O Christmas Tree rewritten as pagan.

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by saint4God
Saint Nicholas was a man who was charitable, giving gifts to celebrate Christ, but that's a story for another thread.

So you're saying that the same Santa Clause that parents tell their kids about, living in the North Pole, is a man who lived from the 4th century named Saint Nicholas of Myra? Amazing how much health care has advanced to keep someone alive for over 1700 years.

I did say "was" did I not? Ah, indeed I did. Glad to see I hadn't mispoken. Quite a fantastic imagination you have though.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Notice I did not deviate from the topic.

What does Santa have to do with the lyrics to O Christmas tree?

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Your creation of the topic was to address in your own words a "movement (conspiracy?) to make Christian things non-Christian." Santa Clause is one of the major idols of Christmas,

Someone worships Santa? Anyway, still not the topic.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
in which many Christian parents teach their kids to attribute him to a "Christ" like figure, almost as a diety,

Then they are in error for doing so. It was the paganification of Saint Nicholas, hybridizing him with Father Winter that caused such error.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
and this same figure is being removed from Christmas decorations in public places.

There's a thread about public displays of religious/belief symbolism, to which I'd stated essentially we all have the right to express our beliefs with respect to the rights of others.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Again, I must ask..

What does it matter, you're just overanalyzing it.

I like to call it "critical thinking" and advocate us all doing so.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Who cares where it came from exactly, it's a tradition that has become
associated with Chrismas (purposefully left out the "t").

I mean is'nt the purpose of CHRISTmas to celebrate the birth of Christ,
and peace on Earth, and goodwill to your fellow person?

Yeah. But when you perform a ritual, wouldn't you like to know why you're doing it?

Originally posted by iori_komei
And you don't have to be Christian to celebrate Chrismas, I do, and I'm
a Theran-Agnostic.

New term for me, perhaps you can U2U me with the definition?

Originally posted by Styki
You mean you wouldn't want somebody to take the words to a song that you hold close to you?

No, more like I'd like believers to be aware what is being changed and why.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Kind of like someone taking the exact dates

This is agreed upon by the townfolk of the time. I agree they should be separated again. Let's work towards that goal together.

Originally posted by iori_komei
and symbols of holidays, and telling people they are important dates for another religion.

I agree this is also incorrect. Let us separate them.

Originally posted by iori_komei
It's a good idea they have really... I mean if they take the words of the song, take all the Christian parts out of it and leave other parts then people might really start thinking it's a pagan song. This could really become a big thing. I think that you should let everyone know! Stop this madness!

Styki

I shall do my best.

Originally posted by jazz_psyker
More ironey is that that which is Pagan, Wiccan or whatever in speech things are inserted like thou, thy, doth. Old english speach things, which are often contained in the bible or from times when people were pretty much purely zealous Christians, and not much else.

"thou art God" "God made man in thy image"

I fail to see your connection between Pagan/Wiccan and Christianity because they both use Old English. So what. Satanism uses modern English and so does Scientology. So what.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Not just speaking of that carol, seriously whats with that. In my oppinion its one of those wierd traditions that don't realy serve much of a perpose.

Tradition alone needs to go, I agree, but this was a hymn which does indeed have a purpose.

Originally posted by iori_komei
If you want to comunicate something weither religous or not allways speak in as clear modern english as posiable (or whatever other language is one your most fluent in). Messages of the devine beyond (God) should allways be as clear and normal as posiable. Though thats just my oppinion.

Agreed on this point.

Originally posted by Akareyon

I apologize, saint4god, when I'm off topic! but:

word by word translation from the german original. Maybe or not that it can help at some later point of the discussion.

Actually thank you for staying ON topic. The issue I have for this link you've provided is it provides no historical data or information as to authorship or authentication. In my research of the hymn, I had a year more was written and by whom it was changed.

Originally posted by Akareyon
I'm quite proud of it (the translation). One could argue that it sounds a bit... nordic/germanic.

It is German.

Originally posted by Akareyon
The original has no reference to god and only one to "christmas time" ("Weihnachtszeit", which could once have been anything really). Even "with the stroke of a pagan pen" there are more references to christmas-specific topics like candles and toys than in the German lyrics.

Please provide the support to the assertion that the hymn was not first.

Originally posted by Akareyon

I hate christmas time.

Then why bother?

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
saint4god, why are you so offended by Paganism?

I'm not (I'm ex-Pagan myself), but I do want a hymn to stay a hymn.

Originally posted by Akareyon
Why are most Christians?

You'd have to ask them.

Originally posted by Akareyon
If you are of European decent Pagan is you ansestors religion. christianity is a middle eastern religion. Why have we let a religion that was started by another culture take our European religion over. I for one am very proud of the complex Pagan rituals that have come from so many years of trial and error.

Certainly your right to do so.

Originally posted by Akareyon
Be proud that our holidays have Pagan roots, and not middle eastern roots. I for one am a proud Kelt, and will not let some foriegn religion dictate what my beliefs are.

Its a full moon, I have to go do my Pagan thing!

Holiday = Holy day. I'm not celebrating something I don't consider Holy. Surely you understand that per your full moon celebration.

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
WikiPedia -- link on history of O Tannenbaum

Another link on history of O Tannenbaum

About.com -- O Tannenbaum page

These three links talk about what is popularly accepted, not originals. Do you believe the truth is what is "popularly accepted"?

Let me point this out if I may.

Words: O Tannenbaum. First verse is traditional German, and sometimes attributed to August Zarnack, 1820; second and third verses by Ernst Gebhard Anschutz, 1824. Other verses: unknown.

Okay, so here we have verses 1, 2 and 3 that are not original. What do they say about God?

1. O Christmas Tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy leaves are green forever.
O Christmas Tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy beauty leaves thee never.
Thy leaves are green in summer’s prime,
Thy leaves are green at Christmas time.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy leaves are green forever.

2. O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
For every year the Christmas tree,
Brings to us all both joy and glee.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

3. O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!
Each bough doth hold its tiny light,
That makes each toy to sparkle bright.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

If you said nothing you win a prize. The satisfaction that it is self-evident what is being talked about. Next, we move to "author unknown":

"4. O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
Thou tree most fair and lovely!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
Thou tree most fair and lovely!
Thou dost proclaim the Savior’s birth,
Good will to men and peace on earth.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
Thou tree most fair and lovely.

5. O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
Thou has a wondrous message:
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
Thou has a wondrous message:
Thou dost proclaim the Savior’s birth
Good will to men and peace on earth.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
Thou has a wondrous message:"

What does the above say about God? Proclamation of the Son's birth.

www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com...

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
as I recall the legends He (Jesus) was supposed to be the result of a spook shaggin an
unmarried virgin.

That's the second time I've heard you use that "analogy". Is the humanization of what others consider sacred self-entertaining? Does it give you a little giggle? If not, you may wish to re-think the effect of your casual disregard for others.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Saint4God, He is of all and in all.... he is everything around you...

Hehe, no.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
You should understand Saint4God that those who really know God and understand him, see 'him' in all things...

Do you see God in evil?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
and it would appear to someone who is ignorant of God that they are foolishly worshipping false idols...

I agree that those who are ignorant of God can worship false idols. Is there a topical point you'd like to make?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
The whole problem comes from giving people the idea, that certain objects are unique to Gods presence... when in reality all objects are unique to Gods presence..

because reality IS Gods Presence.. Without it. reality ceases to exist. It is Life, eternal and never ending... a book ends... a cross decays... a people dies, a food rots, a metal rusts or breaks down... a tree dies.... but before it dies it is a representation of the presence of God.

Can you tell me when the sermon is over? I've got some work I'd like to get done.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Saint4God, you and I don't get a long very well...

That's okay, it's not required. But, know that it's not me who is unwilling to get along.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
verbally.. but I assum if we were to sit down and hash out our differences we would realize we are saying the same thing,

Nope.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
even though we're seeing it from different angles.. thats the beauty of God, he presents himself to all, in a familiar way to them. and we HAVE to accept God's methods and leave others relationships with him their own... Even people who don't believe in God associate, speak and listen to God. he simply hides his nature (hides his face from those who don't believe.. because he understands we can only see in what we believe... therefore he shews us himself in phenomenon that we already believe to open our minds to understanding his true essence.

Okay, what does this speech have to do with the topic?

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
(siiiiiiggghhh) How come every time I read one of Saint4gods's threads it gives me a huge headache.

I don't know. But I do know that critical thinking can cause them so there's that hope.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
This thread should be called," Numerous Points Presented That Show Pagan Roots to Modern Christmas that Saint4god Refuses to Discuss Because He is Full of BLIND FAITH."

No, my thread should read as is, or perhaps "One example of a hymn turned secular". Only one point was intended to be discussed. How do you know whether or not my faith is blind? I submit that you do not since you've made this blind accusation.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
What does blind faith mean?

If you don't know, I don't think I could do an adequate job of explaining.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
In this case its Simply the inability to see the merit of historical facts as they pertain to a SONG?

We're here to discuss historical fact. Got any?

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
You accuse people of going off topic any time you are confronted with an excellent point that you cannot contend with.

Nay, I've contended with them on OTHER threads. This thread is intentionally narrow, not broad.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
Simple, just refuse to discuss anything you cannot refute, and you cannot ever be proven wrong.

This is a blind faith of yours. If you've bothered to read my posts on other threads, you'd see where I was refuted and in some cases proven wrong. I'm open to that here, in which case the thread can be closed and deleted. After all, I'm here to deny ignorance just like other seekers of the truth.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
What a silly way to debate.

What an egotistical statement.

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
I'm not going to read your relevance free threads any longer blind one.

It is your right, but may not be truth seeking to do so.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by mulberryblueshimmer
Does it, in all honesty, really matter if some words are changed in a song?

It's just a christmas carol.

If the lyrics change from a Christian hymn to tree worshipping, I think so. And, I'd say others who are believers should choose the lyrics that do maintain a course of following God's Word.

Originally posted by Everlasting England
I would like to go off topic and mention...

That's fine, just don't expect me to respond at great length. I've already discussed this on a more appropriate thread.

Originally posted by mr cryptoman
saint4god thers nothing wrong withchanging the words in a christmas song

For you that may be the case. For those who believe in God, it is a serious matter of great consideration as God has made it clear He does not approve of worshipping trees (or other idols).

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
im an atheist and i celebrate christmas but just not for the reasons you do

Understood.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Saint4God, He is of all and in all.... he is everything around you...

Hehe,

no.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
You should understand Saint4God that those who really know God and understand him, see 'him' in all things...

Do you see God in evil?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
and it would appear to someone who is ignorant of God that they are foolishly worshipping false idols...

I agree that those who are ignorant of God can worship false idols. Is there a topical point you'd like to make?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
The whole problem comes from giving people the idea, that certain objects are unique to Gods presence... when in reality all objects are unique to Gods presence..

because reality IS Gods Presence.. Without it. reality ceases to exist. It is Life, eternal and never ending... a book ends... a cross decays... a people dies, a food rots, a metal rusts or breaks down... a tree dies.... but before it dies it is a representation of the presence of God.

Can you tell me when the sermon is over? I've got some work I'd like to get done.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Saint4God, you and I don't get a long very well...

That's okay, it's not required. But, know that it's not me who is unwilling to get along.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
verbally.. but I assum if we were to sit down and hash out our differences we would realize we are saying the same thing,

Nope.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
even though we're seeing it from different angles.. thats the beauty of God, he presents himself to all, in a familiar way to them. and we HAVE to accept God's methods and leave others relationships with him their own... Even people who don't believe in God associate, speak and listen to God. he simply hides his nature (hides his face from those who don't believe.. because he understands we can only see in what we believe... therefore he shews us himself in phenomenon that we already believe to open our minds to understanding his true essence.

Okay, what does this speech have to do with the topic?

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

I totally give up on you... you are no saint... you are not from allah, you come on your own accord. I can sense you are a very frustrated individual...
You don't even try to understand what I say... not even a slight attempt.. you say you cannot see Allah in Evil... tis funny... Jesus came specifically to help those who were 'evil' ... because he saw the good in them .. .

Originally posted by saint4God
This is a blind faith of yours. If you've bothered to read my posts on other threads, you'd see where I was refuted and in some cases proven wrong. I'm open to that here, in which case the thread can be closed and deleted. After all, I'm here to deny ignorance just like other seekers of the truth.
[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

As a fellow Christian, I fully respect your unwavering and unrelentless show of faith, however you can't deny ignorance if you refuse to do some research. You ignore a lot of very relevant statements and come off as sounding very self-righteous. Please do take some time to do some thorough research in to the history of things. I don't feel that a lot of mainstream Christian churches really teach Christianity the way is was intended to be. It doesn't hurt to question things. It only hurts to neglect a part of your faith that you may be missing out on. God be with you!

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
I totally give up on you...

Okay, what were you trying for?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
you are no saint...

You are not my judge nor commissioner.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
you are not from allah,

Not the one from the Q'uran, I'm sure.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
you come on your own accord.

This is incorrect.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
I can sense you are a very frustrated individual...

Try your psychic skills again, they seem to be failing you yet again.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
You don't even try to understand what I say... not even a slight attempt..

So far still falling short of "mind reader".

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
you say you cannot see Allah in Evil... tis funny...

Why?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Jesus came specifically to help those who were 'evil' ... because he saw the good in them .. .

I'd love to talk more about Christ. There is a topic that we should return to though, as there are many threads we can use to talk about Jesus. Indeed Jesus did come to help the sinner, not because he wanted them to glorify themselves but so that he could die for them to pay the penalty for their sins so that those who did believe could have eternal life.

Back to the topic then?

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by closettrekkie
As a fellow Christian, I fully respect your unwavering and unrelentless show of faith,

Thank you but it's pointless to be unwavering and unrelentless, I'm not here to do that nor is any interested in how strong a person's faith is. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
however you can't deny ignorance if you refuse to do some research.

Totally agree and glad I have. I did not claim to have years of research on this hymn and can simply and easily be proven wrong if the facts are present demonstrating such. Perhaps it is worthy of investigation to determine if there are other hymnjackings going on and other related take-overs. I notice when people sneeze, others say "bless you" not "God bless you". Ever wonder why? I know I got caught in secularization a time or two. By being aware of it, I can correct the incorrect habit and say "God bless you" without fear of retaliation or long dissertations of unrelated things.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
You ignore a lot of very relevant statements

Such as?

Originally posted by closettrekkie
and come off as sounding very self-righteous.

I apologize for sounding this way. Self-righteousness is neither my intent, claim, nor is it the truth.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
Please do take some time to do some thorough research in to the history of things.

If my existing research is flawed, I welcome new evidence. I did not open a thread about the origin of the christmas tree, nor santa, nor all the other unrelated topics that have been brought up here. If anything, it further demonstrates a tactic (although a familiar and uninteresting one) utilized upon those who profess faith in Christ. Shiver me timbers, lo and behold, a conspiracy? If one reads enough threads around here, a "united front" to tear down becomes more apparent.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
I don't feel that a lot of mainstream Christian churches really teach Christianity the way is was intended to be. It doesn't hurt to question things. It only hurts to neglect a part of your faith that you may be missing out on. God be with you!

I think churches tend to be the closest institution you'll find on planet earth, second to reading the Book itself, which is second to having a one-on-one relationship with God. God bless you as well and thanks for the criticism, it helps me analyse another point of view.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

I apologize for coming off as aggressive in my last post about this, but it is on topic. It's not about the song in question, but I did mention the song "Deck the Halls". How do you feel about that song? It is a Christmas song, is it not?

Originally posted by closettrekkie
I apologize for coming off as aggressive in my last post about this, but it is on topic.

No worries, feel free to test my metal so long as you don't mind me doing the same. It's how we get stronger, I believe. I severely doubt you'd be on ATS as a believer, yet be weak in faith and subject to the social tides. Hopefully that came across as a compliment .

Originally posted by closettrekkie
It's not about the song in question, but I did mention the song "Deck the Halls". How do you feel about that song? It is a Christmas song, is it not?

I apologize, I thought this question was meant for someone else. Lemme have a look see.

Deck the Halls!
The music to Deck the Halls is believed to Welsh in origin and was reputed to have come from a tune called "Nos Galan" dating back to the sixteenth century. In the eighteenth century Mozart used the tune to Deck the Halls for a violin and piano duet J.P. McCaskey is sometimes credited with the lyrics of Deck the Halls but he only edited the Franklin Square Song Collection in which the lyrics were first published. The first publication date of Deck the Halls is 1881. The author is unknown but the words are said to originate in America.

www.carols.org.uk...

This lyric here has me thinking World of Warcraft, "Troll the ancient Yule tide carol"

Sorry sorry, I'll get back to being serious. Lots of "Yule" stuff. Not a hymn as far as I know, nor show any evidence that it was once a hymn. Looks to me once secular and still secular. What am I missing?

Originally posted by saint4God
If the lyrics change from a Christian hymn to tree worshipping, I think so. And, I'd say others who are believers should choose the lyrics that do maintain a course of following God's Word.

Although I believe that the use of an evergreen on winter solstice heralds back even further than St Boniface and into ancient pagan Rome, I would like to present this snippet I found Googling the song itself.

www.thehistoryof.net...

It’s no surprise that the famous Christmas carol, “Oh Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree” was translated from the German original because it was in Germany that the idea of a Christmas tree was born. It happened back in the early 700s, when St. Boniface, an English monk and missionary, was preaching a sermon on the December 25th Nativity to some Germanic Druids.

In order to quell the Druids’ idolatry of the oak tree, St. Boniface cut down a huge one. As it came crashing down, it crushed every bush in its path, except for one small fir sapling. Although this was purely a coincidence, St. Boniface cleverly decided to capitalize on it – he declared it a miracle that this one single sapling hadn’t been killed, and concluded, “Let this be called the tree of the Christ Child.”

To preChristian pagans, as today, trees hold a great deal of meaning.

It's well known that its undying nature through the winter months was held in symbolic esteem. When all other trees shed their leaves, they stand alone in their verdant greenery. Incidentally, I can't really envision Christmas without mistletoe.

No matter about the changes of the song, imo. The old lyrics will be retained by those who care, new ones adopted by others, but the true meaning of winter solstice or the birth of baby Jesus is a festivity we can all share in our own ways.

It holds within it a glimmer of hope and rebirth, no matter what religion or politics attempts to glean from it.