I feel so sad

We as the American public have been lied to. The world has been lied to.

Every news story is more death, more torture, more problems in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now the United States and other forces are thinking of pulling out due to public pressure? I really want the American army pulled out so my step brother can leave and no other officers will get killed (for what?), but I don't know what would happen to the country itself.

Everything coming out of Washington is BS, and I don't think anything will heal it for a while. Not a new president, not a new party in control of Congress and Senate, not the Supreme Court Judges.

I feel hopeless

Rep dont despair, this current malaise will pass, the American people just need to acert themselves at home and work towards geting rid of Bush and Co. Its just a human sickness that we have to put up with every so often but eventually we will rise above the petty squables and materialism that we think is so important. Irrespective of what people think of Americans, at a basic level all people get on with each other more so than what people actually believe. Yes there is ignorance and intolerance but these are easily overcome if people put their minds to it. And although you may feel down at least your not an Iraqi living in Iraq, at least you are safe.

Don't feel hopeless.

I love my country, and I may be slammed for saying this, but patriotism is becoming a thing of the past. Everyone is becoming their own isolated country, with temporary enemies and allies. Thank politics for that.

The best you can do is find your passion and give it all you've got.

Uh, RR: So the US should abandon ship so you can sleep better knowing your step brother is cozy again. What does HE say about it? Didn't he commit? Isn't he under any obligations? Do you even know if your step brother wants to bail on his men, on his country? Let's get HIM on the line and ask him shall we?

In the meantime, go get some freedom fries and a cold Pepsi and chill in front of your free tv in comfort while the rest of those heroes keep you safe and warm, kapish?

Outrageo, I don't believe fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan now is fighting for America's freedom (nor did I ever think it was), not when the borders are open and port security is anything but efficient, Osama is still on the loose. Yet our soldiers are fighting in a foreign land being used as target practice.

And no my step brother doesn't say anything like what I am saying. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to want him home and not see him on CNN as a casualty to some car bomb for an undisclosed Bum F Egypt reason.

Yea, the reality of the world is difficult to accept. Some advice: Turn off the TV and focus on your own life and your own problems, do things you like to do, and realize that as long as you are fine you have nothing to worry about. We like to think that we, being americans who can do anything, can somehow solve the problems of the world, help people, etc. But really it's no good and will cause you more frustration to hear about things that are beyond your control. No, I'm not saying there aren't people who can help a lot of other people, but the average person does not have the means to realistically, except maybe within their own small community. Until you do have the means just remember this that Ghandi said "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's yourself." Just my opinion...

Whatever.

When Osama's virgin-seeking brothers are crawling house-to-house through your street. and your mom's, and your step brother's - I wonder if you'll continue to sing the same tune...

Maybe when they finally burst through your bedroom door you might then whimper "uncle", eh? But of course you and yours would have eliminated all those horrible, mean American defenders by then... c'est la vie...

Oh please, if we admit Iraq was a bad idea that's not working, Al Quaeda is somehow going to invade the US? What a crock.

Iraq is the best thing that ever happened to Al Quaeda and to Islamist extremism in general. They were on the run and disintegrating until we gave them the best recruiting tool they could hope for.

[edit on 10/23/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by Shoktek
Yea, the reality of the world is difficult to accept. Some advice: Turn off the TV and focus on your own life and your own problems, do things you like to do, and realize that as long as you are fine you have nothing to worry about. We like to think that we, being americans who can do anything, can somehow solve the problems of the world, help people, etc. But really it's no good and will cause you more frustration to hear about things that are beyond your control. No, I'm not saying there aren't people who can help a lot of other people, but the average person does not have the means to realistically, except maybe within their own small community. Until you do have the means just remember this that Ghandi said "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's yourself." Just my opinion...

Yes, I understand your point, Shoktek, but I also disagree. I'm beginning to think that we have no idea how dangerous this situation really is. I often hear the fear-mongers out there warn of a terrorist nuclear bomb going off inside the United States, but what really worries me is the more realistic possibility of one going off in Baghdad. If that were to happen, our military would be seriously devastated, and in addition to the horrific loss of life, it would leave the door open for countries like North Korea, Iran, and Syria to pretty much do whatever they want. We need to get our soldiers out of that place.


[edit on 23-10-2006 by Flatwoods]

Yea, we do need to. But the fact is, there's nothing we can do about it...

Get a grip Outrageo, talk about paranoia, if any country was invaded then you have a right to fight back, America was not invaded, it was lied to by your goverment. And how about being sympathetic to a fellow American who is feeling down, if you cannot say anything positive then dont say anything.

Retinoid, thanks for posting that. You provide a great reason for why all of us need to forget about the artificial lines separating Reublicans and Democrats. It doesn't matter what side one is on, this country right now is a mess and we all need to think as one if we're going to ever fix this mess. I don't blame you one bit for feeling hopless, I've been feeling that way, too, lately. I hope your bro-in-law comes home safe and sound and SOON. My heart goes out to you. And I agree we need to get out of Iraq as soon as we can. It's already in civil war, we've done enough damage there and they don't want us there any more. We finally admitted we had to withdraw from Vietnam, but after 50,000 American boys were killed. Surely we don't need to lose that many again in order to come to our collective senses? There is nothing more that we can do in Iraq to help them. They have no WMD's, they aren't connected to Al Quaida, and even our own President Bush has said that. So why the hell are we still there?

P.S. - Outrageo, did you forget to take your Compassion Pill this morning?

Originally posted by forestlady
There is nothing more that we can do in Iraq to help them. They have no WMD's, they aren't connected to Al Quaida, and even our own President Bush has said that. So why the hell are we still there?

WMDs and potential terrorist connections were two of the reasons we went to Iraq to remove the Hussein government. There were other reasons as well.

To establish a stable Iraq friendly to the US

To establish a greater US military presence in the region to reduce the risk that regional conflicts could disrupt the flow of oil. No matter how much people don't like it, the fact is the world runs on oil, and it will be the cause of many more conflicts before it's gone.

The establishment of a stable, US friendly Iraq is still in question. IMO we stay, because if we leave, Iraq essentially becomes a sattelite of Iran. The insurgency is basically being run by Iran. Many many errors have been made by the US in Iraq, but in Colin Powells words "We broke, we have to fix it".

Leaving now means many Suni Iraqis will live under the same political and religious persecution that the Kurds and Shia did under Saddam. Only this time the persecutors will be Persian Shia Muslims from Iran. By the way the Iranian (Persian) shia dont like the Iraqi (Arab) Shia all that much either, Right now their operating under the old axiom "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

It is a mess, but leaving is not the right thing to do IMO.


[edit on 10/24/2006 by darkbluesky]

quote]Originally posted by Outrageo
Uh, RR: So the US should abandon ship so you can sleep better knowing your step brother is cozy again. What does HE say about it? Didn't he commit? Isn't he under any obligations? Do you even know if your step brother wants to bail on his men, on his country? Let's get HIM on the line and ask him shall we?

In the meantime, go get some freedom fries and a cold Pepsi and chill in front of your free tv in comfort while the rest of those heroes keep you safe and warm, kapish?

Take a moment RR and relish ignorance.

I supported going to Iraq under the circumstances we where actually doing something good for the region and our allies, that is to rid the country of WMDs that we ourselves placed there to begin with. Infact we knew they did not have WMDs and the reason we are there seems lost in a world of confusing allibys and confusing miscomunications.

Let me ask you this, Outrageo, il call you out because you called RR out. How did Iraq pose a threat to the physical wellbeing of the United States of America, the worlds most powerful military that can respond any where in the world within days with a force strong enough to conquer entire civilizations within days?? TELL ME! I want to know, i want to know where we fell apart, I want to know why we are so weak that a third world country POSED A THREAT TO US! and damnit I want to know that regardless of us destroying a country, why we are obligated to stay there when they don't want us there to begin with? Lets swallow our pride and admit we F'd up big time, lets be a man about it and admit our faults, give them economic aid and hope they can pull together or split apart. Should our brave men and women stay and die daily for the sake that our president can keep his pride and live in a fantasy realm where he is the savior of a people that despise him? .. your line of thought is confusing. And do explain why NATIONAL GUARD/RESERVES need to be over there? .. since when is that a international invading force? Since when did we send weekend warriors to OCCUPY COUNTRIES??.... remember Katrina.. rember the shortage of manpower and the slow response? .. would that had happen if our national guard units where were they where supposed to be??? ... I doubt it.

We can wage wars for what ever reason we want, there is no standard of international law and there is no one to enforce it, how ever the government does answer to the PEOPLE. Whether or not the Republicans put him in power, I voted for him, that does NOT mean we are SUBJECT to HIS desicions. No friend that is NOT democracy. The people have found out it was a lie the government needs to back out, admit defeat as horrible as it is, we CANNOT NATION BUILD. Armies destroy, they are symbols of power, destruction, force, death, imperialistic in nature. Armies go in and dismantle entire regions, they can be used to defend an ally or take over a nation for economic gain. they do NOT build nations, over see new government, a government expected to represent the people anyways. And it is especially hard to do in a region where the culture and religion is different then your own. But you wouldn't care about that? .. You could give a damn about the views of those in which your government took over, the fact we destroyed a country. We did not just assassinate a leader, we bombed, we wrecked havoc and we killed. Thousands. Now we sit on street corners, now we guard outpost, now we escort politians, now we attempt to interviene in a civil war sparked by us dismantaling the power base.

Here is my opinion on attempting to give a foriegn people supressed by a leader powers and rights.

If a people of any given nation are to weak to rise up them selves and take power through use of politics or force form a minority or a majority, when given the power freely with no personal sruggles and victory to relish in.. they will not have earned the right to govern themselves and will ultimatly succumb to the very powers that where dismantled for them.

In other words, you cannot watch a kid trying to ride a bike for the first time, give him a ride on your handle bars and then expect that the kid will then all of a sudden know how to keep his ballance and be able to ride solo.

And for a final thought, the fact that you are honestly affraid an arab will come to our country, into your neighbor hood and take away your way of life is weak, it is cowardly, it shows no respect for your nations ability to defend its self and pure ignorance in not understanding why they fight us to begin with.

Now, for RR. What we are seeing in America is a transitional phase, we are experiencing an identity crisis. The world was good during the Cold War, we knew no one would honestly launch a nuke because it was mutual destruction. We honestly knew no one would attack us, and we knew we would never attack Russia, all through mutual destruction. Now we are a super power, not a nation on earth or a nations combined together would ever compete with our industrial power to produce warfare. That is an accomplishment, and so with our form of government and policies set in place in a different era we are expanding, racing like a train to a dead end. We will grow and we will grow and the economy will expand through what ever means necesary until we literally implode on our selves. Revolution, civil wars, tyranies and resistance movements. WE are not immune. We will perish like our ancestors perished, our culture will expand and reach everyone until the world is sick of us, until they get so fed up of hearing about us no one wants to be our friends anymore. We see it now, we see it everyday, we saw a third world nation call our president on our soil a devil. He insulted America, he desicrated the sactity of power in which we wrap ourselves in. It doesnt seem that big of a deal but it shows something.....

They no longer fear us.

They didn't like us to begin with, we where EXACTLY like the USSR, we dominated, we destroyed cultures and implimented our own way of life which we declare holy and pure and the only way. We talk to our European friends like children, we treat them like school boys, they have THOUSANDS of years on us, we are the child and the world does not like a snot nosed brat with a big club bosing people around!

They no longer fear us.

They no longer respect us.

WE no longer respect our selves.

Our government shamed the face of this government many times in the past century, with the Vietnam war, with the proxy wars, with us supporting various international factions and then turning on the.. and then the war in Iraq. It showed our incompitance, it showed our rage, it showed our ignorance, it showed to the world we are on edge, we will strike any one any where WITH NO REGARD TO ALLIES. We boycotted the French for gods sake.. disgusting display of childish behavior.

Are the Democrats right? .. no.. god no.. they feed off our failures in an effort to change the government into their liking.

As RR rightfully put it, it does not matter who we actually place in power, we are through our golden age and it is down hill from here. Can we do anything? .. sure, call up another constitutional convention and begin the process again, our current system is to embeded, it has its own traditions, they have a base of power, the current system is here until the end.

Should you be sad? .. yeah, you should because the generations before you acted just like everyone else in history, arrogant and selfish.. we did nothing new, we simply called our selves a new name with a mask and we acted exactly like we where expected to.

Outrageo I'm pretty sure us being in iraq isn't stoping osoma from planning another attack especially sence he had no relationship with suddam. The plan should have been get the guy who attacked us not start a civil war in a country who had nothing to do with it. I feel you RetinoidReceptor when 9/11 happened I thought the people responsible will pay dearly but to this day osoma lives and it seems he is forgotten why are we not demanding his capture? Everything that comes out of washington is BS.

No offense was meant. It's just that I've lived through war as a child and my family was witness to terrible things.

I feel many in the US take their freedoms for granted. Few of them would be able to defend themselves, their families, or their property if need be. The need, so far, is not there and has not been there for centuries. IMO, part of the reason for this is because we have some citizens ready/willing/able to defend the rest of their countrymen - even in spite of the vindictive, toxic criticism, ridicule, and shame they are subjected to. And I don't think it's fair to declare e.g., "I support the troops, but not the war". They are the war. It is war. Reasons we are there now, even if we were lied to (though the degree to which that occurred is subject to, apparently, heated debate) to get us there, the ones doing the fighting are doing so, in part, to prevent us having to do so here. I realize many of you consider that 'hogwash'. There are plenty of other thread currently on this forum that address extensively the likelihood, even the agenda, of militant radical isalmic extremists to 'carry their jihad fight' to US soil. I hope that doesn't happen. If it ever does - well, I guess it already has: anybody knew a soul from 9/11?

The US current president is not the best, many democrat & republican presidents before and in the future will also be considered ineffective/insufficient/dishonest, etc depending on which side of the fence you care to sling mud from. Healthy debate is one thing. Abject condemnation and couch-potato venom while others die for you, well, as opposed to R&R (how appropriate) et al - that is what makes me sad.

Sorry, my friends - I'll leave you to this topic now... it's a worthwhile discussion - it's just that I'm here mostly to seek the ATS truth. got a bit distracted, I guess...

Take care....

Rockpuck, that was beautifully said, it brought tears to my eyes; you are 100% correct IMO.

Outrageo: Can you not see that those of us here who disagree with you are trying to hold on to our rights and freedoms? Sorry, but the only "venom" spewed (your words), IMO, was from you.

Outrageo do not get the impression that we here believe our opinions are above yours in anyway, it wouldn't matter if it was completely wrong or factual truth, your opinion is your own and no ones own opinion is better then that.

The hostility you witness is more likely simple heated conversation about a sensitive topic.

Whatever.
When Osama's virgin-seeking brothers are crawling house-to-house through your street. and your mom's, and your step brother's - I wonder if you'll continue to sing the same tune...

Statements like that I would say do not further an educated conversation which, more or less, is why we come to ATS/PTS, to discuss with valid points that could be backed up and to share your own feelings. Comments like above can be taken as incredibly short sighted, biased, narrow minded, and sadly in some context racist.

There are great men and women "defending" us in an offensive war (that is, the Iraq war is a seperate war then the War on Terror because we seek seperate goals therefore dividing the battle fields into two wars fought at the same time) And I would love to be able to say no one here blames the men and women fighting personally, but I feel there actually is, those of us on ATS know who they are... But defending the goals of a single man and his personal advisors, civil and military, do not represent what is good nor what is just.

There lies the point to the conversation at hand, we went to war, we shouldn't have. They don't want us there yet we stay. Our military personel stand on street corners practically begging for a sniper to come get them, just waiting for that car bomb to roll by, is that how we should treat our men and women in uniform... honestly? They are not contractors and they are not police, they are not business men and they are not there to act as a neighborhood watch. They are warriors, they specialize in warfare, they are trained to kill and to avoid being killed... this idea of nation building has cost us billions. Think, where could that money have gone.. maybe to finding Osama.. maybe to actually fighting terrorism by funding the various governments around the world to fight them... instead we try and destroy then re-build in the hopes that it will come out gleaming like a gem and be a perfect example of democracy... the ignorance in that logic is insane..

You can support the men fighting .. doing their jobs and not support the ideology backing an invasion.. I don't blame the men shooting, I blame the man who made them go there to shoot. Is that wrong?

[edit on 10/24/2006 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Rep dont despair, this current malaise will pass, the American people just need to acert themselves at home and work towards geting rid of Bush and Co.

Nothing is going to change if a new president is elected.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Rep dont despair, this current malaise will pass, the American people just need to acert themselves at home and work towards geting rid of Bush and Co.

Nothing is going to change if a new president is elected.

While the Republicans messed up this war, if I had to go back and again choose between Bush and Kerry... I would still pick Bush because Kerry I feel would have been even worse. Same with these elections, I will not vote for either Dems or Reps but the outcome will be the same no matter what, like my post above, it is much deeper then that.