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Originally posted by Seekerof
Originally posted by soficrow
What is truth?
Depends upon who you ask, Sofi.
Originally posted by St Udio
true or not is just one important point, its also the journey, discovery, and the sharing the myth which may lead to each individuals growth & their personal views & values in life.
[whoa...that sounded weird]
so i'm adding imho
Originally posted by Wildbob77
I think that ancient legends may be stories from the far past that are based in some reality.
Hence we have floods that covered the entire earth... Where is all that water now?
Originally posted by soficrow
1. I am NOT claiming that Gilgamesh rebuilt human civilization. I am saying that his own record makes the claim.
Gilgamesh and Fu Hsi: Similarities
1. Both were human-God hybrids according to the myths, and kings in their time.
2. Both ruled after a mythical flood.
3. Both were responsible for re-building human civilization.
Agreed, and obviously, Uruk is not the whole of civilization.
I'm just saying Gilgamesh spun it that way.
First Dynasty of Uruk
Mesh-ki-ang-gasher of E-ana, son of Utu: 324 years.
Mesh-ki-ang-gasher went into the Sea and disappeared.
Enmerkar, who built Unug: 420 years
Lugalbanda of Unug, the shepherd: 1200 years
Dumuzid of Unug, the fisherman: 100 years. Captured En-Me-Barage-Si of Kish.
Gilgamesh, whose father was a "phantom", lord of Kulaba: 126 years.
Ur-Nungal of Unug: 30 years
Udul-Kalama of Unug: 15 years
La-Ba'shum of Unug: 9 years
En-Nun-Tarah-Ana of Unug: 8 years
Mesh-He of Unug: 36 years
Melem-Ana of Unug: 6 years
Lugal-Kitun of Unug: 36 years
Gilgamesh is awesome to perfection.
It was he who opened the mountain passes,
who dug wells on the flank of the mountain.
It was he who crossed the ocean, the vast seas, to the rising sun,
who explored the world regions, seeking life.
It was he who reached by his own sheer strength
Utanapishtim, the Faraway,
who restored the sanctuaries (or: cities) that the Flood had destroyed!
... for teeming mankind.
In my reading - Gilgamesh gives Utanapishtim/Noah credit for saving humanity/ repopulating the earth, but he (Gilgamesh) takes credit for himself for "opening the mountain passes," digging "wells on the flank of the mountain," exploring "the world regions, seeking life," and (thus) for restoring civilization.
The Epic Of Gilgamesh and contemporary tales of those times unfortunately are the turds in the punchbowl of scholars who have their reputations built on the accepted accounts of the way history has allegedy unfolded. Questions create problems.
The Epic of Gilgamesh
Tablet I
He who has seen everything, I will make known (?) to the lands.
I will teach (?) about him who experienced all things,
... alike,
Anu granted him the totality of knowledge of all.
He saw the Secret, discovered the Hidden,
he brought information of (the time) before the Flood.
He went on a distant journey, pushing himself to exhaustion,
but then was brought to peace.
He carved on a stone stela all of his toils,
and built the wall of Uruk-Haven,
the wall of the sacred Eanna Temple, the holy sanctuary.
Look at its wall which gleams like copper(?),
inspect its inner wall, the likes of which no one can equal!
Take hold of the threshold stone--it dates from ancient times!
Go close to the Eanna Temple, the residence of Ishtar,
such as no later king or man ever equaled!
Go up on the wall of Uruk and walk around,
examine its foundation, inspect its brickwork thoroughly.
Is not (even the core of) the brick structure made of kiln-fired brick,
and did not the Seven Sages themselves lay out its plans?
One league city, one league palm gardens, one league lowlands, the open area(?) of the Ishtar Temple,
three leagues and the open area(?) of Uruk it (the wall) encloses.
So in light of the question "Are myths true?" the answer might be, it depends on your perspective. For example, if Uruk was a real city built by an actual person named Gilgamesh (or Bilgamesh), then the people of Uruk might have perceived that he did, indeed, rebuild human civilization.
Hey 23432,
If Bilgamesh was actually Turkish, what are the implications?
.
Originally posted by 23432
It would be interesting to knit together an anatolian and central asian myth ; or even a mesopotamian one too .
It may create something which is greater then sum of all it's parts .
Originally posted by soficrow
Hmmm.
Again, I am not claiming that Gilgamesh rebuilt human civilization - I am synopsizing the claims made in the Epic/stories. ie., From a local perspective, building Uruk was tantamount to rebuilding civilization. In film, it's called a POV (point of view).
Odd that the distinction seems so difficult for so many to grasp.
Originally posted by soficrow
Records have been suppressed/repressed, and extant interpretations are designed to support the current paradigm and political-economic powers
Gilgamesh ruled hard over his subjects, pushed them to produce and serve a (modern) 'industrial-economic' system, and left behind a lapis lazuli tablet celebrating himself and his life.
"For Gilgamesh, son on Ninsun they weighed out their offerings.....for Gilgamesh....heart of Uruk......O Gilgamesh, lord of Kullab, great is thy praise.."
Originally posted by EdenKaia
Gilgamesh ruled hard over his subjects, pushed them to produce and serve a (modern) 'industrial-economic' system, and left behind a lapis lazuli tablet celebrating himself and his life.
...in the second half of his rule, you would see that Gilgamesh was beloved by his people,
Here, from the final chapters:
"For Gilgamesh, son on Ninsun they weighed out their offerings.....for Gilgamesh....heart of Uruk......O Gilgamesh, lord of Kullab, great is thy praise.."
...whom he had also made economically and spiritually independent.
Originally posted by soficrow
Predictable, given that Galgamesh exiled all who did not produce, or think(?) according to the demands of his rule.
Only within the context of a "civilized" industrial-economic system. If then.
An extremely narrow perspective imo.
Originally posted by Marduk
okay soficrow so what is it that you have against Gilgamesh exactly
did he pee in your beer ?
What constrained the proliferation of the Bronze Age, however, was lack of fuel, just like our current crisis. Richard Cowen describes the situation well in his essay on the Bronze Age:
...perhaps the most famous documentation of the shortage of wood around the ancient Mediterranean is the Epic of Gilgamesh ... Stripped of sex and violence, the Gilgamesh epic is about deforestation. Gilgamesh and his companion go off to cut down a cedar forest, braving the wrath of the forest god Humbaba, who has been entrusted with forest conservation. It's interesting that Gilgamesh is cast as the hero, even though he has the typical logger mentality: cut it down, and never mind the consequences. The repercussions for Gilgamesh are severe: he loses his chance of immortality, for example. But the consequences for Sumeria were even worse. It's clear that the geography and climate of southern Mesopotamia would not provide the wood fuel to support a Bronze Age civilization that worked metal, built large cities, and constructed canals and ceremonial centers that used wood, plaster, and bricks. ...The loss of Gilgamesh's immortality may be a literary reflection of the realization that Sumeria could not be sustained.