O Christmas Tree rewritten as pagan.

The link you've sited also says:

Many superstitions surround the holly. It is a man's plant and is believed to bring good luck and protection to men while ivy brings the same to women. It is thought that whoever brings the first sprig of Christmas holly into the home will wear the pants that year. It was hung about the doors and windows to keep away witches, spells, evil spirits, goblins, and lightning.

If there are "many superstitions" then I don't think you can fairly credit holly to solely Saturnalia. More easily, I can say God created the holly therefore any symbolism otherwise is a bastardization thereof.

In this same paragraph it says it means to keep away witches. Was that a druidic practice then? Also, notice it says the first sprig of "Christmas" holly, not regular ole holly. Finally, the song does not encourage the admiration and adoration of holly as does the pagan version of O Christmas Tree.

All very fascinating if we were discussing the song "Deck the Halls". I think it's interesting that this site accredits Deck the Halls to be a Christian hymn. To that point, I don't know and haven't research. Rather than talking about Holly, the origins of the Christmas Tree, I'm interested in the Hymn "O Christmas Tree" and how there was an apparent change from Christian lyrics to pagan ones.


[edit on 13-10-2006 by saint4God]

I'm not even sure why you keep up with this thread. You refuse to accept any type of proof except what you want to believe. It's almost as if you just want to argue no matter how many people come up with proof that your christmas song started out as pagan in the first place. As far as it being a hymn, it just sounds like another old christmas song like Deck the Halls. What is the difference? Why is one a hymn and the other a christmas song as you say?

Originally posted by closettrekkie
I'm not even sure why you keep up with this thread. You refuse to accept any type of proof except what you want to believe.

Not true, but you'd have to know me in order to make any conclusions to this regard...or at least read other threads I've been on.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
It's almost as if you just want to argue no matter how many people come up with proof that your christmas song started out as pagan in the first place.

I'm asking for a precursor to the hymn I've noted. I can show expo-facto that it was added to and changed with pagan lyrics. The only argument that could be made at this point was that it was originally pagan (with provided proofs thereof) and necessitated to be changed back for some reason.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
As far as it being a hymn, it just sounds like another old christmas song like Deck the Halls. What is the difference? Why is one a hymn and the other a christmas song as you say?

Authoriship. One wrote a CHRISTmas song, the other wrote a seasonal celebration song as it seems. Deck the Halls seems not to have the words of a believer from the one who wrote it, unless I've missed something.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by Strangerous

Also while we're on this subject who appointed you 'saint'? I thought only Popes could do that after evidence of a miracle? If you see your role in life to spread the belief in your god shouldn't it be 'pilgrim' rather than 'saint'

That only applies to Catholics. The Pope has no say or authority in matters of anything in Protestant churches.

In many Protestant denominations, the term saint refers to a devoted believer in Jesus who work to further the gospel and lives a life as best as possible.

Hindus also use the word saint to denote a very holy person

Originally posted by Jade Bridge

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by Strangerous

Also while we're on this subject who appointed you 'saint'? I thought only Popes could do that after evidence of a miracle? If you see your role in life to spread the belief in your god shouldn't it be 'pilgrim' rather than 'saint'

That only applies to Catholics. The Pope has no say or authority in matters of anything in Protestant churches.

In many Protestant denominations, the term saint refers to a devoted believer in Jesus who work to further the gospel and lives a life as best as possible.

Hindus also use the word saint to denote a very holy person

That's because the Hindu religion comes from Babylon from Zoroaster who was Nimrod. Nimrod King of Babylon who was also called Sanctus or Saint.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Jade Bridge

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by Strangerous

Also while we're on this subject who appointed you 'saint'? I thought only Popes could do that after evidence of a miracle? If you see your role in life to spread the belief in your god shouldn't it be 'pilgrim' rather than 'saint'

That only applies to Catholics. The Pope has no say or authority in matters of anything in Protestant churches.

In many Protestant denominations, the term saint refers to a devoted believer in Jesus who work to further the gospel and lives a life as best as possible.

Hindus also use the word saint to denote a very holy person

That's because the Hindu religion comes from Babylon from Zoroaster who was Nimrod. Nimrod King of Babylon who was also called Sanctus or Saint.

The Hindu religion originated from the Indus River Valley, not Babylon!!

Sorry, the Hindu religion came from Zoroastrianism. That looks like a trident in your picture. Thats the same Trident of Poseidon or Nepture. They are also Nimrod from Babylon.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Sorry, the Hindu religion came from Zoroastrianism. That looks like a trident in your picture. Thats the same Trident of Poseidon or Nepture. They are also Nimrod from Babylon.

as i've told you before sun, zoroaster wasn't even alive and hinduism was already being practiced

the harappan civilization come about around 7000 years ago, and they practiced a form of hinduism

the figure zoroaster is placed to about 1200 BCE, or 3200 years ago...

there is at least a 3800 year gap there in which hinduism was being practiced

and how is zoroaster nimrod?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

and how is zoroaster nimrod?

How is Zoroaster Nimrod. The same way.................

Nimrod is Osiris

Nimrod is Gilgamesh

Nimrod is Zeus

Nimrod is Odin

Nimrod is Dagon

Nimrod is Jupiter

Nimrod is Poseidon

Nimrod is Neptune

Nimrod is Vishnu

Nimrod is Prometheus

Nimrod is Marduk

And on and on and on and on..................

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

and how is zoroaster nimrod?

How is Zoroaster Nimrod. The same way.................

Nimrod is Osiris

Nimrod is Gilgamesh

Nimrod is Zeus

Nimrod is Odin

Nimrod is Dagon

Nimrod is Jupiter

Nimrod is Poseidon

Nimrod is Neptune

Nimrod is Vishnu

Nimrod is Prometheus

Nimrod is Marduk

And on and on and on and on..................

that's a deflective answer, all you've done is made an elaboration on the statement, i want the reasoning behind the statement

and still, how is hinduism derived from a religion that it preceded?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

and how is zoroaster nimrod?

How is Zoroaster Nimrod. The same way.................

Nimrod is Osiris

Nimrod is Gilgamesh

Nimrod is Zeus

Nimrod is Odin

Nimrod is Dagon

Nimrod is Jupiter

Nimrod is Poseidon

Nimrod is Neptune

Nimrod is Vishnu

Nimrod is Prometheus

Nimrod is Marduk

And on and on and on and on..................

that's a deflective answer, all you've done is made an elaboration on the statement, i want the reasoning behind the statement

and still, how is hinduism derived from a religion that it preceded?

Your dating on Hinduism is incorrect.

Do one simple search..........Nimrod and Marduk..........What do you find?

Saint is a english word for a holyman (or woman) of sorts their were buddaist saints too in china and Japan, and India.

Though they would not actualy be called the word saint, it would be whatever equivelent word in a different language, but translating it would make the person a saint.

Kind of like in Japan has a emporer, obviously speaking japanese you do not call him the english word 'emporer', which is very much a european/latin/germanic word.

Little confusion, people should grasp that language/culteral gaps exist, but reoccuring things do exist.

which is very much a european/latin/germanic word.

OK let us examine this statement.
First European is an umbrella term that enconpass's several languages and linguistic root languages.

Second, Latin " La Lingue Roma" has nothing to do with
Germanic, Teutonic,English, Saxon, " La Lingue Purea."

Latin is of course the root and base of Spanish, Mexican ( Who have no
culture or language of their own, the entire culture and language of mexico is borrowed (( and that is being kind)) from other cultures),and French. As to the french it has been recently observed, " It Cannot be a World War until the French SURRENDER."

So there it is.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
Saint, I think you misunderstood. I am not a pagan, I am a Christian and have pointed out that you may be wrong about Christmas. Pagans didn't pervert Christmas. Christians started observing Yule as Christ's b-day so that pagans would convert to Christianity and still be able to observe their pagan holy day.

I am a pagan and observe the traditions of All Hallows Eve, Winter and Summer Solstices & many other events in the pagan calender. I attend Well Dressing festivals that are prevalent in my region as do many Christians.
Many pagan tradtions have been hijacked by Christianity and almost all ancient British pagan sites have had a Church built on them hundreds of years ago. The influence of Christianity in Britain should have spelt the death knell of the pagan traditions centuries ago but these traditions are alive and kicking with no sign of going away.
Whatever faith or belief system anyone adopts is personal choice to that person. Yule has become Christmas and so what!
The greenwood tree is brought into the home and decorated as tradition, the yule log too. This is a season of good will whatever faith you subscribe to - if any!
I don't have any hangups about Christmas nor care what version of O' Christmas tree version anyone sings or approves of. Lighten up, embrace the festivities and have a happy time. We are all children of the earth we all have a right to be here.
Happy Yule, Merry Christmas , Seasons Greetings to all.

I understand that europe consists of many countrys, but the point is that european words (namely english) are used to describe things in other countrys that very much do not have a link to any actual tradition that existed in europe or the middle east.

Like emporer, latter parts of the roman empire had emporers, and so did China and Japan. That doesn't mean that the idea of a emporer was a idea imported from the Roman empire to said countrys. Or likewise that in Babalon, Persia (who preceded the Romans). Also in said countrys the offical word would for the ruler would not actualy be 'emporer' but whatever equivelent in their own language.

And I think that Mexico had a language and culture before the spanish language came, unless the Aztechs were mutes with no language or culture.

The dark lord is quite bigoted.... which kind of makes sense, but still I don't remember Sauron, or the emporer from star wars saying anything racist or of the sort. Which I find odd, if they are evilest of beings shouldn't every now and then say something anti-semetic, or of the sort.

Emporer of Darkness -"man I sure do hate jews and Italians"

reply to post by saint4God

The Celtic culture of the British Isles revered all green plants, but particularly mistletoe and holly. These were important symbols of fertility and were used for decorating their homes and alta

New Christmas customs appeared in the Middle Ages. The most prominent contribution was the carol, which by the 14th century had become associated with the religious observance of the birth of Christ.

rs.[/e

In Italy, a tradition developed for re-enacting the birth of Christ and the construction of scenes of the nativity. This is said to have been introduced by Saint Francis as part of his efforts to bring spiritual knowledge to the laity.

x]

Saints Days have also contributed to our Christmas celebrations. A prominent figure in today's Christmas is Saint Nicholas who for centuries has been honored on December 6th. He was one of the forerunners of Santa Claus.

Another popular ritual was the burning of the Yule Log, which is strongly embedded in the pagan worship of vegetation and fire, as well as being associated with magical and spiritual powers.

Celebrating Christmas has been controversial since its inception. Since numerous festivities found their roots in pagan practices, they were greatly frowned upon by conservatives within the Church. The feasting, gift-giving and frequent excesses presented a drastic contrast with the simplicity of the Nativity, and many people throughout the centuries and into the present, condemn such practices as being contrary to the true spirit of Christmas.

The earliest English reference to December 25th as Christmas Day did not come until 1043.

(christmas-time.com)




You may also find this link very useful.

Saint, what is the reason for posting this? It's really no conspiracy, people have been making Xmas a non-Christian holiday for years. I really see no problem with it. Now if they said "Ok, from now on you WILL sing the Pagan version, the Christian version is outlawed." Then I can see your beef.

To me it looks like someone making something more accessible, which would be good. Have people of different faiths singing songs together.

Also I think the point people were making with the "It's all Pagan anyway" argument is Christians did the same thing as this, but on a much grander scale. So why get all worked up about a song? If you feel God and Jesus in your heart, celebrate the season how you feel it should be celebrated, don't worry that someones encroaching on your turf.

Originally posted by saint4God
There's a movement (conspiracy?) to make Christian things non-Christian.

On Topic.

This whole thread cracks me up. Christians take a secular song and change the words to add in their beliefs in God. Now they wish to claim that there is a conspiracy to make it non Christian??? The original version in German made NO reference to God nor Christmas. It was about a beautiful tree that kept its charm in summer and winter time and brought joy to all who beheld it. A later, modified, Christian version is used to support their claim. Sounds to me that someone is VERY religiously bias and wants to push their agenda on others.

It does not matter one bit where the idea for a Christmas tree came from. The topic here is converting a song to reflect religious beliefs or non beliefs. The Christians changed the song and now are upset that anyone would care to sing the untainted version.

Stop trying to make people follow YOUR rules. If you are a true believer then stop your winning. Jesus would be dissapointed in you for making such a fuss.