U.S. Army Practices Urban War Inside U.S.A.

I'm glad to hear that you feel that way, Damocles. I don't think that anyone who has posted in this thread thinks that the entire army will act like robots. I'm not sure that anyone can predict what the desertion rate would be under a worst case scenario, but, that rate of desertion may not be high enough to prevent what we fear most.

If and when the government does give the order ot deploy Federal troops to break up a civil disturbance, we should expect to see the case made to them in as legalistic a means as possible. I'm happy to say that this is still a hypothetical situation, but, those of us who have been around the military have known both men and women who would follow any order that they themselves considered lawful. Even if they didn't like it.

It's possible that soldiers of the future who are deployed on home soil may believe that they are saving us from ourselves.

[edit on 2-10-2006 by Shar]

I think the worse threat is not the US army used in a civil disturbance (which I STILL fail to see the problem with, if it's severe enough), but corporate forces. The following is a fictional theory about how something might happen (from the Shadowrun universe), but it's interesting enough:

1999: The Seretech Decision

* A 3-month truckers' strike causes food riots in New York.
* A Seretech truck hauling infectious medical wastes on Staten Island, is attacked by a mob in the mistaken belief that it carries food. Seretech security forces use lethal force to protect it. 20 Seretech employees and 200 rioters are killed.
* The Supreme Court upholds Seretech's actions as responsible for saving thousands of lives, rather than costing hundreds.

A trucker's strike- especially one based on border security issues mauling commercial interests- is a potential pitfall. What happens when food doesn't arrive? The riots WOULD be bad enough to warrant the Army, but if they aren't deployed due to the Posse COmitatus act, well...people and bussinesses will take it upon themselves to protect themselves. A decision similar to the above opens up a whole mess if it supports the right of bussinesses to use lethal force to defend themselves. Building on that:

The Shiawase court decision establishes extraterritoriality for megacorps when a radical eco-group called TerraFirst! attacked a Shiawase nuclear power plant. Though the attack was repelled, the corporation used the incident to convince the Supreme Court that major multinational corporations need the ability to protect themselves. To this end, the Supreme Court granted major companies extraterritoriality.

(both excerpts from: en.wikipedia.org... )

Now THAT is scary.

DE

theres a key issue i think some may have overlooked...

the govt already has, and has had for a long long time, a way around posse comatatus.

its called the national guard. us army soldiers who, in addition to answering to the federal govt, also answer to the state govt.

now, does anyone really think if the feds want something handled by troops it would be out of the realm of possibility to just pick up the phone and dial the state governor?

been in place for years, not much new, not much to worry about.

but thats just me, my threshold to personally be paranoid, or even overly concerned today is very low.

long as the 1st and 2nd are still in place, i feel pretty safe overall.

but having been a soldier for 12 years, not like they couldnt find me pretty easy if the defication should happen to hit the oscilation.

Also, a lot of people here seems to forget about the mercenaries. There is about 25.000 mercenaries in Iraq, they could do the same in USA to assist the army into controlling ``domestic terrorists``.

Originally posted by Damocles
so, 100 million gun owners vs less than 4 million in the standing army. (again, someone feel free to correct me if im way off but lets not quibble over small discrepancies or semantics) not to mention that once the boys/girls in uniform decide taht their orders are BS do u think they're gonna give their guns back before the head out?

How did Hitler seize power?

INWT,

heh, interesting point. my recollection of history may be way off this morning. (trying to think when ill is a challenge so please cut me just a bit of slack) but it seems to me that he was just a great salesman. also, did he seize power or just sell himself into the position. if i recall correctly, and ill admit again that i may not, but wasnt he elected into power then essentially sold the german people a line of BS that blamed the jews for all of the woes to befall germany at the time. puleed a houdini and got the people looking one way then while they were distracted just kind of did something on the other hand? i know its more complicated than that but for the sake of discussion i tend to just take the broad view of things as it tends to help keep from bogging down the discussion.


now, i wont say we're better than the german people of the mid-late 30's, but the world has changed and no one can argue that point. information is more widely available and even should the govt suspend the 1st amendment and censor the net like china does...dont u think we'd notice?


people even on this board discuss ideas that if this were a true police state would get them arrested. the NSA would monitor the discussions, they'd hack the admin panel and get IP addresses of 'dissenters', match the addys to an acct then the MIB's would show up and arrest you.

we have access to information sources from around the world wheras the peopl eof germany in the 30's did not.

so, while i see your point and agree with you in the broadest sense, i guess im guilty of giving us all a little credit for thinking on our own and for learning from the mistakes of history to a degree. i sure hope im right...i really do. cuz if im wrong the worlds gonna get even scarier.

also to Justin

don't think that anyone who has posted in this thread thinks that the entire army will act like robots. I'm not sure that anyone can predict what the desertion rate would be under a worst case scenario, but, that rate of desertion may not be high enough to prevent what we fear most.

im glad you dont think we're all automotons

but, sad as it makes me, i also cant argue the fact that there are those within the military who just simply will NOT question orders and will comply and that is in fact a scary thought. thing is this...the generals may be in on it. the privates may follow blindly, though not all. where i think there will be some logic is in teh ranks of the NCO's and Jr Officers who are going to get these orders and go WTF? so to really win over the army, the govt would have to do one hell of a sales job.

of course that brings us back to INWT's last question re: hitler..scary thoughts. lets hope common sense prevails


[edit on 3-10-2006 by Damocles]

Originally posted by Justin Oldham

I'm not at all surprised to see this. In 2004, I predicted that the Federal government would soon begin to train American forces for city fighting inside our own major population centers.

Actually, I did happen years ago, als in 2004....

UNO UPDATE: Marines will use downtown Toledo, for Urban Warfare Training

The Marines will take over parts of downtown Toledo as sounds of gunfire will echo off buildings when training exercises are conducted next weekend.
A Marine Corps unit based in Perrysburg will stage the exercises from 9 p.m. Jan. 7 to about noon Jan. 9, Maj. Gregory Cramer said.

Major Cramer said most of the 130-member unit – Weapons Company, 1st Battalion, 24th Marines – will take part in the exercises.

“We’re looking for an urban environment to do our training,” he said. “Urban training is one of the proficiencies we’re required to maintain.”

Major Cramer said Marines will be dressed in green and will be carrying rifles through the streets, but the exercises should have a minimal impact on the downtown area. He said the Marines will be firing blanks and conducting operations throughout the area.

“The only request we would have of folks, if they happen to be near where an exercise is taking place, is to stay away as much as possible,” Major Cramer said.

The exercise area roughly will be north of Monroe Street, west of the Maumee River, south and west of Cherry Street, south of Woodruff Ave., and east of Collingwood Boulevard.

Toledo Police Chief Mike Navarre said military exercises have been conducted before in the downtown area with a minimal impact on city residents. He said city and police officials have been working with the Marines to help the exercises go smoothly.

“Training is extremely important, not just in our profession, but in the military too,” Chief Navarre said. “We’re not going to place any obstacles in their way.”

Jean Atkin, administrator for the Lucas County Common Pleas Court, said the unit was granted permission to use the courthouse grounds. The unit, though, won’t use the interior of the courthouse.

I had a chance to talk with my great gandmother about life after the Civil War. The story she told was quite interesting. Seems I had family on both sodes. According to her, each person had his own reason for taking part on one side or another. There was no concensus.

Vietnam was my father's war. He went with reservations. Those went away after he'd seen NVA atrocities. I mention this becuase there are a lot of people in uniform right now who feel justified in wha they are doing becuase of what they see in Iraq and Afghanistan. A smart politician here in the United States might groom things just right to make a very cogent case to the Army for intervention.

And that's the kicker. The soldiers of the future will have what they view as legal authority to get the job done. Every time a person today gets done with a big city training scersize, they'll be just a little more "justified." Later on, when they have little soldiers of their own, they'll have opinions that conform tothat world view. I do think that the smart politicians know this.

Originally posted by Damocles
now, i wont say we're better than the german people of the mid-late 30's, but the world has changed and no one can argue that point. information is more widely available and even should the govt suspend the 1st amendment and censor the net like china does...dont u think we'd notice?


people even on this board discuss ideas that if this were a true police state would get them arrested. the NSA would monitor the discussions, they'd hack the admin panel and get IP addresses of 'dissenters', match the addys to an acct then the MIB's would show up and arrest you.

Hitler maintained control by using his secret police force (The gestapo) who were loyal to his cause. I think most german military officers and soilders were afraid of the consequences if they did not go along with Hitler's plans of world domination. If I remember correctly there were even special units (The SS) within the military that were loyal to Hitler. Hitler also had spys everywhere.

So all it really took were a handful of loyal lunitics and criminals to maintain complete and utter control over the rest of the population. The masses just went along for the ride. I think there was even a plot by Hitlers generals to assinate him. But they failed.

You make a good point. Any future military or para-military forces that are used to corral the people will not have to be that large. Peer pressure and fear of being jailed will certainly keep ome men and women in the ranks. We should not be surprised to see just a few members of whatever passes for the Gestapo doing their jobs at any one time. It only takes a few to keep an entire neighborhood in fear. Military presence by itself would curb a lot of civil disobedience just by being out in the open and apparently ready for action.

Okay, here's one for you. In the event that a North Korean ICBM found its way in to the Continental United States, we could very well a state of emergency sufficient to justify deployment of the regular army. What are your thoughts on that?

Give them the kit and go for it. Better to save those who can be saved and worry about the mess later. I mean, the Army was called in for Katrina, no? Clearly, existing emergency services would be insufficient. How many American lives do you want to save?

DE

Is it possible that because the US military is running low on money and probably can't afford to build city mock ups, coupled with the fact that most of our near future fighting will be done in urban cities, ammended with the fact we have been sending Delta and SEAL 6/DEVGRU CT's into metropolitan plaves for realistic training for years now, that this is a natural evolution to how the US trains their military. The Delta & SEAL 6 guys are probably handing down precious knowledge to these Marines and Army soldiers so that they will be more effective in fighting in close combat situations.

I agree with the sentiment behind your words, but I wonder if our leaders might be too tempted to exploit the situation.

National guard units and the Army Corps of Engineers did get the call after Katrina. Same with the Cost guard. The numbers deployed were small, and most of the units were support services. Even so, I get your point.

Here in the States, we've got a new t.v. show to look at. "Jericho" follows a small town in Colorado that is near Denver. The story begins with town surviving nuclear fallout as the city of Denver is apparently destroyed.

I would like to think that our ledaers would be made of better stuff. I would like to think that none of them would exploit such a terrible situation. What says the rest of you?

You guys are SO SCREWED.

Though, on the positive side, I very much doubt that there will be very many survivors to try to exploit, should things go nuclear. Let's continue with your theory of the DPRK nuking the States in a flurry of insanity. the US will inevitably counterlaunch, causing China and/or Russia to counter-counterlaunch...and well, everyone's screwed then.

I'm getting the impression that anything big enough to call martial law over beyond one city will result in the fall of the United States, or the toppling of the government. If every major city in the republic rioted, even the army wouldn't be able to quell it, even using lethal force. They're just spread too thin already.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Let's continue with your theory of the DPRK nuking the States in a flurry of insanity. the US will inevitably counterlaunch, causing China and/or Russia to counter-counterlaunch...and well, everyone's screwed then.

Anything to keep the fans happy.

[Enterprise-Journal, Mcomb Missippi] THE ASSOCIATED PRESS is reporting that a series of atomic attacks took place earlier today along the Western seaboard of the Continental United States. the strikes appear to have been of a type called "air-burst" that is designed to influct EMP damage without wrecking major structures.

Telecommunications of all sorts are off-line in the Western U.S. The attacks took place between 10:02 AM and 11:06 AM Western standard time. The exact number of attacks is not known at this time. A spokesman for the Federal Emergency Management Agency said, "we are still trying to establish contact with our offices in Washington State, Oregon, and California. Please, just give us a little time to sort this out."

White House Press Secretary Tony Snow was quick to call for calm, "The President has been briefed, and he's busy putting together a plan of action. You'll hear from him in just afew hours. Please be patient."

Pentagon sources indicate that the nuclear atacks originated from North Korea. As many as five ICBM's, each carrying a single warhead, may have been tracked just after launch and first-stage separation. Persistent rumors continue to clog the internet as frustrated men and women everywhere wait for a Federal response to this most unexpected of trajedies.

[Click here to read more]

the strikes appear to have been of a type called "air-burst" that is designed to influct EMP damage without wrecking major structures.

save that airburst nuke strikes are the standard as they do the most physical damage....just ask the good people of nagasaki.

unless of course my memory is TOTALLY shot to hell these days...

I believe the concept of 'airburst' has moved to upper-atmosphere explosions designed to induce EMP radiation over large areas- much more dangerous.

DE

That's right. High altitude air burst above 35,000 feet. Very minimal ground wave with maximized EMP footprint.