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Ed Dames & "The Killshot" disaster to happen soon.

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posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:48 PM
Has anyone seen this DVD?

Here's some brief info on who he is.

He used to work for the government's remote viewing program. Now he supposedly sells DVDs on how to learn it at I recently saw "The Killshot" where he claims that a large celestial body will pass by earth disrupting the electronmagnet field and leaving us volunerable to an onslaught of solar flairs. He mentioned in the DVD that the first sign will be a shuttle mission getting grounded due to a meteor shower and that the safe places will be mid-north US and other places where crop circles are found. Has anyone else seen this video, or know anything about Ed Dames? He claims know all of this info through RV.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by Barcs]

posted on Oct, 11 2006 @ 06:50 PM
Not to worried. Dames has been saying this for years. He is a regular guest on coast to coast am radio show with Art Bell and George Noory. Seems like he has been saying this is imminent for the past 10 years. Each time he says it nothing happens, ocassionaly there will be a solar flare and he will take credit predicting it.

posted on Oct, 12 2006 @ 12:34 AM
Remote viewing is actually the ability to see a distant location in real time based on a locator such as a geographic coordinate. What Dames is claiming to be, is a psychic, and he's working really hard on getting into the same class as Sylvia Brown.

The "kill shot" used to be a sudden eruption of a solar flare of high gamma radiation that was to sweep earth clean of all life, when did he decide to change his story? Did he buy into the Nibiru and/or nemesis theories?

posted on Oct, 13 2006 @ 12:33 AM

Originally posted by crw2006
Not to worried. Dames has been saying this for years. He is a regular guest on coast to coast am radio show with Art Bell and George Noory. Seems like he has been saying this is imminent for the past 10 years. Each time he says it nothing happens, ocassionaly there will be a solar flare and he will take credit predicting it.

Actually he has been right quite a few times.

Acording to his last prediction, which he did make before what is happening now with NK, he said that when some sort of meteorite shower makes a shuttle land, things would get really interesting. (When i heard about the shuttle being hit by something, or two somethings which could possible have been meteorites i thought about Ed Dames prediction)

He said NK would test a nuke, and then they will use a nuke in anger. War will break out, but then he said something from space, meteor/kill shots etc, will make mankind forget about wars when things are really about to get from bad to worse.

Again, take all this with a grain of salt, but he has made quite a few hits and in many other cases he has been very close to a hit.

posted on Oct, 13 2006 @ 12:12 PM
Muaddib ... I have never heard of this fella before but from what you say ...
He really seems to be on target. if anyone has some good links or other info on him I'd love to see it.

I'd say that the shuttle having all those things following it this last time comes rather close to a meteorite shower kind of thing ... and then the alleged nuke test by NK ... and now the threats ....

hmmmmm .... I'm seriously wondering if I should be living in Delaware!

posted on Oct, 13 2006 @ 08:10 PM
I would have thought if the predicted meteorite shower was related to the disturbance with the last shuttle mission, the chocolate hotdog would have hit the fan by now. And now I see the next shuttle mission is planned for December, that's a long time off considering we're expecting the doom to come NOW.

The other thing that I wonder about is the 'Killshot' information is restricted for sale on DVD - if the predictions are not a scam then shouldn't each and every human being on the planet be freely entitled to this information? The last thing I would want to do is try and make money off potential misery, I'd want to warn each and every last person I could find if it was indeed a very real thing about to happen.

posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 02:56 AM
Here is a post from 2004 where he predicted a meteor shower would force a shuttle to land. It is true that the shuttle wasn't forced to land, or at least that's what we have been told.

Here is part of the prediction he made on April 2005 about a shuttle being forced to land because of a meteor shower.

Dames warned that we've reached the "beginning of the end," and can expect "a very serious series of events that will kill a lot of people" shortly after the Space Shuttle is forced down by a meteor shower. He said the window for the coming catastrophe falls within the next five years, and advised people to live in places with plentiful fresh water and underground protection.

Here is part of what Dames said about NK on August 17th 2006.

He also repeated his concern that North Korea will first test a nuclear weapon, and then use it out of anger.

That excerpt can be found to the right on the following link, under "Dames update".

The last predictions which he made on September 3rd on C2C can be found in this link. He mentioned again that NK would first test a nuclear weapon and then use it in anger.

To be fair people should know that he has not always been right in his predictions, you should know that in that same show he predicted an earthquake would happen in New Zealand in November 2005 but it didn't happen. However that is one of the areas that is very seismically active, and some new information about New Zealand has scientists worried.

Here are some facts about the area.

About 14,000 earthquakes are recorded in and around New Zealand each year. Most of them are small, but 100 to 150 are strong enough to be felt.

Scientists in New Zealand have been more worried lately about a major earthquake in the area because they have discovered that the risk is a lot higher than previously thought.

Scientists warn of disaster scenario in Bay of Plenty


The Bay of Plenty's earthquake and tsunami risk is far worse than previously thought - forcing scientists to radically revise threat predictions.

Scientists using state-of-the art sensors have discovered more than 1000 active faults that they have grouped into 166 potential sources of earthquakes - 152 more than previously known.

They include a huge field of faultlines capable of delivering shocks as large as the quake that devastated Edgecumbe 19 years ago.

The National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (Niwa) report comes after Environment Bay of Plenty stunned developers of the $300 million Papamoa Gateway project by objecting because the tsunami threat had not been properly assessed.

If you have a chance read the whole story, it is interesting.

Anyways, yes Ed Dames is not always right, but as i have said before i think he has been right enough times to at least take note of his predictions.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by Muaddib]

posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 08:14 AM

oh-my !

here's a report, not so recent ~ 16 April 2006 ~
about ed dames

but at least it shows that there are some persons acting as watch-dogs
and sharing with the rest of us on the internet...

it's brief, quick to read, dated, but the report includes a mention on 'kill shot'
in one sentence: recent solar flare activity is proof that the 'kill shot' is near


posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 08:03 PM
Actually Udio, he has been right more times than it is claimed in that site.

It is true that there are people who hate it to death and do exagerate about his hits.

I have been following his predictions and he has made several hits.

Why is it that the person who posted in that site does not mention that Ed Dames did say the next nuclear test would be performed by North Korea, and then they will use another in anger.

A few months ago when there was a huge explosion in NK and some people thought it was a nuclear explosion Ed Dames said that was not a nuclear explosion.

Anyways, we all know NK did test a nuke on the Korean peninsula as Ed Dames said.

There have been several other hits of his which are not mentioned in that link you gave.

For example he did talk several times in the past about a mysterious mold that would attack crops and it would start in the continent of Africa, it is happening as we speak.

If anyone is a blatant lier i'll say it is whoever wrote that blog/website you gave a link to.

posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 09:11 PM
The website you mention is mine. All I do is listen to his crap on Coast to Coast Am and record his predictions. I do not have the time any more to nit pick through all the predictions and point out which came true and which didn't, but they are there for all to read and judge for themselves.

Ed Dames is an out and out scam. he is now claiming he has a new RV technique that will allow him to predict long shot winning bets on football and baseball. He told one caller he wasn't going to make the technique public until he has made his millions in Las Vegas. Why if he can make millions with this RV stuff does he have to keep promoting his teaching dvd's and seminar?

True or False

posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 07:13 PM
reply to post by Muaddib

regarding Ed Dames, I have listened to many of his interviews online and initially found him to be very credible, however, after listening to a number of his interview I quite suddenly became put off by him.

Many of his predictions could easily be gleaned from existing geological and/or socio-economic understandings.
-Is there any question that there might be an earthquake in the australia/new zealand area in the near future? This area is highly seismic and it is really only a matter of time before a major event occurs.
-"North Korea will test and possibly launch a nuclear weapon"?! Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of international affairs could tell you that this is a salient possibility.

Furthermore, he discusses the "Alien Agenda" almost as an aside yet tells us that what he has seen "you don't want to will keep you up at night"...Well if he knows something of that magnitude then I can manage a few sleepless nights in exchange for that knowledge.

"the economy will collapse?" Seriously folks, have a glance at the Economist every once and a while and you'll come to that same conclusion yourself. I "predicted" that the sub-prime mortgage fiasco would cause the US economy to go into recession 18 months ago and was pretty sure that the economy would eventually go into recession the day that George W was inaugurated in 2000.

I have a significant belief in the type of awareness that Mr. Dames purports to be trained in, I think that there is a knowledge that exists outside our normal consciousness that can be tapped into however Mr. Dames' (and others') profiteering in this matter makes me ill. If there is a higher level of consciousness, if there is a universal law of attraction, I highly doubt that the universal forces are best utilised so that you and I can invest wisely in gold before the "kill shot". Yeesh.

If there is a higher level of consciousness to be attained (I believe there is) then that increased awareness ought to 'enlighten' us to our true natures, to give us a greater, wider, more discerning understanding of the human condition, of our place in the universe and of the important role that we play in our own future.

If Mr. Dames had any sense of honour or decency he would offer to teach the world his skills for free, rather than offer his $699 program for a "mere $299...a full $400 value!" or for a 7 day trial with a 60 day (or six month depending on what page of his website you're on) money back guarantee (i wonder if that guarantee applies if solar flares fry my dvd player?).

But seriously folks do you really want to fork out 300 bucks for a remote viewing program that uses subliminal messages to activate certain important functions of the brain that was designed by the CIA? What's the best counter intelligence tactic that you can think of? Disinformation? Fear tactics? Mind control? Or all three wrapped in one in a 4 DVD package.

If you're looking for the truth, look inside of yourself, it's there if you look hard enough. If you're looking for the future the LHC comes online again in September, maybe that will open the door, maybe it won't. I'm sure that there are people who can teach these things to us, I just don't think that Ed Dames is the right person

check out for some interesting reading or look at if you really want remote viewing, at least they provide their targeted mind control for free ;-) and my aplogies to the person whose post I'm replying to, I don't post often and don't mean to offend if I've breached protocol...perhaps if I have an admin will redirect my post.

posted on Feb, 25 2009 @ 08:21 PM

I first saw Ed on video, 'monitoring' a remote viewing session, in April of 1996 (when I was training in a psychic methodology incorrectly billed "as" Remote Viewing--still a common practice). I had 15 years experience of extensive reading and practice of hypnosis and self-hypnosis and NLP, so imagine my hilarity at this guy who KNEW THE TARGET standing 3 feet from the table where the psychic was sitting, and this guy looked like he was playing charades. And was asking about info the person hadn't even provided. I got a real good laugh about it. Didn't think I'd hear of him again.

In May of 1996 he first showed up on the Art Bell show. And it just got worse from there. Now had I know that rather than be thrown in Leavenworth for public stuff he should have been eons ago (related to revealing black ops stuff in public), his "strategic deception" unit had done zero about his 'public behavior' and then promoted him to Major and released him on the world, I probably would have known what was coming. But I was blissfully ignorant at the time. I complained to the people actually qualified in the field. I went back and TRANSCRIBED every word of his early radio shows to send them so they could read it. They said, "Yeah, that CIA-buddy Schnabel's documentary end of last year that had Ed's "Keeper of the Flame" crap made me vomit on my TV. But he's a goon, it'll be 15 minutes and it'll pass." But... it didn't pass. Gah!

If you want to know more about Ed, nothing would be more educational than reading some of those transcripts -- from 10-14 YEARS AGO -- the fact that you are alive to read them may, however, cast some doubt on his authenticity.

Here's a link to a few at my old (archived static now) website:

In case you're interested in the content, here's a couple of the intros:

Transcript: Radio May 31, 1996
Art Bell Coast to Coast AM (USA)
Ed Dames

The beginning of the infamous Dames-Bell-Brown media bonanza. Ed talks about why we are all doomed (from a range of impending cataclysms), Psi-Tech (and what they do), and gives advice on where Art's 10 million listeners should go to escape (which is, humorously enough, in the opposite direction of where he is going). Ed scares Art half to death in merely 45 minutes and ensures a glorious future as a repeat guest.

Transcript: Radio January 30, 1997
Art Bell Coast to Coast AM (USA)
Ed Dames

Ed talks about the plant pathogen that is going to wipe us out, how a UFO 'decomissioned' the Telstar 401 orbiting satellite, [...] his new video tapes for sale, et al.

I could start telling detailed accounts of the last 13 years of history of remote viewing and Ed Dames, but try not to get me started. Suffice to say that you can look at this like, "Hmmmn. A 'former military intelligence' guy has done more damage to the legitimacy and true understanding of a subject than could have been imagined. He currently bills himself as an expert."

Wait... UFOlogy flashback... where have I heard this before??


posted on Feb, 25 2009 @ 08:37 PM
I love major doom, he should be a guest on ATSmix. I try to never miss his shows, if nothing else he had been preparing people for years to be ready for the unknowns that force us to be responsible for our own selves.

Yep he is so cool.

posted on Feb, 25 2009 @ 08:42 PM
reply to post by RedCairo

Were you jealous then or now? Is there a part of you that wanted to hold the position of on high for yourself? Why were you the type to tattletale?

Are you still angry and a tattletail?

posted on Feb, 25 2009 @ 10:03 PM
On the contrary. My life was dedicated to the practice and the study and the sharing about remote viewing long before I ever heard of the man.

I wish I could share with your un-angelic reaction the history that has gone into why I think someone being a psychopath, a pathological liar, an official disinformation agent, and profoundly destructive the art of my path, is actually a problem.

Do you believe in anything at all? Do you want people to know something about what is real, or true, or valuable, or useful? How would you feel if you were neck-deep in study and practice of one of the most fascinating subjects you'd encountered in your life, and someone deliberately went into the mass media and completely destroyed the fundamental understanding of it with the public, made a mockery of it, and pretty much did little but generate fear and trauma both with individuals and the public at large?

Let us pretend that you were me and you had the first ever layman's website dedicated to remote viewing, end of '95 just after the CIA released information about the STAR GATE program (or to be more specific: the selective collection of projects now retroactively called that). Let's say you get unbelievable amounts of email every day about the subject from the public who finds you, in part because at this time there are an entire 3 website on the internet about it and the other two are from people who were part of the program and don't much have time to respond to anybody? You can't keep up with the mass volume in email flooding in.

But it's your dharma so you really try to take time and help people and share info and point them to books and people and more.

And then you get people writing you in email, in letters (!), calling you on the telephone, bawling their heads off. Normal people, businessmen, housewives. Their marriage is breaking up because their husband cannot understand why they must move to a remote mountain in switzerland, or because their wife is upset they emptied the college fund for their child to spend over $10,000 to learn how to write something down on paper -- without, I might add, any special magic about how to GET that information -- the training is merely how to record it.

Counsel enough people traumatized like that from the general public and you start getting an opinion.

Then you start meeting some of those people who paid all those thousands for training. They know so little about the subject they are literally more harm than help; they were pointedly not taught the more important and defining elements which gave the subject the only legitimacy it ever had; and often they were seriously screwed with psychologically by someone who is apparently either too retarded (unlikely) or too sociopathic (apparently) to really think about what they're doing.

At the time I created a few transcripts of radio shows, I was attempting to get some qualified people including scientists to go public and share their history and information with the general public.

They talked to me plenty. But right then, millions of people seemed to want to know more about remote viewing. By some miracle I was actually able to be in touch with lots of people and involved and find out. But most of the world didn't have that advantage. I wanted to help get that information out to the world.

So I made websites, like for Dr. Charles Tart, part of that program indirectly and a leading consciousness researcher. I made a website for Russell Targ, one of the early people involved in the research program as well (both are authors). And for Joseph McMoneagle, viewer #001 from the intell program and the science program and applications work since. I did webwork for papers from Dr. Jessica Utts that were specific to remote viewing, and back in those early days, helped other intell 'viewers' get stuff online as well.

I transcribed Ed's shows as a way of convincing the others to SAY something.

They just didn't choose to.

Jealousy (?!) is not involved.

posted on Feb, 25 2009 @ 10:34 PM
reply to post by RedCairo

I don't believe it jealousy, I believe they were intimidated. Just like the scientists around the world who have spoken out against the incorrect data supplied in support of global warming. They are chastised within their own fields and some have had their pensions revoked.

He's using NLP and other things for some of his readings. Some people should view Darren Browns videos on charlatans in the spiritual realms. All explained
... good stuff.


[edit on 25-2-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

posted on Feb, 25 2009 @ 11:41 PM
Perhaps I should add to my post that people who believe in a turbulent future do not really need (and I would think would not want) someone like Dames to be part of their justification in any case.

There are plenty of people including viewers who foresee a less than charming future. Of course things may be 'probabilities' so who knows really, but there are sources besides that one for support from the psi realm.

He has so obliterated his own reputation to anybody with decent information that his involvement in any subject, theory, prediction, or effort, would instantly invalidate its likelihood as anything but delusion to anybody informed looking on. Not what any folks wanting their cause or interests taken seriously should want associated with them.

Since there IS some indication the world is (going to hell?) not getting cheerier anytime soon ("please settle in your Handbasket and fasten your seatbelt"), it would be unfortunate to let people like him ruin the seriousness or respect with which people take some of the warnings about that.

posted on Feb, 26 2009 @ 02:54 AM
OK I finally had some more time. If I didn't type 120 I could never survive this forum every few weeks when I visit!

I will mention here the first, primary, foundational part of most legitimate remote viewing protocols is what is called "the double-blind".

That means two layers (the viewer + anyone-else) of blind; it means that not only the psychic (viewer) but also anybody physiologically present with them in any way must not know what the target is (or usually, know its 'nature' either, unless that is really generalized, eg 'the target is a location').

There are many reasons for this including fraud, error, accident, and the fact that for many decades now, science has known of a vast amount of information transfer which can happen between human bodies with no 'visible / audible' sign of it happening.

The process is a hypnotic modality. As a viewer, there you sit, "relaxed and open to impressions" -- essentially in a light to moderate level of hypnosis. If your 'monitor' knows the target and is your considered source of authority and is directing you through the session (triple whammy plus you're hyper-suggestive), this is not about psychic functioning at all.

That is the situation of the past for 'psychics' that allows SO much fraud, abuse of 'psychics' (who became indoctrinated cult followers), misleading of the public, and more.

It also is cult indoctrination or a form of light mind control if done wrong; when someone is suggestible and walked through what amounts to visualization-- and when you do it on things that are profoundly psychologically destabilizing to be exposed to all at once or that conflict with existing upbringing, religion, belief systems most the population has (like aliens, imminent doom, their own death, etc.) you can cause such destabilization in someone's psychology that at that point you can pretty much "imprint" them with all you want.

Then they're tied to the leader. If a viewer's ability to view is linked to things their psychology doesn't want to or cannot reconcile, they'll only go so far before they have to drop it; they won't continue long term to real skill. If their success is linked to their leader's alleged glory or their method's alleged infallibility, then they can never see clearly and invalidate that leader or let go and adopt a different (maybe more effective) method -- as it would invalidate the belief systems neatly put together during that training environment.

As a long time person into hypnotist/NLP, I gotta admire how effective it's been. But I got into RV because I love the topics of psi and human potential, not because I wanted to learn variants on cult psychology and mind control.

Real Remote Viewing pulled psychic functioning out of the muck of superstition and fear and avoidance and put it in a science protocol--the big key being the doubleblind--so that all the forms of fraud, error and more could NOT, by the controls imposed on the situation, occur.

RV has two parts to its definition: one that it is "free-response" psychic functioning (not choose-something, but totally open to communicate whatever you like, this is very important); two that it is acquiring data that couldn't be acquired via "any known means". The science controls (the RV protocol) are what handle the second part which is what 'validates and keeps clean' the first part.

And it has a front and back to bind it: it's done 'on purpose' on an intended target (not 'whatever, out of the air, to compare with anything that sorta seems to match', & not spontaneous psi); in back, it should eventually have feedback (a 'real answer' to compare with the viewer data, so you can see if it was really 'psychic/RV' and not just imagination, etc.).

These four points: on purpose, free-response, double-blind, with-feedback, are critical, although the last one is open to 'waiting' for it before evaluation.

(There are variants I won't go into here for simplicity.)


posted on Feb, 26 2009 @ 02:55 AM
reply to post by RedCairo

The point of a doubleblind was not to make you more psychic (amplify the signal); the point was to ensure nothing that was NOT psychic would interfere (reducing the noise).

The latter does help the former though... a lot. And it's gigantic for 'evaluation' reasons (applying the data to real-world targets).

In remote viewing, the preferred original format is two people; the psychic and an interviewer. The interviewer asks them questions, sometimes makes notes of their own. They are also fully blind to the target of course. It is commonly reported that the interviewer asking just the right question at the right time to spark something in the viewer was an important part of the process. This is "tandem psi." That element also was and is considered very important.

Over a decade after remote viewing had been officially coined (1971), and had spread out in research around the world, had a few books published on it with examples, and had years before had an Army intelligence unit founded to utilize it, at that point, one of the first viewers who'd been involved in the research began developing a psychic methodology (80's). Much like Jose Silva (of Silva Mind Control) and innumerable others had developed such things previously, the same kind of idea.

Many of the early people involved in remote viewing were scientologists. This, combined with one experimental idea regarding feedback, resulted in the role of the interviewer shifting to what the scientologists called the "monitor" -- a term from that field which stuck and is now common in RV. A target-informed monitor put it out of any legit protocol of course, but that was being used in the experimental psychic methods training, which was not done in the science lab and which had some 'questionable' about its science validation even during that era (let alone now).

In that approach, the monitor knew the target; they sat 3 feet across the table from the viewer!; they were responsible for 'keeping the viewer' to the rules of the method, et al. Of course as they were informed of the target, the whole 'Psi Tandem' was impossible; it was an analytical management role.

In other words, the interviewer position was shifted into a "controller" position... more in keeping with the scientology-mindset of the methods developer.

Add a 'controller' to a 'hypnotic modality' and what do you get? Throw in the controller knowing the target, some NLP, some cold-reading (even by accident), and targets which are often invented in someone's head, aren't even REAL, and have no feedback, and what do you get? But wait, add a cognitive-dissonance inducing, psychologically destablizing training environ, and what do you get?

Well whatever it is, it has nothing to do with remote viewing.

More like a cult situation where ego-insanity took advantage of something with a 'name of legitimacy' -- to usurp its credential, discredit its validity, make a mockery of the subject in general, and profoundly mislead a ton of people about what it even WAS -- for fame, and for money, and probably for disinformation. (His last unit really *was* a 'strategic deception' unit. Coincidence??)


posted on Feb, 26 2009 @ 02:56 AM
reply to post by RedCairo

Scientists say, "It's not RV unless it's done in an approved remote viewing protocol." Ed says, "I teach the remote viewing protocols." Radically different things. The science element was the ONLY thing that gave remote viewing any legitimacy it ever had.

He has managed to convince half the planet that 'remote viewing' means "his psychic method." Yeah, the one that was an experiment over 10 years later, unfinished, and canceled for not working out as planned. Ironically, RV existed long before the method was even considered let alone developed, and the most successfull people with it in research, in the intelligence unit, and in known applications, were simply "relaxing and describing." No 'psychic method' at all beyond internal (mental) stuff they developed themselves as they went along.

Yet he has managed to take a world of people smart enough to know that everyone is psychic and they can do this if they focus on it, and convince them that they've got to learn some paint-by-number plan. One that might not even work well for them. Oh yeah and you need to learn it from someone who is former military intelligence. With an in-person training (before his current marketing corp started making a killing on DVDs/etc.) which would ensure you were psychologically captive. And you'll accidentally not learn anything you should so you can't even talk to legit people about it because they'll think you're a moron. And you'll learn a whole definition it's not and be taught an approach that'll pretty much ensure you will never become frighteningly competent and a worry to the government.

You can teach yourself remote viewing. Free. Unless you mistakenly define it as "that-guy's-method", in which case you need thousands to visit an official GURU (don't-say-cult-leader). You can only 'teach yourself' something cleanly once. Once you are indoctrinated with someone else's pattern of how your mind is supposed to work during a process as unique as a dream, you are from then on working from that model; it's work to shift.

If you're taught that method "is" RV, then what do science controls mean?
Why do you need feedback to validate anything to prevent delusion?
Why do you need the doubleblind to prevent fraud?
If it's all about the psychic method, then everything which made RV more successful, more legitimate, which contributed to viewer skill as well, is moot.

Every point of absolute fraud he has perpetuated on the mass public in the name of RV has been BECAUSE of that crafty re-definition of RV from a science-based protocol with controls like the doubleblind, to instead being about a psychic method (during which you could employ all the hypnotic cult tactics you like).

I have personally, repeatedly -- more times than I can count! -- over the last 12 years, met people who have shelled out $10-20,000 to learn something called 'remote viewing'--that amount mostly from Ed. And they come out of it not only uninformed about everything important to RV, but often with cognitive dissonance from issues in training that preclude the likelihood they'll ever stick with viewing and do the government the danger of actually being competent.

[edit on 26-2-2009 by RedCairo]

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