Folks, This Is Getting Serious

news.yahoo.com...

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer
Wed Sep 13, 7:41 PM ET



Arctic sea ice in winter is melting far faster than before, two new NASA studies reported Wednesday, a new and alarming trend that researchers say threatens the ocean's delicate ecosystem.


Scientists point to the sudden and rapid melting as a sure sign of man-made global warming.

"It has never occurred before in the past," said NASA senior research scientist Josefino Comiso in a phone interview. "It is alarming... This winter ice provides the kind of evidence that it is indeed associated with the greenhouse effect."

Yet, there are still people who deny that we have a problem. What ignorance!!!

"I hate to say we told you so, but we told you so," he added.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

"It has never occurred in the past"

Odd, I wasn't aware we had detailed polar ice record going back billions of years What he meant was - it's the first time this has happened in the few short decades we've been monitoring it. And there are good synoptics reasons why it happened this year.

So it's not so significant as it initially sounds

However, as usually happens, he will have been quoted out of context in order to make the story sound more dramatic....

(I know this happens a lot - someone I know was quoted recently as saying the complete opposite to what he actually said!)

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Essan]

Originally posted by Essan
"It has never occurred in the past"

Odd, I wasn't aware we had detailed polar ice record going back billions of years

What he meant was - it's the first time this has happened in the few short decades we've been monitoring it. And there are good synoptics reasons why it happened this year.

So it's not so significant as it initially sounds

However, as usually happens, he will have been quoted out of context in order to make the story sound more dramatic....

(I know this happens a lot - someone I know was quoted recently as saying the complete opposite to what he actually said!)

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Essan]

Essan, not to choose a beef with you, but that line of thinking is what has led to the environmental mess we are in today. Let me ask you a question. What good is having a job if the air you breathe is not healthy? What good are vehicles if you can't drive them because of massive flooding due to polar ice caps melting? What good are nice houses if the land you live on cannot grow food?

Answer those questions and we will proceed from there with your argument.

Originally posted by Essan

And there are good synoptics reasons why it happened this year.

What good reasons?Don't just say there are good reasons, tell us what they are.
It's always easy to claim that someones argument is wrong, it's not always so easy to explain why.












[edit on 9/14/2006 by Stormrider]

Originally posted by Stormrider
It's always easy to claim that someones argument is wrong, it's not always so easy to explain why.

Exactly....These "There is no global warming" proponents never come up with information that is not politically motivated. They never show any independent studies that confirm that there is not any global warming. It's always a study sponsored by Halliburton, or some other atmospheric polluting industry.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Stormrider
It's always easy to claim that someones argument is wrong, it's not always so easy to explain why.

Exactly....These "There is no global warming" proponents never come up with information that is not politically motivated. They never show any independent studies that confirm that there is not any global warming. It's always a study sponsored by Halliburton, or some other atmospheric polluting industry.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Could that be because those who belive in anthropomorphic global warming label any and all contradictory studies as politically motivated?
Given the fact that we know, based on the geological record, that the surface temperture of the earth has varied wildly in the last several million years, that the average earth temperture has been far lower than it currently is, and that the earth has been consistsntly warming for the last 10,000 years since the end of the last ice age (except for a brief cold snap in the middle ages) why are you so sure that any warming is man made?

For example are you aware that the Greenland's surface was far less glaciated when it was first settled? That agricultural records show farmers losing thier land as glaciers advanced? And doesn't that lead to the conclusion that at that time greenland, and logically the rest of the earth was far warmer than it is now? And if so, how do we account for that higher level of warmth given the absence of carbon pollutions in light of ortodox global warming theory?

We have had technology for awhile now that enables us to take core samples through the ice and find out what the climate was like in earlier times. I think it's about 1 million years, but not sure. Anyway we can measure the earth's climate from a very long time ago.

Originally posted by forestlady
We have had technology for awhile now that enables us to take core samples through the ice and find out what the climate was like in earlier times. I think it's about 1 million years, but not sure. Anyway we can measure the earth's climate from a very long time ago.

Wxactly, and those climatic records paint a picture of planet whose temperture is in a constant state of flux, eternally either warming or cooling, which humans could not have possibly effected 99.99999% of as we as a species didn;t exist for most of it.
Hell just the existance of evidence for the medievil warm period alone should be enough to show that the planet has in the past been far warmer than it is now at a time when human industry could not possibly hve been a cause.

I've yet to hear anyone answer the questions I posted above.

Here they are again> What good is having a job if the air you breathe is not healthy? What good are vehicles if you can't drive them because of massive flooding due to polar ice caps melting? What good are nice houses if the land you live on cannot grow food?



[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Essan
I wasn't aware we had detailed polar ice record going back billions of years

We do. Its contained largely in the deltaOxygen18 record.

What he meant was - it's the first time this has happened in the few short decades we've been monitoring it.

No, what he means is, this is an unnatural rate of ice melt.

And there are good synoptics reasons why it happened this year

Interesting, I would like to hear.

Amen,Nygdan...That's the way you tell them...

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I've yet to hear anyone answer the questions I posted above.

Here they are again> What good is having a job if the air you breathe is not healthy? What good are vehicles if you can't drive them because of massive flooding due to polar ice caps melting? What good are nice houses if the land you live on cannot grow food?



[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

What good is it asking a question based on a false premise? What good is it asking questions which are overexaggerated hyperbole? How does awnsering a question which is in truth nothing more than an exaggerated strawman argument in any way shape or form constructive?

Originally posted by ThinksYouAreAnIdiot
What good is it asking a question based on a false premise? What good is it asking questions which are overexaggerated hyperbole? How does awnsering a question which is in truth nothing more than an exaggerated strawman argument in any way shape or form constructive?

any one see the report on Siberia on Channel 4 last night?

The permafrost for the first ever time has thawed out to a depth of 40 feet - theres lakes and rivers where they have never been before, and russian troops are having to take peoples out of that area due to the threat of disease - It was so sad to see such an area under almost a small mini inland sea.

Its the first year its ever happened, and they have no explanation for it at all. Its almost gone, and when the last 20 feet of it has thawed, it will be in summer almost one large lake with wooded islands.

Very sad state we have got this planet in.

Originally posted by D4rk Kn1ght
any one see the report on Siberia on Channel 4 last night?

The permafrost for the first ever time has thawed out to a depth of 40 feet - theres lakes and rivers where they have never been before, and russian troops are having to take peoples out of that area due to the threat of disease - It was so sad to see such an area under almost a small mini inland sea.

Its the first year its ever happened, and they have no explanation for it at all. Its almost gone, and when the last 20 feet of it has thawed, it will be in summer almost one large lake with wooded islands.

Very sad state we have got this planet in.

It is sad....What is even sadder is that there are people who will vehemently deny that anything at all is wrong. A lot of "experts" say, "Oh, it's just a cycle. Everything is okay." Whatever. I agree with you on this one Kn1ght.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
It is sad....What is even sadder is that there are people who will vehemently deny that anything at all is wrong. A lot of "experts" say, "Oh, it's just a cycle. Everything is okay." Whatever.

I agree with you on this one Kn1ght.

Again explain the medievil warm period.
Or the Little ice age.
Or the fact that the geological record shows the earth has been warming consistantly except fot those two periods for 10,000 years.
None of which can be blamed on humanity.

Originally posted by ThinksYouAreAnIdiot


Again explain the medievil warm period.
Or the Little ice age.
Or the fact that the geological record shows the earth has been warming consistantly except fot those two periods for 10,000 years.
None of which can be blamed on humanity.

Isn't that the status quo? No one ever wants to be held accountable. It's always his/her fault....nature's fault...God's fault...whatever....I have seen the so-called evidence that the earth warms and cools every 10,000 years....They claim we are about due for another ice age....I think it's been a little over 13,000 years.

Regardless, do you honestly think that everything that is going on would be happening without the aid of the TOXIC chemicals man throws into the air everyday? I doubt it seriously....I seriously doubt it.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Well my degree was in environmental studies, and i can say that yes the Earth DOES go through cycles, we are after all in an interglacial period. There will come a time when we will be plunged into another ice age. HOWEVER that said i can say having studied the issues that global warming is real and made worse by human activity. The world will warm up but the Earth has a feedback mechanism. What will happen is that once the artice ice melts into the Atlantic Ocean it will switch off the Gulf Stream plunging certaintly Northern Europe into a new ice age. This is because the freshwater ice does not mix with saltwater. North America will be affected too. I also reckon the extensive above ground nuke tests in the 40's/50's did alot of damage to the weather systems too. People tend to forget about this human folly too.

So all in all we are probably the last generation to see Earth as it is. I predict in about 100 years or so the Earth will be radically different, if of course if Humanity has not blown itself up in another stupid war/terror attack.

Searching for data on the total estimated volume of ice above current sea level, I came upon this paper. Thought I'd share it here hoping it might add to the discussion.

While recognizing that global temps are obviously increasing, I'm in the seemingly small group that believes the change is insignificant when compared to naturally occuring climate fluctuations. I also believe that while we do have a finite impact on the warming process, it's small, and any action we could take to reverse warming would be equally small.

I'd be interested on hearing other opinions. Please take a look at the authors first 6 bullet items and feel free to comment.

Thanks

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by ThinksYouAreAnIdiot


Again explain the medievil warm period.
Or the Little ice age.
Or the fact that the geological record shows the earth has been warming consistantly except fot those two periods for 10,000 years.
None of which can be blamed on humanity.

Isn't that the status quo? No one ever wants to be held accountable. It's always his/her fault....nature's fault...God's fault...whatever....I have seen the so-called evidence that the earth warms and cools every 10,000 years....They claim we are about due for another ice age....I think it's been a little over 13,000 years.

Regardless, do you honestly think that everything that is going on would be happening without the aid of the TOXIC chemicals man throws into the air everyday? I doubt it seriously....I seriously doubt it.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Yes I do think it would all be going on. The simple fact is this planets climatological history is anything but stable. Furthermore toxic chemical are thrown into the air by many things other than man. Volcanoes, geyesers, hell a recent study purported than cow farts are the biggest source of methane being released into the air today (I # you not) and considering that methane is ten times more effective as a "greenhouse" gas than carbon dioxide, I wonder how the buffalo herds that once wondered the US didn't kick start global warming millenia ago.

The truth is, given that we can't even predict the weather four days from now with any accuracy, I am highly suspicous of any "predictions" about the world 20 years from now, especially since the predictions made in the 70's were flat wrong.
When I went to grade school in florida, I was taught that due to "the greenhouse effect" Florida would be a chain of islands, and the keyes would become reefs by 2000. Miami is still there last I checked.