly to be seen pumping, opposite of the south corner of WTC 7, has standard, 2 heavy pumps on wheels onboard, to connect water mains pressure or line pressure to the standpipe system in these high rises.
It is all described in NIST WTC 1-8, the report about all the firefighting efforts on 9/11, and with all the communication reports between firefighter, security personnel and Port Authority personnel and NYPD personnel.
They reported to be unable to get the pressure up in these pipes.

For example in WTC 1 and 2, they connected the same pumps to the standpipes, but they could not bring the system to pressure. This was BEFORE the first collapse already.
Highly suspicious, if you know how these standpipes were engineered, to exactly dismiss these kind of failures.
It strongly susgest sabotage of these standpipes. At least they should have functioned up till the lowest impact floors.
The pressure drop safety valves would have kept the pipes beneath the points of any damage by plane debris in those pipes, water tight !

It has been suggested that another failure in the basements could have stopped the pumpers to get pressure on these stand pipes.
That is just as suspicious, why would there be damage in the BASEMENTS of BOTH towers before collapse, from an impact at the 77th and 94th floors respectively. !

Do you start to believe the janitors story now, about huge explosions just BEFORE planes impacted, in the lowest basement floors????
The same janitor, and plentyfull of his surviving colleagues also reported flooding of BOTH basement lower floors directly before or at plane impacts.
That means that the huge main water pipes coming through the fat concrete tub construction around the whole WTC complex under street level, were fractured or blown to pieces.
That can not be caused by plane impacts so high up.

The janitor pulled 2 of his friends out of a FLOODED elevator shaft in the basement.
One black guy had his face burned away and the skin on his hands and arms, he is still alive and subscribes to the janitors story. And many more of the basement workers at present when the planes impacted also do now.