Speech From Pope Outrages Muslim Leaders

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by sal88
well i would feel slightly annoyed that they could in effect be making my religion seem intolerant of others.
But i would give them the benefit of the doubt, bearing in mind the media loves to hype things up, just as i have done in this case, and rightly so, as I can't actually find the bit that you are referring to in the transcript.

Yea ofcourse - but the problem is, that the entire West is suddenly very hostile against an Entire Religion; War on Terrorism turned out to be War against Muslims, people start using terms such as Islamofascists and now even da Pope AKA Der Panzer Cardinal (an Ex-Hitler Jugend) is calling a Muslim Prophet a warmonger?

PLEASE!

Can this be even more Obvious?

what are you incinuating?

Originally posted by krossfyter
what are you incinuating?

That so-called War on Terrorism is actually a War on Islam.

Re-animating old Fears of Crusades and Evil Islamic Empire.

Actually statememnts such as this one from Pope, are a Blessing for the REAL Jihadists.

Sorry but that's too much of a parallel with people saying that ahmadinejad wants to launch his crusade of 40,000 suicide bombers of whatever the hell it was against all 'unbelievers' or Jews, because he condemns the Israeli regime, and Israel is mostly comprised of Jews, and he quoted Khomenei saying it should be wiped from the map; its getting small bits of information here and there and turning it into anything you want.

Show me where he calls the Prophet Muhammad a warmongerer. As far as i knew the Vatican's stance on Islam had always been a positive one.
He was in Hitler's youth? That doesn't mean anything, the only other choice back then was to be killed, the Nazi's didn't nescessarily succeed in indocrinating the youth either, in fact its commonly said to be the opposite.

"suddenly very hostile" doesn't seem to fit

You know what I think? I think Muslims/Islamics must sit around and listen to all speeches made in the world just so they can bitch about them. The fanatics are a bunch of hypocrite's, it is OK for them to clam there was no Holocaust and wish death on all Jews yet it is not right for anyone to criticize them or even mention their faith:shk:

Originally posted by Souljah
And How would You People feel, if a Supreme Islamic Cleric would declare, that Christianity and Judaism is based on Violence and that they preach death and war?

It would not bother me one bit. You see unlike those fanatics most christians realize the cruasades ened years ago and christians changed their ways. You cannot say the same for islam just read the Koran

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by Souljah
And How would You People feel, if a Supreme Islamic Cleric would declare, that Christianity and Judaism is based on Violence and that they preach death and war?

It would not bother me one bit. You see unlike those fanatics most christians realize the cruasades ened years ago and christians changed their ways. You cannot say the same for islam just read the Koran

Tony Blair and George Bush claim to be Christian, and they read the Bible

Originally posted by shots
You cannot say the same for islam just read the Koran

Oh Yeah?

And Brother Killing Brother is OKEY? (Cain & Abel)

And Parents Killing their own Children is OKEY? (Abraham & Isaac)

And Crucifixion is OKEY?

And Moses Murdering an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking is OKEY?

PLENTY of Cruely And Violence can be found in Holy Bible.

But the problem is, that that is OKEY, correct?

Only Bible readers who wear the thickest rose-colored glasses can fail to notice all the blood and violence that fill its pages.


[edit on 16/9/06 by Souljah]

War story

According to the US, arabs and islamic extremists are terrorists. According to arab countries US is the terrorist who is destroying them one by one. Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon.

What is weapon of mass destruction. A weapon which can cause a hell lot of destruction.

Amount of people who died in iraq, afghanistan and lebanon is not even comparable to amount of people dead in 9/11.

Americans should experience a real war, then they will truly understand what WAR means.

I am from India but I lived all my life in Kuwait. I was 7 yrs old when Iraq attacked Kuwait. I lived in a small apartment with my parents and my 2 older brothers and an elder sister. We woke up on the morning of 2nd august to the sound of an explosion. We thought it could have been a thunder but it was just too loud and sounded too close. We woke up our parents. My dad assured us it was nothing and went off to work as usual. Half way to his workplace he was sent back home.

There were iraqi soldiers everywhere, people shooting, tanks going off, bombs being dropped. Iraq had attacked Kuwait and had pretty much taken control over it. My dad came home and told us of what we saw. We started panicking and my dad tried to contact his friends to see how we could get out of the country. Airport was closed off. We were scared to leave the apartment. We had heard on the news that Iraqi soldiers were taking yound males prisoners. Esp. young kuwait males. They were randomly going to people's houses and apartments and either just killing them or taking them prisoners.

One day an Iraqi soldier came to our house. He wanted to take my dad and elder bro prisoner. He wanted to take them away. My mom pleaded and begged him not too. She cried a lot and so did the rest of us. Somehow through some miracle he did felt pity or since we were not kuwaiti, he spared my dad and bro and assured us that no other soldier would come to our place. I wonder what would have happened if he had taken them prisoner that day. My life wudnt be the same.


My dad and his friend formed a convoy of cars and we left everything to leave the country by road. At first we were stopped at different borders but finally we were allowed to leave. We had to drive through different countries and live in tents. We were refugess for months. We stayed in small size tents and we slept on a thin cloth through which we wud feel the rocks poking all over our bodies. Occassionally the aid truck wud come by to drop off food for us.

My dad came back to kuwait couple of years later. He was a volunteer for the fire fighting team which was still trying to extinguish burning oil wells. My dad had to drive with his headlights on during the day because the smoke had filled the skies completely. The trees were black. He had to dodge land mines and dead bodies that were all over the place. Even to this day we get reports of people dying or getting injured because of land mines left over since the attack.


In short, think about the people US kills everyday. Bush and Israel have wiped out entire cities. Ppl cry abt 9/11 abut what abt the people being killed everyday. Entire cities getting wiped out. Americans should #ing stop supporting Bush. And ya US does not need to poke its nose in other countries business. People were much happier in afghanistan, iraq, and lebanon before US attacked them. Atleast they were alive, they had homes, and they could go out in the streets. Im so pissed off i cant even right anymore

It's interesting what's happening here.

The Pope is being selectively quoted by people on the Islamic side seeking to increase tension, ironically from a speech encouraging peaceful dialouge.

On the other hand, we see people here on the Western side selectively quoting Islamic leaders' responses, also in an apparent effort to increase tensions.

There are fanatics on both sides looking to provoke a general cultural conflict, one that 90% of those on either side have no interest in and nothing to gain from.

I think it's time for the rest of us, on either side, to take out the fanatics on our own side of the fence before they kill the rest of us with their mindless lust for a genocidal war.

It's us or them - and I'd rather it was them.

[edit on 9/16/06 by xmotex]

I just joined ATS after reading this thread and hearing all about the issue with the Popes' lecture.

You are SO right. There ARE fanatics on both sides of the argument, fanatics in the Western World and fanatics in the Muslim/Islamic world.

However there is a difference.. fanatics in the Western world are often frowned upon and ridiculed by others, who bring a sense of order and debate.

In the Islamic world the "moderate" Islamics are oppressed by the fanatics and will not speak out as then they will be under threat. Islamic Fanatics are quite happy to murder other muslims for the simple reason that they believe a slightly different version of Islam than they do, what do you think they think of those that are not muslim at all, who they call Kafer.

I have been having a search around the web, seeing if what the various people and organisations were quoting was accurate about Islam, what I turned up was rather interesting.

If you have about and hour and a half - have a look at the following on the Google Video site - it's a documentry about Fanatical Islam. I would certainly like to see what the so called religion of peace says about some of the things brought up in the documentry. AS it shows the complete hypocracy of Islamic Fanatics and their view on the rest of the world.

Radical Islams War Against the West (Google Video)
video.google.com...

Saar

[edit on 16-9-2006 by saarlonga]

Originally posted by Souljah
PLENTY of Cruely And Violence can be found in Holy Bible.


Only Bible readers who wear the thickest rose-colored glasses can fail to notice all the blood and violence that fill its pages.

As usual once again you miss the point. Show us where in the bible it says a Pope, or cardinal can declare a holy war. You can not do it because it does not exist, where as in the Koran it does.

Originally posted by saarlonga
I just joined ATS after reading this thread and hearing all about the issue with the Popes' lecture.

You are SO right. There ARE fanatics on both sides of the argument, fanatics in the Western World and fanatics in the Muslim/Islamic world.

However there is a difference.. fanatics in the Western world are often frowned upon and ridiculed by others, who bring a sense of order and debate.

Saarlonga,
Wow thanks!! That is quite the complement.
And thanks for your thoughts on this topic. I do think that video you gave the link to will be a good one to watch. As this topic never seems to go away I am sure it will be a good sorce to refrence back to.

In This Information Age is becoming harder to say anything within your own rights as democracy is about that, one can be wrong one can sound like a moron or one can have truth that hurts. Its a shame that our Western progress is deflecting back at us, we can speak anywhere in the world but we can not say what we want writhing our homes or communities. We are building our own prisons of what can and cannot be said. We either stand by the freedoms or we stay quiet.

Where are the anti-Islamic or democratic parties who appose it and questions whether if Islam has a right to stand and dictate to its people? There is no faith balance and it seems there never will be. What if people are in the harsher mental environments that this Islamic law brings should they not know Life outside Islam or are they forced and afraid to do so? Is the reason why they are always from the biggest minorities in countries that are not Islamic if the West is so wrong? Are they in need of freedoms to breath? If the 7 million Arabs in America or Muslims from the West got together they could go back and change Muslim countries or if not form a party that says it wants more freedoms in Islamic countries. But I guess it more fun to make the West the same prison environments they came from, bringing fear to us so we lose our basic rights.

I went to a Roman Catholics school but our science lessons were about evolution and the Big bang but we had to do Religious Studies anyway. So it was balanced, I am not sure of how Islamic education is run, as I have not looked into it, but I wonder if some things are forbidden to say to children about life outside of Islamic universe.

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by shots
You cannot say the same for islam just read the Koran

Oh Yeah?

And Brother Killing Brother is OKEY? (Cain & Abel)

And Parents Killing their own Children is OKEY? (Abraham & Isaac)

And Crucifixion is OKEY?

And Moses Murdering an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking is OKEY?

PLENTY of Cruely And Violence can be found in Holy Bible.

But the problem is, that that is OKEY, correct?

Only Bible readers who wear the thickest rose-colored glasses can fail to notice all the blood and violence that fill its pages.


[edit on 16/9/06 by Souljah]

I hate quoting people but will do.


The first 5 books of the Old Testament is in the Koran so everything about is in there but obviously changed to suite certain criteria.

The old Testament was for the Jewish tribes only it was a Blood line plan by God and certain rules applied and changed accordingly and through covenants.
God had plans for the greater good and will judge during after life about certain events. But there were greater plans at hand and you will realise it out weighs the outcome for the justice for Abel or that Egyptian. The end product of Perdition was in the end more worthy and in line with God's plan, I think God was angry and changed some laws according to the peace process of the Covenants, which are tests of man. These tests were made on Noah and Moses Job and many other prophets who stood up to evil for the sake of God. The Bible teaches one can change even if some acts seem wrong as with the covenant game plan God plays on individuals who represent nations or man Kind by the name of Jesus for example.



[edit on 16-9-2006 by The time lord]

Originally posted by Souljah

PLENTY of Cruely And Violence can be found in Holy Bible.

But the problem is, that that is OKEY, correct?

Only Bible readers who wear the thickest rose-colored glasses can fail to notice all the blood and violence that fill its pages.

Souljah,
You are right there is a lot of violence in the Bible. A thelogien might say something like it is supose to show how bad violence is, or to deglamerise it, but I am not a thelogien. There is a lot of violence in the Bible, but now lets be fair about this, there is violence in the Quran also.

When expressed as a percentage of cruel or violent verses (at least as marked in the SAB/Q), the Quran has about twice that of the Bible. (5.40 vs. 2.74%)*

As shown hear the Quran is TWICE as VIOLENT as the Bible.

Of corse one can also take into accaunt the extent of the violence, or the contex in which is presented. That will of corse be up to the individual.

I hope that the individuals who would contemplate suicide on the command of their Earthly bound masters of manipulation are able to read and comprehend the text of the Pontiffs speech un-edited before committing themselves to a futile act of vengeance over a misunderstanding or worse, purposeful manipulation of content.

I find it most disturbing that a speech meant to encourage peaceful dialoged could instead incite ruthless violence.

Now I haven't read all of these posts so if this is a repeat then sorry. The reason I say this is that I cant be the only one to point out the fact that the Pope says Islam is a religion of violence, then muslims throughout the world go on the rampage burning churches and effigys of the pope, demanding an apology because they say they arent violent!!!

Jeez, you couldnt make it up!

Part of me wants this to escalate to extreme proportions because I reckon the time is right for another 'crusade', and we put these bastards where they belong.

6 foot under!!

Originally posted by Mcphisto
Part of me wants this to escalate to extreme proportions because I reckon the time is right for another 'crusade', and we put these bastards where they belong.

It doesn't really make a lot sense to escalate over the pope's honor being insulted. The current 'crusade' isn't going all that well and escalation doesn't have a lot of popular support.

BTW are you catholic?
.

I dont know what to say but who would listen to a child molesting retarded pope anyway

[edit on 17-9-2006 by bih]

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Souljah
Only Bible readers who wear the thickest rose-colored glasses can fail to notice all the blood and violence that fill its pages.

Let me be the first to state as a Christian that, from what I've been taught and believe, all of those mentioned events took place in the Old Testament, BEFORE Jesus Christ came to save us from ourselves.

Bearing in mind that that's what I personally believe, I don't go around telling everyone that they MUST believe as I do, since that's not my job. My job is to live as an example of how my God wanted everyone to behave.

Since Jesus died, we've became emissaries to the people, trying to show them a more peaceful way. Well, that's the way it was SUPPOSED to be. However, some people came along and ruined all of that by stepping in between the people and God, and started interpreting what God was saying to the people. Anyone with a brain in their heads knows that when someone "intercedes" with you and some entity that you cannot see, that you cannot trust them to tell you what they are supposed to be telling you.

While I don't like things some groups do, I don't judge or condemn them for their actions, since that's not my job. I live by a code of morals that extends far above what most would consider tolerable. Part of my belief is to not judge someone for any reason, since their creator will judge them according to their actions when the time is right. If they believe that Mohammad did all of the things they say, and they try to live that the best they can, that's just fine. It only becomes a problem when they start indiscriminately killing innocent people just because they believe in someone else as a savior. When that happens, then the massacres start. Now that's not to say that Christians haven't had their time of massacring, because they have, during the Crusades. No one's perfect, and this should serve as a perfect example of that.

So far as I know, my God has not told anyone to go out and massacre large groups of people for any reason, regardless of what anyone says. That's not the way I understood my teachings. I believe that we must adopt a more peaceful attitude towards everyone, allowing them the room for growth that everyone should have. The only time that I think that anyone should have a problem is when a group gets out of control, and goes around challenging others just because they think they can. Then, and ONLY then, do I advocate the use of force to subdue them. However, as soon as they are subdued, the attackers should cease and desist so that the people can rethink their outlook on life.

It's no one's duty to rule over everyone else. It's the moral responsibility of everyone to try to do the best they can for all of those around them. It's just a sad fact that most people don't think the same way.

TheBorg

[Edited for clarification and grammar.]

[edit on 17-9-2006 by TheBorg]