Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

Reparations to "right" the great wrong of slavery. On the surface, it might sound to some like a noble thing (feel good solution) to do. But lets start thinking about the specifics of actually doing something like this. I see two main issues with this that should stop any thinking person in their track as they try to figure out how reparations would actually work.

The first thing that comes to mind is how do you determine who to collect the reparations money from? All whites in the U.S.? But wait, many (if not most) whites can trace their ancestry to people who came to the U.S. after 1863 and/or lived in the North at that time. Hardly fair to make all pay for the actions of a few people over 150 years ago.

The other key issue that comes to mind is how do you determine who to make the reparations payments to? All blacks in the U.S.? But wait again. Many blacks have also emmigrated to the U.S. after 1863. Surely, it would not be fair to take benefits not "earned" away from the decendants of people wronged so long ago. And how would a person prove that they were actually decendants of slaves from over 150 years ago?

So, when trying to translate the "feel good" into reality, some real problems arise. If, in trying to be fair, you create the opposite, isn't that a major clue that this is not the solution? This is the perfect example of how and why thinking works much better at solving problems than feeling does.

Now, where else can we apply this "new" knowledge?

All you are portraying is the dark side of slavery pre 1900's. It was a different world. If you cannot turn your family around within 3 or 4 generations, there is something wrong with your family unit whether you are black, white , red or green. Do you see where I am coming from. I can empathize, but if you are still living in poverty after 5 or 6 generations in the 20th century, something is wrong because there is oppurtunity everywhere.

You see, modern day (recent) atrocity is recognized, just like Clinton with the Japanese.

en.wikipedia.org...

In 1994 they awarded the descedants monies for what had happened.

.

You see, if they want reparations, why not give them the land that they were taken from in Africa, and let them move back to teh native land that they were 'taken from' and were not allowed to flourish in that Nation. I would like to see how many people step forward then.

Also, you can kill the Kanye West statements about GWB 43 too. There is no place for it here. It is just inflammatory nonsense

" It is easier to join the bandwagon then to sweat the blood to make change" -me



[edit on 28-9-2006 by esdad71]

Who mentioned anything about Kanye West? I thought we were talking about slavery and reparations.

And I thought that the lawsuit was against the corporations which made money off this horrible institution. There's nothing in the lawsuit about making any particular race pay.

There's nothing "feel good" about the institution of slavery in the United States. What is so "touchy feely" about the pictures of the slave being severly whipped by his master or people being packed closely together on a slave ship?

And yes, you can trace your family back to their slave days. In fact, there are many ways to do so. But the easiest way, I've mentioned before, is to test the DNA of deceased slaves (buried in segregated cemeteries) with the survivors. Family artifacts, family Bibles and other paraphenalia to trace family geneology is also possible.

And Native Americans also deserve reparations because of what they went through in this country, especially during and after the times of Colonialism.



[edit on 28-9-2006 by ceci2006]

What a waste of our tax payer dollars.

Fact at the time it was legal.

Fact those that took part in financing them if in fact they did are now dead.

What comes next, are we going to be able to sue someones relatives for wrongdoings members of their family committed 150/200 years ago?

I don't think so and fault the judge for not throwing the case out instantly.

[edit on 9/28/2006 by shots]

It is better that my tax dollars go toward this case than putting it toward the second Iraqi War. Fighting a war that was made with no real possible explaination and having people tortured and killed because of it is not a way to spend tax-payer money.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006

There's nothing "feel good" about the institution of slavery in the United States.
[edit on 28-9-2006 by ceci2006]

As usual, you take a quote and twist or spin it out of context, and then write volumes more in support of your spin.

I specifically said that reparations was a feel good solution , not that slavery was a feel good institution.

It is better that our tax dollars go to the children of this country to stop the cycle of ignorance, crime and imprisonment then to the relatives of slaves from 200 years ago. Next we will have Wiccans suing for the dunking of witches in Salem.

I think since i am only 3rd generation Irish in the states, that I should get some reparations too since it was hard for my ancestors too, although we seemed to have done OK.

allaboutirish.com...

Please read about the similarities, and how the Irish were actually treated worse than the African American.

There have been atrocities all around us, within every race.

Originally posted by thelibra
Agreed. Hey, I wonder if I can sue Whitey and get the whole Great Lakes area back for my tribe? Technically, if black people today can sue Whitey for something that happened hundreds of years ago, us red people should be able to sue as well.

Hmmm... I'll have to watch the result of this case. If they win and the legal precedent is set, I think I'm gonna sue to have the whole northwestern section of the Great Lakes area restore to my tribe's posession. It's only fair, and it's not like the white man was making good use of Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, or Ontario anyway.

Of course I could be swayed if the tribe was just given the estimated dollar value of those lands in lieu of the lands themselves.

I should be allowed to sue to because white ancestors where used as endentured servants and brought me here against my will! Maybe I didn't want to be American.. maybe I wanted to stay Irish.. damn ancestors.. yeah.. il sue my whitey to.

Originally posted by esdad71
Please read about the similarities, and how the Irish were actually treated worse than the African American.

You are kidding right?

Last time I checked the Irish came here of their own free will.

Edit to add: Sorry, I'll try to stay on topic. didn't Mercedes Benz pay reparations to jews in 2000, almost 50 years after the holocaust? I see nothing wrong with this going through. I do not think individual people should get reparations, but I do think the community should.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]

Also (conveniently????) left out of the reparations blame equation are the black tribes in africa that captured the slaves in the first place for sale to the mostly British slave traders.

Great! We now have two more groups to extort money from.

Originally posted by esdad71
All you are portraying is the dark side of slavery pre 1900's. It was a different world. If you cannot turn your family around within 3 or 4 generations, there is something wrong with your family unit whether you are black, white , red or green. Do you see where I am coming from. I can empathize, but if you are still living in poverty after 5 or 6 generations in the 20th century, something is wrong because there is oppurtunity everywhere.

You see, modern day (recent) atrocity is recognized, just like Clinton with the Japanese.

en.wikipedia.org...

In 1994 they awarded the descedants monies for what had happened.

.

You see, if they want reparations, why not give them the land that they were taken from in Africa, and let them move back to teh native land that they were 'taken from' and were not allowed to flourish in that Nation. I would like to see how many people step forward then.

Also, you can kill the Kanye West statements about GWB 43 too. There is no place for it here. It is just inflammatory nonsense

" It is easier to join the bandwagon then to sweat the blood to make change" -me



[edit on 28-9-2006 by esdad71]

I believe the nation of Liberia was formed as a refuge for slaves.. its latin for "Free land" or land of the free. Founded by once enslaved Americans, the country is torn with strife. Most African Americans don't even know about Liberia or where it is located and why it was founded...

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
You are kidding right?

Last time I checked the Irish came here of their own free will.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]

A lot of peole did come to the U.S. of their own free will. But check your history. A lot of people, including my wife's grandparents from Spain, also came here as indentured servants (basically slaves with a term limit). One can say those people volunteered, but I'm sure many would have had second thoughts if they'd known what they were in for.

[edit on 9/28/2006 by centurion1211]

The first slaves in our nation where the indenture slaves and they were white.

When White servitude is acknowledged as having existed in America, it is almost always termed as temporary "indentured servitude" or part of the convict trade, which, after the Revolution of 1776, centered on Australia instead of America. The "convicts" transported to America under the 1723 Waltham Act, perhaps numbered 100,000.

The indentured servants who served a tidy little period of 4 to 7 years polishing the master's silver and china and then taking their place in colonial high society, were a minuscule fraction of the great unsung hundreds of thousands of White slaves who were worked to death in this country from the early l7th century onward.

www.revisionisthistory.org...

So if a law sue is to be done for "reparations" to slaves it should included all descendants of slaves black or white.

I am also a descendant of slaves as a matter of fact my Island was one of the first places where slaves from Africa were brought by Portuguese slave traders.

Should I look for a piece of the pie?

Can you sue companies that sold drugs that have since become illegal. After the civil war Heroin was tauted as the cure for morphine addicition.

Alas, all the adicts from the civil war are dead.

So too, all the former slaves are dead.

Slavery was morally wrong even when it was legal. I'l glad that our predicisors had the courage to abolish slavery.

However, I don't think that lawsuits like this have any merit.





[edit on 28-9-2006 by Wildbob77]

Originally posted by marg6043
Should I look for a piece of the pie?

Why not. Almost everyone that thinks they can claim a piece of what would be the latest entitlement (government giveaway) program would be there with their hands out. Of course there would also be a lot of fraudulent claims, and a whole new federal bureauracracy would have to be created and funded to manage this program. By the time anyone got their check, it would probably amount to only about $1,000

But all that is the stuff they leave out when pushing this reparations boondoggle.

Worthwhile??? You tell me ...

Originally posted by marg6043
I am also a descendant of slaves as a matter of fact my Island was one of the first places where slaves from Africa were brought by Portuguese slave traders.

Should I look for a piece of the pie?

Nope you cannot sue Americans Marg. In your case you might have to sue Spain and rots of luck on that one

Actually if you think about it, some of those suing would have to sue the French and Spanish since they controlled a lot of the South. That shows you how stupid this lawsuit is when you stop and think about it.



[edit on 9/28/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by centurion1211
A lot of peole did come to the U.S. of their own free will. But check your history. A lot of people, including my wife's grandparents from Spain, also came here as indentured servants (basically slaves with a term limit). One can say those people volunteered, but I'm sure many would have had second thoughts if they'd known what they were in for.

[edit on 9/28/2006 by centurion1211]

I am more than familiar with the history of indentured servants, and as you said, they volunteered. True, they might not have volunteered had they known what it would have been like in advance...but we all know hindsight is 20/20 right?

Do I need to worry because my distant ancestors were Vikings?

Surely ancestors of mine cause property damage, death, rape, and the taking of slaves. Is someone going to sue me?

I think not.

THe time has past. All former slaves and slave owners are dead. You can't hold me accountable for the sins of my father. You can't hold a country accountable for the sins of their distant relatives.

This is just an issue to fan the flames of discontent.

Slavery was wrong. It ended over 140 years ago. It's time to get on with life and not waste the courts time with things like this.

If we can give a nation billions of dollars every year for something we didn't even do , on top of reparations they already recieve from Germany , the American Indian as well as the African Americans deserve something as well. I am not in their shoes that I can say that they do not deserve something for their past tribulations and I cannot say that their efforts are a waste of time either. I do know both peoples have suffered a great deal and for long periods of time.

If our Government can go as far as to secure reparations in the form of confiscating antiquities that was on loan to American schools in order to give reparations to Israeli citizens injured in Israel, then surely Americans are entitled to their time in court just as much if not more then terror victims injured in other countries.

Reparations are punitive. Reparations imposed on Germany in 1918 brought on Adolph Hitler and he brought on World War Two. And conquered people will resent paying reparations. OTOH the idea of reparation are not all that bad. As in the death penally, it is believed by many to be a real deterrent, if the perpetrator knows he or she will have to give up the profits of exploiting or abusing another. Sort of an old time RICO law. Racketeering Influenced Criminal Organization. You lose your gains.

Frequently, reparations for African Americans are equaled to the same for Native Americans. Not so. First, for better or for worse, many NAs chose the losing side in war. Various wars but especially the French and Indian War of 1757-1763, and it was soon followed by the War of 1775-1783. Major Indian tribes in the East chose the British. Two major miscalculations in a row. Regrettably, the winners treated all the Indians equally badly, even those who had helped them. The Native Americans waged a long and heroic battle against the insatiably expansionists and technologically superior Europeans. The outcome was never in doubt. And it was the ancient Law of War, to the victor go the spoils.

Since Hernando Cortez and his small force of 300 Spaniards defeated the 50,000 man Aztec army in the 1520s, the inhabitants of the New World were doomed. The only question was how many “indigent personnel” could survive. The lure of gold, the lure of beaver pelts, the lure of buffalo hides and even once, buffalo tongues. Kill a 1000 pound animal, cut outfits 5-6 pound tongue, let the rest rot on the ground. The lure of land. White men went berserk and red men in the way were killed.

The last battle was waged at Wounded Knee Creek, North Dakota. Fleeing Indians were caught by the Army which surrounded the band, and opened up on them with repeating rifles and 2 Gatling guns. The Indians fought back with mostly single shot Civil War rifles. War surplus. 300 Indians were killed in a very few minutes. 18 soldiers of the US 7th Cavalry were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer had been revenged. The people listen, your government speaks!

Africans OTOH, were brought here against their will. They were bought on the West Coast of Africa by enterprising ship owners and captain who then transported the slaves in the most horrible conditions you can image, on a voyage that took 3-4 months at sea. 300 to 400 humans, chained together by leg chains, and forced to lie or sit on a sloping shelf down which human excrement flowed, into a trough through which sailors would throw sea water to “flush” the toilet. A bowl of gruel a day, maybe a chuck on worm infested hard tack, and once in a while, a raw sardine to eat. Not exactly what you'd expect today on a Royal Caribbean ship.

There were verified stories of slave ship captains, about to be overtaken by a British warship enforcing the anti-slavery laws, a process that could take several days in those wind and sail times, have been known to attach an anchor to the chain, then to thrown it overboard which carried with it all the chained together Africans! It was cheaper to return to Africa and buy a new load of slaves than to fall into the British hands. John Newton, an villainous English sea captain who had transported many slaves, after his epiphany, wrote the beautiful very Amazing Grace.

Somewhat akin to another famous English writer from whose work I have excised:
The Pilgrim's Progress
Now was I in a strait, and did not see
Which was the best thing to be done by me:
At last I thought, Since you are thus divided,
I print it will, and so the case decided.

Art thou for something rare and profitable?
Wouldest thou see a truth within a fable?
Art thou forgetful? Wouldest thou remember
From New-Year's day to the last of December?
Then read my fancies; they will stick like burs,
And may be, to the helpless, comforters.

Wouldst read thyself, and read thou knowest not what,
And yet know whether thou art blest or not,
By reading the same lines? Oh, then come hither,
And lay my book, thy head, and heart together.

JOHN BUNYAN.



[edit on 9/28/2006 by donwhite]