O Christmas Tree rewritten as pagan.

Originally posted by saint4God
I know I'm not going to by hijacked by pagan secularisms.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]

You mean you wouldn't want somebody to take the words to a song that you hold close to you? Kind of like someone taking the exact dates and symbols of holidays, and telling people they are important dates for another religion. It's a good idea they have really... I mean if they take the words of the song, take all the Christian parts out of it and leave other parts then people might really start thinking it's a pagan song. This could really become a big thing. I think that you should let everyone know! Stop this madness!

Styki

Ironic because the whole Christmas tree thing has its origons purely from pagan european sources. So it moves back and forth, people can change religons but deep down the culture doesn't realy change.

And even though its a Pagan melody, it still calls it a Christmas tree, and not a yule or wintertime tree. To much effort I guess to change the actual name.

People do not ask "what holiday do you celebrate during winter" they would more likely ask "what holiday do you practice durring Christmas". I would and do too, doesn't realy make much difference, names don't realy mean if they eccentualy mean the same thing.

Not that Christanity spreading to europe is the olny monotheisum to absorb local pagan traditions into religon and culture. Islam did it too with the whole holy month and making pilgramages to mecca, some other stuff too.

More ironey is that that which is Pagan, Wiccan or whatever in speech things are inserted like thou, thy, doth. Old english speach things, which are often contained in the bible or from times when people were pretty much purely zealous Christians, and not much else.

"thou art God" "God made man in thy image"

Not just speaking of that carol, seriously whats with that. In my oppinion its one of those wierd traditions that don't realy serve much of a perpose. If you want to comunicate something weither religous or not allways speak in as clear modern english as posiable (or whatever other language is one your most fluent in).

Messages of the devine beyond (God) should allways be as clear and normal as posiable. Though thats just my oppinion.

I like Christmas time, it is one of the few times you actually see people smiling and been a little courteous to each other, and that is good enough for me.

And yes I know it also means a lot of hardship for others too, but there is a lot more giving to the needy at Christmas too.

Regardless of what religion you nail your colours too, or whatever carol you sing, just enjoy it for whatever and whichever way Christmas means to you and your family and friends.

Long live Christmas in all of it's forms

(No reindeer were harmed during the production of this post)

Four things.

1. May I bring to your attention
   (although someone already mentioned this) that nowhere in the Holy Bible, no matter what translation, we find any appeal for celebrating the birth of Yeheshua Ben Yussuf, the anointed and designated King of the whole universe. Au contraire: about what occasion did he say "This do in remembrance of me"? You guess it: Luke 22:19, it's the 14th of Nisan, mostly somwhere in March/April, at full moon.
   
   Also, please note that only two birthdays are mentioned the Holy Scriptures. The first is that of the Pharao of Egypt: Joseph's cellmate is killed. The second is Herod's birthday. You know, that party with John the Baptist's head on a silver platter.
   
   (yes, I am a former Jehovah's Witnesses' child)
   
   
2. I apologize, saint4god, when I'm off topic! but:
   Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
   how green your leaves are!
   you're not greening in the summertime only
   no, also in winter, when it's snowing
   Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
   how green your leaves are!
   
   Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
   you can please me very much!
   How often has not at christmas time
   a tree of yours delighted me.
   Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
   you can please me very much!
   
   Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
   your garment wishes to teach me something:
   Hope and persistance
   gives solace and strength at any time
   Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
   your garment wishes to teach me something.
   
   word by word translation from the german original. Maybe or not that it can help at some later point of the discussion.
   
   I'm quite proud of it (the translation). One could argue that it sounds a bit... nordic/germanic. The text, I mean. Especially the last verse (strength, hope, endurance, you know what I mean) that was swapped in the original english version to "candlelight shine so bright" (which isn't mentioned at all in the German version) and "God has decked thee, thou bidst us true and faithful be, and trust in God unchanchingly." The original has no reference to god and only one to "christmas time" ("Weihnachtszeit", which could once have been anything really). Even "with the stroke of a pagan pen" there are more references to christmas-specific topics like candles and toys than in the German lyrics.
   
   
3. What is the meaning of the fir tree and the last verse?
   Imagine you live in a time and in a part of the world where the winters are rough and cold. All life comes to a halt. The trees drop their leaves and look like black skeletons. Everything around you is covered under a thick blanket of white stuff. The world becomes silent. Almost all singing birds are gone. You're left with the wolves. Night grows into the day. Everything around you has lost its color and is black, white and grey. You become depressive. You feel cold when you're outside. It's like it's never going to end. Then you see a fir tree. It is green. You feel comforted. The tree is alive, and standing tall and strong. Spring will come. That's what the song is about, not about a newborn child that is going to save the day.
   
   
4. I hate christmas time.
   *sings madly* Laaast christmas I gave you my heart / jingle all the way / all is calm, all is bright / Not only in the summertime... *curtain*
   

[edit on 6-10-2006 by Akareyon]

Right on Wolfie! I've always really enjoyed Christmas for a number of reasons. I like snow, getting together with family, the music . . . and there just seems to be a special feeling in the air during that time of year. After all, Christmas is the time people are reminded of peace and good will toward men (and women . . . what's up ladies?) so what better time to forget our differences and celebrate together?

As far as the origin of the Christmas tree, a lot of people have posted scenarios, but I've read about one which I haven't seen yet so I'll add it to the list:

In Phrygia there existed a remarkable school of religious philosophy which centered around the life and untimely fate of another Savior-God known as Atys, or Attis, by many considered synonymous with Adonis. This deity was born at midnight on the 24th day of December. Of his death there are two accounts. In one he was gored to death like Adonis; in the other he emasculated himself under a pine tree and there died. His body was taken to a cave by the Great Mother (Cybele), where it remained through the ages without decaying. To the rites of Atys the modern world is indebted for the symbolism of the Christmas tree. Atys imparted his immortality to the tree beneath which he died, and Cybele took the tree with her when she removed the body. Atys remained three days in the tomb, rose upon a date corresponding with Easter morn, and by this resurrection overcame death for all who were initiated into his Mysteries.

-excerpt from The Secret Teachings of All Ages

If this is so, then you can easily see why Christians would have adopted the holiday along with the tree to celebrate Jesus' birth. This would have been an effective way of relating their belief in Christ as the savior of the world to the pagans. Of course, I'm not sure if this is the official earliest form of the Christmas tree, but I thought it would be interesting to share with everyone.

Warning: off-topic tangent - If you think about it, many religions reference trees in one way or another. Judaism/Christianity has the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Buddha is thought to have achieved enlightenment under a Bodhi tree, the Kabbalah has the Sephirothic Tree, and the World Tree is a popular concept in several mythologies/religions. End tangent

Finally, in reference to the lyrical alteration of "O, Christmas Tree" - personally, I don't really place too much importance on things like this. Everyone has the right to choose what to believe and can therefore choose how they will sing the song. If someone alters the song and claims that its the "official" version, it has no bearing on my personal beliefs and I can continue to sing the song however I want. If this kind of thing went to the extreme though, I would be upset because some of my favorite Christmas songs are the ones which reference Jesus, such as "O Holy Night" and "Silent Night". I hope we never go that far into political correctness because it would be a shame not to hear those songs on the radio around Christmas time.

saint4god, why are you so offended by Paganism? Why are most Christians? If you are of European decent Pagan is you ansestors religion. christianity is a middle eastern religion. Why have we let a religion that was started by another culture take our European religion over. I for one am very proud of the complex Pagan rituals that have come from so many years of trial and error.

Be proud that our holidays have Pagan roots, and not middle eastern roots. I for one am a proud Kelt, and will not let some foriegn religion dictate what my beliefs are.

Its a full moon, I have to go do my Pagan thing!

I for one loved the story and mystery of Santa Claus when I was a kid.
It made Christmas fun (when the Jesus story was taught and there for me, but much harder to grasp). Kids will be kids. We loved our toys, didn't we? I know I did.

My question?
How many people here were traumatized when they found out Santa wasn't real? I know I wasn't. I know I didn't perceive it as this "terrible lie" that instilled hatred and untrust for my parents. When I found out the truth about Santa "it was cool", you know, "Hey, I'm a big kid now....I know about Santa." *wink, wink*

I truly think Jesus wants us to celebrate and be happy when we celebrate His birthday. I can't see it being a glum thing in heaven. I can't see God up there saying, "There will be no celebrating. Take that beautifully lit tree down, stop singing those holy songs, don't you dare give your friend a present, we're all eating bread and water today, stop enjoying yourselves......

...no, that attitude sounds more like Ebenezer Scrooge to me.

[edit on 7-10-2006 by mirror2U]

Another translation of the 1824 German song appears at:

german.about.com...

It is extremely close to numerous German language and translated versions that I have seen over a lifetime, including hymnals at church.

The ONLY religious content was the reference to Christmas season or time (Weinachtzeit)

"Tannenbaum" is literally translated as a fir or linden tree.

More info also at:
www.vistawide.com...

Originally posted by saint4God
There's a movement (conspiracy?) to make Christian things non-Christian. Here's one example.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]

I found this interesting, having studied a few years of German, most of which I've since forgotten. I have learned O Tannenbaum (the german song from which O Christmas Tree originated) and I don't remember there being any reference to god in the song.

I did a little internet search and most of the variations I could find do not include any reference to god or any "christian based" beliefs. Just a simple song about a pretty christmas tree.

Based on your link to your lyrics, I believe they changed them to include a reference to god since it is from a "caroling" website ... all the other carols I scanned through were religious. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them changing the song to reference god but I think that explains the discrepancy you've noted ... not a pagan conspiracy to derail christmas.

WikiPedia -- link on history of O Tannenbaum

Another link on history of O Tannenbaum

About.com -- O Tannenbaum page

Christ was not son of a Yule log,

as I recall the legends He (Jesus) was supposed to be the result of a spook shaggin an
unmarried virgin.

Christians started observing Yule as Christ's b-day so that pagans would convert to Christianity .
It was a consolidated date, this we we're pretty well familiar with.

Yep another gift of Constantine, along with the day of worship. It was during the reign
of Constantine that christianity changed from worshipping on the Jewish Sabbath to
worshipping on " The Venerable Day of the Sun." It was also at this time the celebration of the birth of Jeshua was changed from 6 Jan. to 25 Dec. the birth of Novus Invictus. Prior to the 6Jan . date it was celebrated on 17 Sept. as I recall.

The German word for Christmas tree is Tannenbaum, which means fir tree in German.

I also find it interesting that as a child in grade school I learned O Tannenbaum and Silent Night in German long before I did in english.

Perhaps some here remember the story of how the evergreen became the evergreen?

It has nothing to do with TREE worship..

even in 'Paganism' they are still worshipping the one God.... they just realize that God is in everything, and they assign it different names and characteristics....

CHRIST-mas is the MASS of LOVE.... Of acceptance of all things... (even 'pagan' things) (or for the muslims, the unbeliever things) ...

Christmas is a observation of a reality understood years ago.. the reality of the spirit.

and the realization of the spirit in all things... in nature and in thought....

The Shaman in Siberia noticed the animals eating certain things in the forest and mimmicked them, ingesting the amanita muscaria, which is a very 'gnostic experience creating' drug.... it makes one directly aware of nature, the spirit, intent and God.

I could 'worship' a block of wood... but as long as I'm actually seeing the characterisitics of the 'real' God.. the 'One' God... I am still worshipping God...

Saint4God, He is of all and in all.... he is everything around you... unless you ignore his essence in that which you are observing... Like right now, I'm choosing to not see the truth in your words and am choosing to give you the same truth you yourself are giving.

I.e... I understand your talking about people who aren't understanding the nature of God.... but yet I still think you are stopping yourself from understanding the nature of God yourself. Not that you don't know 'GOD' ... just that you are stereotyping him, like a store clerk does to some punk coming in his store wearing a hoody...
People deny much that is from God and is God... because one ignores God in that which they don't understand... To understand all is to understand God is in all and of all...

You should understand Saint4God that those who really know God and understand him, see 'him' in all things... and it would appear to someone who is ignorant of God that they are foolishly worshipping false idols...

The whole problem comes from giving people the idea, that certain objects are unique to Gods presence... when in reality all objects are unique to Gods presence..

because reality IS Gods Presence.. Without it. reality ceases to exist. It is Life, eternal and never ending... a book ends... a cross decays... a people dies, a food rots, a metal rusts or breaks down... a tree dies.... but before it dies it is a representation of the presence of God.

Saint4God, you and I don't get a long very well... verbally.. but I assum if we were to sit down and hash out our differences we would realize we are saying the same thing, even though we're seeing it from different angles.. thats the beauty of God, he presents himself to all, in a familiar way to them. and we HAVE to accept God's methods and leave others relationships with him their own... Even people who don't believe in God associate, speak and listen to God. he simply hides his nature (hides his face from those who don't believe.. because he understands we can only see in what we believe... therefore he shews us himself in phenomenon that we already believe to open our minds to understanding his true essence.

[edit on 10/7/2006 by PuRe EnErGy]

(siiiiiiggghhh) How come every time I read one of Saint4gods's threads it gives me a huge headache.
This thread should be called," Numerous Points Presented That Show Pagan Roots to Modern Christmas that Saint4god Refuses to Discuss Because He is Full of BLIND FAITH."
What does blind faith mean? In this case its Simply the inability to see the merit of historical facts as they pertain to a SONG? You accuse people of going off topic any time you are confronted with an excellent point that you cannot contend with. Simple, just refuse to discuss anything you cannot refute, and you cannot ever be proven wrong. What a silly way to debate. I'm not going to read your relevance free threads any longer blind one.

Does it, in all honesty, really matter if some words are changed in a song?


It's just a christmas carol.

meh, what's it matter anyways?
christians have been rewriting pagan songs for aeons.

I would like to go off topic and mention the god Mithras.

He was Persian God & was killed to make atonement for mankind, and to take away the sins of the world. He was born on the twenty-fifth day of December, and crucified on a tree.

The celts used to belive that there dead ansestors came back to the earth on what we call christmas eve and they would leave food out for them....kinda like leaving cookies and brandy out for santa which is something i used to enjoy doing as a child.

I have to agree with everyone else that the christmas tree is a pagan praticse that was adopted from german culture's.

But yes like what a number of people have said already enjoy christmas for what it is a time for family and friends.

saint4god thers nothing wrong withchanging the words in a christmas song im an atheist and i celebrate christmas but just not for the reasons you do

Originally posted by closettrekkie
I never lied to my daughter and told her there was a Santa. Didn't want to start out her life lying to her.

I think this is a good thing. There are plenty of people in the world who will lie to her (the same true for my child). If she can trust you as a source of truth, then she will never be devoid of a counselor of wisdom.

"Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it." - Proverb 22:6

"The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception." - Proverb 14:8

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
What " christmas elements " are actually christian ?

WELL ?

the only one which springs to mind is ............

christmas cards [ origin 19th century UK ]

any others - which were exclusivly developed by christians , FOR christmas ?

This is a good question and is exactly the kind of critical thinking we all need to do as believers. Rather than answer with my individual assessments, I think it should be seriously considered by all of us.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Gott is god, of course. The title of the song, however, is Tannenbaum. Fir Tree. What exactly is your objective here?

Stated plainly, as in the initial post.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Legends. Things men made up.

Could be, neither of us know.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
In the bible, I see no reference to Christs Birth and fir trees, holly, ect (probably because these things were not native to the area). In fact, I see no association with Christs Birth and wintertime. Especially around the time of the winter solstice.

No one knows, as no date were given. I do believe though that the birth of Christ is worthy of celebration. Much moreso than candy-highs and green beer.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I also see in the bible no commands or requests to celebrate OR remember his birth. In fact, the only thing Christ commanded his followers to do in rememberance is the Last Supper, the consuming of bread and wine in rememberance of his sacrifice.

We do that too. I assert that believers should be celebrating every day of life eternal. Christ also celebrated at a wedding but did not command it to be so.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Yet you yourself have stated the date Christmas is celebrated on is a pagan rip off.

I have stated it was a consolidated date, not "is a pagan rip off." Please stay to your notes.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
To appease the townsfolk, who already had a pagan celebration

That I did say, based on sources that assert such.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
(birth of the sun, birth of a god, birth of a king,..hmmmmmmmmmmmm) on that day. There was no original Christian celebration of Christmas in the early days of the church. Probably because it was not a virtue or part of the original Christian faith.

Appartently there was celebration, just not during this date. Can't consolidate that which you do not have two parts for.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Customs adopted later for Christmas were adopted from former pagan traditions.

This unsubstantiated claim as yet to be given credence in truth.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The evergreen tree at the celebration of Yule as a symbol of everlasting life long pre-dated Christianity, as well as the custom of decorating and sacrificing to these trees. This was because evergreen trees, unlike other plants, survived the bitter cold and snows of the winter with their leaves intact. Thus, the ancients thought of it as having magical powers or spirits that could resist death itself. Holly, gift giving, feasting, celebrations, are other customs that are done at Christmas that are taken from Pagan customs.

What does this have to do with changing the lyrics of the song?

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The only thing that changed was the gods that the winter holidays were dedicated to.

To some people this may be the case, though wouldn't venture to say any who believed in either God or other gods would agree.