For all the Athiests.........

i agree that religion could be a good thing....but its very obvious that through the stupidity of the human race that it never will be. I also think that the spiritual realm is something that isnt controlled by religion in the slightest. i am an athiest but i spend lots of time trying out psychic methods but its not as if because im not religious that it wont work for me. If religion was the only way for the people on earth to respect eachother and do no wrong then i think even if i do not find it real or creditable then it should still exist. but i think that people should stop and think....you dont have to be religious to be a good person.

Those who follow a religion will also have some fear of punishment in the afterlife.

It's so much less stressful being an atheist

yeh we can enjoy the good life without fear of whats coming next

let me ask one question.. are there still millions worshipping the ancient greek gods?..

and i'll answer this for everyone.. plain and simple, no there are not millions worshipping the ancient greek gods.

at one point in time those gods were a part of a very strong and powerful civilization, who back in the day, most likely attributed their power to their gods.

these were the gods at the center of a great civilization, yet now all they are, are mere historic myths we're taught in history.

now why are these gods taught as myth, yet hindu gods, the christian god, muslim god, and all their stories are not taught as myth?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
let me ask one question.. are there still millions worshipping the ancient greek gods?...

now why are these gods taught as myth, yet hindu gods, the christian god, muslim god, and all their stories are not taught as myth?

Because the Greeks power waned and the Church's power grew in western civilisation, Islamic power grew in the Middle East and Hindu belief grew in the Indian areas.

Sad isnt it? They had heaps of cool gods I would have LOVED to worship j/k

yeah but you didn't answer or attempt to answer the question..

why are the greek gods now taught as myth, yet the christian god is not.

just because christianity grew and took over, that doesn't mean greek gods are therefore myths. in that case, and using that ideology, if one religion can take over another, and the taken over religion becomes a mere myth, then why is christianity considered anything other than a myth?

[edit on 15-9-2006 by shaunybaby]

Don't worry Shaunybaby in 100 years christianity will be a myth too. Science will eventually fill in for so much of our knowledge that the gaps filled by "gods" will be too small for people to take religion seriously period. Spirituality may exist for ever but organized religions never do. besides even jesus said (paraphrasing here) the only way to God or Enlightenedment is through a self designed inner path and not through outside organized religion. Personally I'd rather worship Enki or Thoth, P'tah was cool too, and wouldn't it be nice if I preyed really hard, Aphrodite would visit me as a reward for living a proprietus lifestyle.

i'm not worried at all.. you said exactly what i was getting at..

if the greek gods, that millions believed in and that a powerful civilization was built upon, can become myths that are taught in history class, then there's nothing special about any of the religions around today that suggest the same won't happen to them.

the fact that a cult/religion can spark up like scientology and get people believe in their beliefs, which in my personal opinion are a little silly.. if you think genesis is a little farfetched, you should check out some of the scientology concepts of how everything started.. farfetched wouldn't even come close..

matter of fact people will believe anything, i think scientology is proof of that. two billion christians doesn't mean anything.. all that shows is that there's a whole lot of people in the world in need of faith, in need of guidence, and in need of something of a devine nature that watched over them, protects them, and will eventually lead them to some afterlife where they will live for eternity..

i'm actually extremely proud to be an atheist.. 2.5% you say.. that's a very niche group to be a part of. wear your atheism proudly

Shaunybaby,

I too am a proud Athiest. Why cant people wrap it aroung their heads that the notion of a creator god is a human concept to fill in for our lack of understanding. Dude scientology...dude... they're friggen wierd. I live in LA and have to deal with them all the time. You seriously can't walk down parts of hollywood without one trying to audit you or give you a free personality test, or some other crap to drag you in. I know people that said OK when invited in and were immediatly taken to locked rooms with other fresh prospects and forced to watch 45 minute brainwashing cult propaganda. Most people just looked around the room confused like can I get these 45 min of my life back. Some were suckered into joining. Definantly a cult. Xenu. What kind of 50's b movie lamo name for an intergalactic ruler is that. its a little too close to foriegner in latin for it to be an authentic ET name, and why would he use hydrogen bombs to kill billions of people? I mean really Darth Vader would have just used the Death Star to wipe us off the map why go old school with nukes and radiation? Not a very smart space man. Hubbard used to lock himself in his room right before he invented scientology high on '___' and scream I AM GOD at the top of his lungs. What a nut.

Enlightenment isn't some sort of mild feeling you get after reading books. It's not a state you reach doing years of scientific study. Enlightenment is a complete an utter re-establishment of all your senses, faculties, thoughts, realization of your self and of God and bigger glimpses of whats really goin on in reality. If I'm not enlightened, then niether was Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, nor any author who ever made the claim. I am not making claims to be any of them or even on the same level. But I do claim to have been granted similar faculties and additional spiritual senses that they achieved. If true enlightenment is gathering as much knowledge as is possible over a life-time, then I will reiterate that I achieved spiritual Enlightenment, one which cannot be learned from any books. Once you get there, there is a whole other set of realities at play.

Everyone is able to reach enlightenment or to know and comprehend God at a higher level of Enlightenment, but if your going about it half-assed, you will not get there. It requires certain spiritual training like the Gym example I sued. You won't notice anything or get there any faster by not doing certain things, or being an outsider looking in and commenting on what you see from the outside, especially when there are tons of people and religions that misrepresnt God.

There are 2 sides to every argument, but two conflicting statements can't be true, i.e. only one is correct. Look up Pascal's Pensee argument on the existence of a Creator. Athiests live guilt free? Yeah right !!!!! If your an athiest and you did something you felt was wrong, you will still feel guilt even if you don't believe in a Creator, you still have a conscience.

The big face off for the Athiest is on the death bed, when the individual is faced with the inevitable and complete annihilation. That must suck "knowing" that it is completely then end of your journey, but then waking up to find that it was just your body that was dead and you were wrong all along. Now what? As far as repurcussions in the afterlife, that sure would suck if you went your life not belieiving in the idea of a creator, then having to face him. Though what happens then, whether your embraced in Love or the opposite, is not up to me to judge.

I personally have no fear of the afterlife and have no fear of any judgement. We all have peaks and valleys in our lives and we all have to fail before we succeed, it's just the way it goes. Never in any of my comments did I say you had to be religious to be a good person. There are athiest friends that I have that are considered good people, big deal. Still there are failures in life and there are certain ways to deal with these things when it comes to a relationship between you and God.

The Scientology example, is actually a funny joke to me. Why anyone would bring this up as an argument to me reaching Enlightenment and God through Biblical practices is completely ubsurd. You can use bad cult examples all day if you want, but it still does not bring my whole argument down in any way. Again there is truth that is pure and there is truth that is perverted. If you feel that it is all perverted and can't distinguish the truth from non-truth using Socratic method or dedactics, then I would have to say that you prefer to always use stereo-typical views on everything and go with that.

Science is cool and everything, but the foundations of science is weak and I'll tell you why. There are scientific standars that the community lives by, that are recently being proven wrong. Both Einstien's and Newton's theories have recently been proven to have loop holes in them. There are literally new findings everyday that are shifting, moving, shaking, and changing the foundations of science. It is unstable because of the constant changes and findings. Best statement a scientist can say is, that "based on the current foundations, so and so is such and such" which again is liable to change.

Part 2 continued...

First of all I would just like to make it clear to all that what I'm about to say is just my opinion, I'm not purposefully trying to offend anyone.

dominicus, the way I see it, you are not truly enlightened. I do believe that you are on the right path, but enlightenment can take a long time. I'm not saying that I myself am enlightened, although one day I would like to achieve that state.

There is no one way to enlightenment either, it will differ from individual to individual as we all have our own charecteristics and preferences. You all must keep in mind the fact that no matter what you believe, you are loved. Loved to an extent that I am incapable of explaining.

I myself am not a christian, I don't choose one particular religion to follow as religion so far has done nothing but divide people of earth. Not that religion can't bring people together or promote love, it's just that most of the time people argue about who is right.

The funny thing is that Jesus and Buddah both never intended to have people worshipp them or have a religion started in their name. All they wanted was for people to listen to what they had to say and think about it. Jesus was jewish and buddah just wanted people to love each other and listen to his wisdom.

There is no one god that is THE god, there is an undying love however. I feel that as long as you're not doing harm to people or the enviroment, then you are free to believe what you want. That's the beauty of life, free will. We can do anything, believe anything, and we are still loved.

Just to give a little backround info on myself, I would like to say that I'm an 18 year old male living in Texas. I have not done any drugs, alcohol, etc. so anything I feel or think is not because of drugs. I just hope that one day everyone will come to realize how great this earth could be if we would all just live in the now and actually do something to make this a better place for all.

If you feel what I say is true, then please just trust yourself and do what feels right. If you think I'm crazy, wrong, or just plain full of it, that's ok too. I won't get mad a someone for having their own opinion. Just do what feels right in your heart and soul.

Peace, Love, and Light to all.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
yeah but you didn't answer or attempt to answer the question..

why are the greek gods now taught as myth, yet the christian god is not.

Yes I did, the Greeks power waned and the Churches power grew. The church wouldnt want people believeing in any other god - in fact Im pretty sure its a sin to "worship false idols". Whoever has the power gets to set the faith, just look at the middle east - some countries its convert to islam or GTFO!

just because christianity grew and took over, that doesn't mean greek gods are therefore myths.

Im not saying that just because christianity took over the greek gods became myth by default - im saying that the Church would have done everything in their power to convince people that the old gods were myths and their god was the real god.

in that case, and using that ideology, if one religion can take over another, and the taken over religion becomes a mere myth, then why is christianity considered anything other than a myth?

As BASSPLYR said, it will happen. One day far from now (because the church is still fairly powerful) another belief will take over and people will learn about the myth of Jesus and Mohammad and Vishnu and Shiva and Buddha.

Originally posted by dominicus
If I'm not enlightened, then niether was Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, nor any author who ever made the claim. I am not making claims to be any of them or even on the same level. But I do claim to have been granted similar faculties and additional spiritual senses that they achieved.

Now mate, coming in here and comparing yourself to Jesus or Buddha in ANY way is a sure fire way to not get taken seriously.

After reading your past posts it seems you are in here trying to stir up interest in your "Enlightenment" so that people will buy these books you are writing.

My advice: hire a publicist, because you arent going to sell too many books sprouting BS in here.

Science is cool and everything, but the foundations of science is weak and I'll tell you why. There are scientific standars that the community lives by, that are recently being proven wrong. Both Einstien's and Newton's theories have recently been proven to have loop holes in them.

And the foundation of religion ISNT weak? You want to talk about loop holes? Im sure there are member on this site who could talk for HOURS about the loopholes in the bible.

Heres one I've always wanted explained - Dinosaurs

Ive never heard them mentioned in the bible, but the fact of the matter is- they existed. We have fossils and bones to prove it!

There are literally new findings everyday that are shifting, moving, shaking, and changing the foundations of science. It is unstable because of the constant changes and findings. Best statement a scientist can say is, that "based on the current foundations, so and so is such and such" which again is liable to change.

And the best statement a priest can make is:

"Based on this book which is thousands of years old and compiled from people who we arent even sure existed, and has been changed and re-written numerous times to fit the authors agenda, and has been interpreted different ways by numerous scholars throughout history, so and so is such and such"



edit: 'TOO many' not 'to many' tsk tsk...

[edit on 16-9-2006 by Ezekiel]

dominicus,
I'm not trying to attack or debunk your experieces and beliefs. But, the things you have described are found in many world religions....some call it enlightenment. But is that what it really is? I have had the same experiences myself(as many have, and will in the future), but I can only equate that the knowledge that was recieved as a different viewpoint... or a new way to truely see the underlying principles of reality. My question is, why do you define what you have seen as God? From your descriptions, I take that you have seen "it" and the luminous threads that eminate from "it", combining into what we percive as reality. How does one leap to the conclusion that "it" is "God"? You are aware that you can test "it" right? But, like many who see this thing you have named it, and give it attributes that it doesn't actually have. Test, and question it like you would any sentient being.....unfortunately it will not answer back, it can't. It does only one thing, gives life and then recalls it. That is not how God would behave according to most religions, but through meditation you can "see" it happen and behave in this manner. Why be enslaved to a "machine" and it's will. There are many ways to pull yourself out the cycle, and retain your individual sentient being. Christianity, as a whole seeks to be subserviant to this "thing". Prophets of old only changed thier awareness, but then never questioned the process. Some changed thier awareness and saw hell, others a heaven....but there many thousands of these places, no better or worse than the others. They all gave in to thier egos when describing there experience, instead of showing others how to achive the same results and decide for themselves.

Originally posted by EzekielHeres one I've always wanted explained - Dinosaurs

Ive never heard them mentioned in the bible, but the fact of the matter is- they existed. We have fossils and bones to prove it!

A pointless question. Every time I pose this question to a religious follower, they all say its because their respective deity seeks to sort of weed out his true believers. Those who deny the existence of the beasts are apparantly the correct ones.

Science is cool and everything, but the foundations of science is weak and I'll tell you why. There are scientific standars that the community lives by, that are recently being proven wrong. Both Einstien's and Newton's theories have recently been proven to have loop holes in them.

And once they have been found to be wrong, work immediately begins on closing the loopholes and in this research we are led to greater theories and discoveries (hence the Chaos Theory)

7Pan7Cho,
I don't know how you can see/think that I'm not trully enlightened after reading any of my posts on the experience of it, all of which was natural and induced from rigurous Biblical excercises that took a few years, and better yet, Enlightenment is vast, of which I have only pennetrated just the surface of. Yes it did take a long time, but do you have 100% reasonable doubt that I am not "there?"

Yes, many times relgions and those who are part of them do argue over who is right. Did you hear the new pope's comments about Islam? They want to kill him now for what he said. That's saying we can't obviously bring up the crusades, but again this is beyond the point. When it comes to indivivduals referring to Religions ruining the world and all these negative connotations, then that's fine because they also have brought people together, though you have to look past the surface to have the gems revealed. Again, religion is like a Gun being indifferent in and of itself, but depending who is using it and for what, that's when the indifference is polluted.

You said there is undying Love, and yet Biblical scripture states the God is Love, and is something that can be expereinced as a mystical, deep penetrating, transcendent Love. Free-will is cool and everything, but with free will comes the choice to do wrong, and become killers, rapists, and have no conscience, then again becasue of free will that's the nature of duality. Thats the way everything has to play itself out the way it is now.

I do agree with you that this earth is great and us even existing here is PROFOUND, however Socrates summerized it best when he stated that our Government and religions of the world will never be without corruption unless 1 of 2 things happen. Either righteous philosophers hold positions of power, or we hve Divine intervention. You should realize that there really is no other way possible for there to be peace on earth because of corruption, false religions, misrepresented religions, false egos. Listen when I was 18, your age, I didn't even think it was possible that enlightenment even exists, until 10 yrs later it happened to me.

Your saying do what feels right in your heart, but the heart is deceptive. You don't even have to go to the Bible to learn this because the literature of some of the worlds best Philosophers have stated this before the existence of Christ, Buddha, Muhammed, etc. It's also been echoed in the psychologist/psychiatrist communities. The smartest people of the world knew that the heart is deceptive and it takes a life-time to discern what is right and what is not, even though many times what we feel at the time is right, in hindsight it wasn't.
...............
Somebody else commented that Christianity will be gone in a hundred years, Didn't many athiests say that a hundred years ago????

Don't get me wrong, I do belieive there are other ways to reach enlightenment, however Christ came after Buddha and revealed a quicker way to get there, instead of the standard 7 year Buddhist average. It's a simple of process of submitting your self to God, which in Buddhism there is a similar process of destroying ones own ego, repenting, and excepting a new divine way of life based on the number one rule being loving God with everything you got, more then your parents, husband/wife, kids, etc.

Another key aspect is to turn the other cheek, and I gaurantee all of you that because of my enlightenment, that if anyone of you was to punch me in my face/jaw and shed blood break any bones, that I would turn the other cheek and automatically forgive you for it, and even try to befriend you once I left the hospital. I know I will get a lot of replys or this comment alone, but the object of what I just said is that the only way you can turn the other cheek is by either becomming enlightened or training night and day for along time to be able to react this way, all which leads up to enlightenment.

Part 3 cont shortly...

PArt 3...
Ezekial,
How is Jesus a myth? There is more OVERWHELMING evidence for the existence and actions of Christ then there are for the non-existence of Christ. The most literature to ever come out of any historical period was in Christs' time. HE is documented as existant and crucified by the Roman Government, which prided itself in it's record keeping, I mean I can go on and on. You should back up how he is a myth to you.

Never did I compare myself to Christ or Buddha anywhere on any of my posts, prove me wrong. I stated that to a certain degree I have the same Enlightenment through submitting myself to God that they had, i.e. transcendence, extra spiritual senses, extra beyond words spiritual knowldge, etc. Christ himself stated that if you follow certain spiritual precepts he spoke of, you can also share in the Enlightenment that he has, and his disciples were also Enligtened as he was and performed miracles that he did, given to them by him. Big Difference my friend !!!!!!

I'm not here to promote any books. Why would I spend hours on rebuttles in an attempt to promote any future books to a few hundred people? Come on now, of course I know what a publicist does. I am years away from finishing any of my works so why would I go on here to promote anything now? Think about it !!!! I have no propoganda to offer, no books, no websites, no t-shirts, no key-chains. Simply spiritual truths and the breaking down of weak views.

Give me some Biblical loop-holes then, if you know them. Dinosaurs are covered in the Bible. Of course the exact word "dinosaurs" wasn't used until I think the 1800's, but regardless. Dinosaurs are spoken of in Job 40:15-24. Got any more?

Which Priest has ever made this statement? When it comes to the Bible, there are way too many "original" copies of each of the internal books to be able to credibly use the "it's been changed over the years" argument. The KJV and NIV, perhaps , because there always going to be changes when interpretting from one language to another. But we still have the original Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and various other language versions of the originals and the first generations of copies. To interpret any of these versions required groups of intellectual Lingusts that studied words and interpretations they're whole lives in order to have logically and within reason the best possible linguistic interpretations. Now the Koran is another story, because nobody can find the original(s).
.........
LordBaskett,
Yes, I know my expereinces are similar to other religions. So I state several factors of my pesonal label being a "Christion Mystic Selective Universalist". It may be libel to change over my lifetime, but the first two titles hold for eternity and here's why; I've noticed that all these similar experiences are based on the a lifestyle composed of Monk style asctetics, mysticism, and Loving God being "the" key principle. I reached my enlightenment through Christ, Also the Holy Spirit is found in other religions as well, but these are things I'm researching for future literature. Selective Universalist because I feel there are Universali principals to reach Enlightenment and to know God first hand. I'm more on the side of "Christ Like" also referring to those that have lived/are living within the same life-style concepts that he lived, regardless of whether they knew of him or not.

Everything else you spoke of in your post, is trully advanced level theology and I'm currently going through the notions that you speak of. I think "enslaved to the machine" has it's standard differences of perspective. It may be that what we see as this "machine" during meditation can be a subsystem of God, spitting out life and taking back souls. The things we see after reaching enlightenment are ridiculously diffcult to discern for quite some-time until we do go through the notions of asking, testing, exploring, diving deeper into this advanced spiritual awareness, and so forth.

part 4 next......

Originally posted by dominicus
PArt 3...
Ezekial,
How is Jesus a myth? There is more OVERWHELMING evidence for the existence and actions of Christ then there are for the non-existence of Christ. The most literature to ever come out of any historical period was in Christs' time. HE is documented as existant and crucified by the Roman Government, which prided itself in it's record keeping, I mean I can go on and on. You should back up how he is a myth to you.

Sorry I should have made my point more clear - I dont doubt that Jesus Christ THE MAN existed, however I dont believe that he was the son of god, or immortal or that he rose from the dead. There is no proof of any of that - other than the word of ORDINARY MEN written thousands of years ago.

15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

Ok if that is your idea of an explanation of Dinosaurs by the bible I have to say that Im terribly disappointed. Its vague and cryptic at best.

"He eateth grass like an ox" - what about the carnivourous dinosaurs? T-Rex for example.

Part 4,
LordBaskett,
continued..... I think you reaching some of these states is beyond awsome, however we can always go deeper and once we do, the previous perspectives change to reveal something more, different, and many times things that seem paradoxical to what we previously thought was a certain way. To me, the feeling of it being a machine wasn't a big factor, because in a sense it did seem that way, but the diference for me is that there is an excahnge of Love. On my behalf it has to do with Loving God in the same ways you loved your first "true Love", your parents, your friends, etc. It's a combination of these different kinds of Loves that you send forth towards him, and in return you recieve these unmistakble Divine waves of transcendent Love that knock you some times literally off your feet. It's kind of like getting shot by an Ecstacy Gun. To me what you speak of is the the aspect of God's transcendence, i.e. indifference to a certain degree, and while it may seem cold at first, it is only that way when you percieve just that transcendent indifference by itself. When it is combined with Love, the perspective is of a bigger overall picture of God loving all unconditionally. So we can percieve single states/attributes/conditions, whatever you want to call them, of God, but there is still the overall combination of every aspect. I think the biggest aspect for me is that there is a communication channel open and an exchange of sorts. I'm still gettin used to this, examing, testing, questioning, and expriencing it all at the level that I currently am at, so I can only go as far, as deep, conversationally as I am now. But overall your post has a degree of Genius to it as far as the questions youy pose, knowing yourself that these levels/awareness'/realities exist

.....................
JackofBlades,
Dinosaur question answered in part 3 of my posts, the one previous to this one. Dinosaurs are in the Bible, Job 40:15-24, and since it is mentioned in there, it is still irrelevant to the overall theme of Man and God.

Yes I know of Chaos theory. Once those loopholes are found, scientists find ways on closing them, and once they are closed, new ones form or are found, multiplied by infinity. It will always be this way, as it even can be proven in Chaos theory. Infinity, eternity, and God all have aspects of this randomness, yet based on the initial conditions, determine the outcome. If you want to see this at play, put on one of those channels that has the black and white fuzz, there are many people that can maniuplate this by looking at it and thinking how they want it manipulated, or you can google random numbers generators and how thoughts influence them.