Canada gets own "3 Strikes" program.

Well, it looks like Harper is once again going to implement an American program here in Canada. Violent and sex criminals will have to prove why they shouldn't be incarcerated indefinately, as opposed to the crown having the onus to prove that they should be locked up, after 3 offences.

The federal government plans to make it easier to designate violent criminals as dangerous offenders so they can be kept locked up longer.

Legislation to be introduced next week was touted yesterday by Prime Minister Stephen Harper at the Toronto Police Association's headquarters. It drew immediate praise from victims' advocates but criticism from criminal lawyers.

The legislation would force those convicted of a third sexual or violent offence to show why they don't deserve to be designated as dangerous offenders.

Currently, it is up to the Crown to prove that an offender should be deemed dangerous, a legal label that carries with it an indefinite sentence.

Source

So, what's my problem with this? Personally I'm all for locking these offenders up BUT why 3 offences? Why not 2? Or 4, that seems more Canadian to me. Just another Harper move that he took from the playbook below the border. I wonder when Canada's version of the Patriot Act will be implemented?

Same, same, same here I'. A good idea for sure. But how's it workin' out in the states? Prisons do seem to be a growth industry. Some say it's working well, other's not. Now if society/prisons could only help to rehab folks instead of being "centres for higher-learning" for the "skills-illegal"... I must say I do like some of Harper's "stuff" - other things "not so much." I'll give him credit for doing "something" tho'. About time.

Victor K.

41'

[edit on 13-10-2006 by V Kaminski]

Seems like were happy with the decision to make a move, but we would of appreciated alittle creativity.

The legislation itself is great, a good move. But the perception it gives off is negative. I too would of rathered some legislation that was not a replicate of our southern counterpart.

Originally posted by intrepid
I wonder when Canada's version of the Patriot Act will be implemented?

The day before I emigrate.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by chissler]

We do have something close to the US Patriot Act, actually two bits of legislation called Bill C-36 and C-42. There are aspects of this legislation that may well have even more grave implications than that of the reaction of some to the US Patriot Act. Ours doesn't have a jazzy name that's all.

Here's a CBC Link to a bit of an overview in a news piece: www.cbc.ca...

Here's Bill C-36: www2.parl.gc.ca... Dust off your lawyer-ese.

Here's Bill C-42: www2.parl.gc.ca...

Some aspects of both Bills make good sense and others are just lame. Yeah, I would expect Harpo's markspersons to repackage all "new" legislation in US flavoured republic-type stuff. I am glad he is a little more law and order... I like his anti-street racing policy, and increased defense spending. I still don't "like" like him. Likely never will... not Canadian enough for me at this point.

Victor K.

41'

[edit on 13-10-2006 by V Kaminski]

Originally posted by V Kaminski


Some aspects of both Bills make good sense and others are just lame. Yeah, I would expect Harpo's markspersons to repackage all "new" legislation in US flavoured republic-type stuff. I am glad he is a little more law and order... I like his anti-street racing policy, and increased defense spending. I still don't "like" like him. Likely never will... not Canadian enough for me at this point.

Victor K.

41'

[edit on 13-10-2006 by V Kaminski]

BINGO!!! I couldn't have said it better. Sure, I like some of what he's doing, this legislation included BUT it isn't Canadian, it's a copycat.

My biggest problem with this legislation is that it seems to be 'automatic' and then someone has to prove they aren't a dangerous offender. That seems a little back-assward to me. Kind of like guilty until proven innocent.

I think it's a good tool to have, but I would prefer to have it used selectively when needed instead of applied automatically.

How many new prisons are we going to have to build?

Also, I'm getting really tired of getting these stupid postcards from the Conservative Party in the mail telling me that Stephen Harper is 'Tackling Crime to protect our Canadian way of life'. I've heard that phrase a few too many times coming from South of the border in the last 5 years.

Really, I'm surprised.

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. Unoriginal, yes. But our catch-and-release, hug-a-thug justice system clearly ISN'T protecting us. Rashes of home invasions in Markham and all that. Our young offenders laws are a joke.

Duzey, why is the onus on the bad guy a bad thing? I mean, look at the Jonathan killer. He's elligible for parole in seven years. He is CLASSIC dangerous-reoffender if I've ever seen it. The longer they can keep him out of my hood...or anyone else's for that matter... the better.

Whatever happened to a long drop and short stop, yo? I mean these clinically-diagnosed crazies are elligible for parole, not to mention habitual-reoffending rapists and pedophiles. I mean, they're sick in the head. But when your dog gets rabies, you get it put down. You don't let it out of the cage when it's foaming a little less.

DE

I want the bad one's incarcerated, and "repaired". Im OK with something "like" three strikes... I'm not a big fan of guilty by default. There are some possible ulterior motives for such a policy set and a history. Private prisons are here and have been for a while which implimented really well, may be of some help in the problem.

Money and "friends". Please recall the results of our "common sense revolutionary" Mike "The Knife" Harris in Ontario. and his "policy". Did it help? maybe, but not a whole big bunch. Californis IS having to revisit this issue - they ran out of space years ago... Google it. BTW: does Ontario have more or less folks in "stir" since then?

Fast forward to today. This "instruction set" will guarantee more prisons and prisoners - a given. I have no problem with that, the system is already running at or beyond capacity at the federal level. More prisons, sure, private prisons? I'm not in favour of the private part at all. Too many opportunities for malfeasance. Some folks sense the problem coming and are not willing to have our prisons "go South" any more than they already have. Here's just one story at the at the end of this post.

The other issue it does raise is the American practice of prison labour manufacturing... in many cases this manufacturing seems a "good thing".

Sometimes this manufacturing does interfere with existing businesses and has the potential to rdo eal damage to our already rapidly shrinking manufacturing base... one would hope that manufacturing could benefit by by being involved in the rehab/manufacturing process - some do... mostly friends of "the regime of the day".

That's the part that bugs me most - unfair advantage and cheap labour which will cost jobs at the level of the econmoy which produces criminals rather effectively - the marginal working poor. False economy.

One big hassle is that those inculcated in the system, first and second termers and using the prison "social network" to enhanvce their ability to perpetrate and propagate. For this I have no good answer, I do have a "bad' answer tho' - an expensive bad answer - newbies separated and insulated from those who might further influence a continuation of such a life-mis-spent - make the first time in - a real time out - isolation bordering on solitary. Make the experience so sterile that the thought of returning to "hell in a box" is uppermost in the offenders "self-identity" - fear and loathing. Mental leverage is THE "Big Stick" - fear.

There are tons of certifiable crazies... certify them for real and allow those who are truly ill and not "broken by choice" to get the help they need in the rubber-room hotel, we need more of those too. We won't just need more prisons - we will need more "kinds" of prisons suited to the clientele.

This legislation is a step, a small step at least partly in the right direction - but sometimes the forest can't be seen for all the bush. What do I want? Better - I'm Canadian, we should be good at better.

Victor K.

41'

EDIT: Toronto Star link:

Source

[edit on 14-10-2006 by V Kaminski]

[edit on 14-10-2006 by V Kaminski]

Edit: Shortened link.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by V Kaminski
There are tons of certifiable crazies... certify them for real and allow those who are truly ill and not "broken by choice" to get the help they need in the rubber-room hotel, we need more of those too. We won't just need more prisons - we will need more "kinds" of prisons suited to the clientele.

Mental Health Act, brother. If commited by the poh, they can only be detained a maximum of 72 hours before a shrink has to cut them loose or put them in a hospital bed. Becoming an involuntary patient only lasts about a month (I think) or it violates their 'human rights'. After that...

"An involuntary patient whose authorized period of detention has not expired may be continued as an informal or voluntary patient upon completion of the approved form by the attending physician. R.S.O. 1990, c. M.7, s. 20 (7); 2000, c. 9, s. 7 (5)."

Also, most patients capable of consent MUST consent to treatment, and that includes psychopaths. They don't HAVE to be treated if they don't want to. A lot of major cities with homeless folks have a few troubles with the homeless due to the combination of the Health Care Consent Act, and the Mental Health Act. Example:

A former teacher of mine is with Peel. He got a call of an assault on a minor. They roll up, and a homeless guy is trying to drown a twelve-year-old boy. They stop him (busting his shin in the process, they had to use that much force). They throw him in detention, and when they find out who he is, it turns out he's a schizophrenic with a rap sheet a mile long. This is yet another violent incident. What happens in a cycle is as follows: Man is arrested, sent to treatment. They give him drugs, he's as normal as he gets, and they release him at the end of his term with a pat on the back and a shrug. He gets back on the street, doesn't take his meds, or runs out, etc. and goes crazy...gets rearrested.

We're too kind of rubber rooms. It's time to get some rope for Bernardo and his ilk.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx


Whatever happened to a long drop and short stop, yo? I mean these clinically-diagnosed crazies are elligible for parole, not to mention habitual-reoffending rapists and pedophiles. I mean, they're sick in the head. But when your dog gets rabies, you get it put down. You don't let it out of the cage when it's foaming a little less.

DE

NOW YOU'VE GOT IT!!! Original and SOLVES the problem of repeat offenders. Bonus: Money saved for the public.

Bernardo takes 40K$ + of taxpayer monies to continue living. And he's not doing anything except watching basic cable! It's like being rewarded for being a serial killer.

Of course, if folks saw that murders and rapists and all that dangling, they might reconsider the capital crimes. If they don't...well, no reoffence. Rope is reusable, and so is gravity. More money for the roads and the military.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Bernardo takes 40K$ + of taxpayer monies to continue living. And he's not doing anything except watching basic cable! It's like being rewarded for being a serial killer.

WAY +, it takes $300/day to incarcerate someone. That's $110,000/year. I'm all for investing in hemp.

Originally posted by V Kaminski
The other issue it does raise is the American practice of prison labour manufacturing... in many cases this manufacturing seems a "good thing".

Sometimes this manufacturing does interfere with existing businesses and has the potential to rdo eal damage to our already rapidly shrinking manufacturing base... one would hope that manufacturing could benefit by by being involved in the rehab/manufacturing process - some do... mostly friends of "the regime of the day".

I believe all prison maufacturing in the U.S. is absolutely voluntary and subject to rules of good behavior among the participants since most people would like to do something rather than sit in a cell all the time. And they do get paid, although just a nominal amount.

It's not like Chinese forced labor camps.


edit:

And most importantly these people learn skills such as carpentry and metalworking, etc. so they can get a job when they get out.

[edit on 10/14/2006 by djohnsto77]

Every pedophile, murderer and rapist we off is 110,000$?

Christ Jesus, man! We could help the homeless in every major city in canada with a dead prisoner apiece, and use the rest to rebuild our infrastructure.

And that's not even counting medical costs and things like that, I'm guessing.

DE

I don't care what America does or doesn't do with their prison assets and I'm not likely to anytime soon. I don't give a hoot how they do it it in China either. LOL. Thankfully that's their problem.

So you folks are up for "greasing" humans, criminal and ill? Ok. Folks'll need new legislation, or rather old legislation from 1964 when we did have hanging. A society that kills it's malfunctioning constituents... perhaps that is worth exploring at some level. Too bad we couldn't pump that $110K per annum per human incarcerated into the problem before an offender goes "all walk-about" and requires "offing". What is the average "death row" vacation stay before execution? That might cost a few bucks.

It might not be a bad idea to drag out the Canadian West's historical notion of eugenics too. We're still paying off the victims of that. Better to murder a "Double Y" before birth and sterilize the propagators of such congenitally defective meat... before they murder you and yours. They are guilty of being and having the temerity to reproduce something less than a quality product... that'll save a few rubles. Where does a soceity draw the line when it comes to state sanctioned killing?

I'm willing to venture the notion that a rehabilitated person should in theory add to productivity rather than detract from it. I can not with peace of mind support the current status quo... where the "tail wags the dog" as DeusEx has mentioned about cases like Teale, Mom Boucher and others where the system is played by the offender.

No question about the need for more, better prisons and other alternatives too. It is easy to over-simplify and generalize about such solutions whether expedient or expensive. To look at it in terms of dollars saved as opposed to dollars invested is something to consider for sure.

I live in a high crime neighbourhood by choice... I'm stubborn and a rather obvious target. I can move to Aurora no problem. The area I'm in is getting better because of the change-over to Arabic residents as the dominant culture.

It's the project ghettos that one must be careful of... daytime is no problem, mostly. They come out at night, mostly - many races, many from less-than-ideal histories, with no perceived way out. Trapped in poverty and ignorance they extract what they can from the environment on their terms. Expensive. Given similar parameters, I could well be them.

Current reactionary responses are just that. Now a pro-active and pre-emptive solution of reasonble scope spanning decades and multi-diciplinary integration is a non-starter... no government could pull that off. Or could we? Until then it's band-aids and patches.

Canada does have a history and it has led us to this point. Any less than comprehensive solutions will insure a Gordian repetition. A magistrate with whom I play chess sometimes said something that stuck once, Her Worship said "I was guilty of being me and human"... and then she took my King.

Victor K.

41'

[edit on 14-10-2006 by V Kaminski]

Vic, like I said...psychopaths and pedophiles CAN'T be rehabilitated, can't be released. Why waste 110,000 perfectly good dollars a year on scum like them? Reoffending rapists should get the noose too, as far as I'm concerned. Id' go so far as to say thsoe that commit particularly heinous murders should dangle as well.

I mean, I AM human. Chronically reoffending folk of a lesser nature should be just locked up, and I'm not gonna suggest eugenics. But like I said, you put down your dog when it gets rabies. It's safer and more humane for everyone.

DE

Deus', all respect to you and your position and I don't dis-count the possibility that I can be entirely wrong. I'm sorry. I can't bring myself to agree. Why? Because they are human-beings. It is just the way I was raised and quite impossible to explain.

I really do want a better Canadian solution. The current alternatives all seem a bit, well a bunch, unacceptable. I do like law and order. I also want better for Canada.

Canadians are actually quite good at coming up with reasonable solutions for problems that "demand" attention. It's the management of that demand both in intent and action that keep our politicians and populace somewhat fractious and unable to devote the attention and resources to generational problems.

The "demand", caters to re-election, and sound-byte duration patches rather than goals that transcend partisan squabbles of the moment. This same issue comes up a couple of times every decade. I'm all for a national plebiscite on such issues. Too unfortunate that such exercises of societal self-determination don't occur. I wonder why?

Victor K.

43'

I see where you're coming from VK but these true offenders are NOT rehabilitatable. That's a fact. There is a benefit other than the monetary, NO future victims can be harmed. Is that a bad thing?

Harsh? Yup, for sure. We're not talking about drug dealers, B&E artists, prostitutes, white collar criminals, drunk drivers, etc. here. We're talking about predators. One question, would you consider those "human"?

I fear a national plebicite would only muck up our laws further. I mean, the hippy-liberal beret wearing types would scream bloody murder. What we need is a plebicite of police and correctiosn officers on subjects like this and gun control. To be blunt, the average citizen knows exactly zip about law enforcement. I know that, for instance, the American way of killing folks is just...well, awkward. There generally isn't MUCH suffering with hanging. Little more gruesome, yes, but more humane than the needle and the chair.

I keep making the point...but a rabid dog, yo.

DE

Yeah, I actually do consider them human and by definition and geno-type they are human. Do I want them dead? No. Do I want them free to prey? No. Do I want them locked up? You bet. Do I want them to be the best that they can possibly be? Yes. No more victims is the real goal - well put.

I know a brilliant mathematician, young - mid 40's - violent, delusional, disturbed at times. 'Taught me parallax angle calculations - then tried to strangle me, twice. Great big Hungarian fellow - 6' 6" 300lbs, I'm 5'8" about 160lbs. Is he broken? Yes, large. Is he capable of killing? Yup. Do I like him? Yes. Do I need him dead to not spend the coin to see that he is as well as can be? No. Is he predatory? At times, 'goes lookin' for trouble mostly with Orientals and Turks - can he control himself? Not a chance.

Is he locked up? Yup. Best place for him... most times he's as gentle, no, more gentle than a lamb. He just "goes off" - completely unpredictable and drugs just make him cranky and bleed out his butt. Human - type broken, sometimes predatory - and guess what he knows he's predatory and a danger to himself and others and he doesn't like it or himself either. He tries very hard.

Actually the other "lesser" crimes you mention - the one's of clear volition - they disturb me even more than the "psychos". Those folks know better and could choose otherwise. These people are criminals by choice - from bad situations, yes. But they have a choice.

These are the folks that need to have appropriate leverage applied against them - much like one domesticates and breaks a horse - they require a genuine rehabilitation... does it happen? Not often enough - no political will to allocate and apply resources and agency beyond a minimum, usually just enough to get past the next news cycle and on to the next issue. Perhaps our treatment of this issue as a society is criminally negligent - it is our sandbox after all. Who is to judge us, but us. It's our own fault that we can't make society work the way we need it to. Our fault - Canadians. We desrve better of ourselves.

Victor K.

43'

[edit on 14-10-2006 by V Kaminski]