Abuse (control issues)

Speaking of the person under the control of thier SO, wheather they actualy know it or not...

I just happend to notice that in another thread I was replying and almost used the words "want a man that can 'control me".

That is just plain sick! I thought I'd better acknowledge this, as I am very aware of his control and have been allowing it for 20 years because I didn't want his wrath to fall on the kids.

So - as a part of my own 'treatment plan' that I have drawn up for myself.... I had to point it out.

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
Speaking of the person under the control of thier SO, wheather they actualy know it or not...

I just happend to notice that in another thread I was replying and almost used the words "want a man that can 'control me".

That is just plain sick! I thought I'd better acknowledge this, as I am very aware of his control and have been allowing it for 20 years because I didn't want his wrath to fall on the kids.

So - as a part of my own 'treatment plan' that I have drawn up for myself.... I had to point it out.

Angela

I think I know what you mean and maybe the word you were looking for was "handle"

Some women are kind of like a "wild child" and they need a strong man that can handle all their.... stuff! ;-)

Sort of like a "taming of the shrew" type deal

But the make-up sex is always worth it trust me!!

Let me say something here about the topic, I come from a family that was very male centered, meaning my father always was and still is to some extent in control over my mother. It was plain for me to see, and before I go further let me be clear here I love both my parents, however what I was seeing was just not right to me. And I know my mother was aware of it because I brought up the topic several times and she somewhat acknowledged it but never seemed to do anything about it. To me this implied to me that one, she didn't mind (BS knowing my mother). Or more likely that she was raised up with the belied that even if you don't like what's happening you should go along with it anyway because that's your husband and he should have the say etc... And this makes sense to me because my mother came from a very religious family and one that was very old fashioned so I believe she was raised up and taught that such a circumstance was acceptable, and that saddens me quite a bit. I personally don't want to end up like my father but the temptation is there especially when someone lets you be like that for one reason or another.

My childhood was similar in some ways

My mother moved us away from my father when I was 8 and moved us back to her home province when I was 11

My brother and I were raised mostly by her and the three of us have always been very close. A real couple of mama's boys you might say

We were very shy in school and have had many problems!

But there is so much love in my family and we have many good friends! So I can't complain

Do you understand the concept of Male Disposability and Expendability and how it relates to abuse ...though on the surface it doesnt appear like abuse?? On the surface by social custom or defaults or "givens" it doesnt appear to be abuse...it appears to be the normal order of things.

I am curious about this and your pattern of thinking??

Thanks,
Orangetom

No I can't that say I'm familiar with that concept would you mind explaining it a bit more Orangetom?

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Do you understand the concept of Male Disposability and Expendability and how it relates to abuse ...though on the surface it doesnt appear like abuse?? On the surface by social custom or defaults or "givens" it doesnt appear to be abuse...it appears to be the normal order of things.

I am curious about this and your pattern of thinking??

Thanks,
Orangetom

LOL I find whenever people give me the "disposable and expendable" routine it inevitably turns out that they are actually weaklings just running their mouths trying to scare me - because here I am still alive and kicking, and better and smarter and stronger and making more $$$ every day! ;-)

Abuse has a lot to do with Fear, because in order to abuse someone an abuser has to first make a person afraid to stand up and fight back.

To conquer abuse it is necessary to conquer your earthly fears and even your fear of death. Because people are a lot more reluctant to attack someone who is without fear and who fights back!

A Warrior!

But as for me I believe in Peace and these days I ONLY fight in self-defense!

When You see threads like this ..the standard party line is that only men can be abusers...it doesnt happen the other way around..not possible.

THere is alot of ignorance among men and women about what constitutes abuse...merely by the functioning or non functioning of the social roles which come into play. This is what I call ..."givens" something or a idea a function is a given...you can take it for granted. A default..it automatically goes there ..no thinking required.

Many social roles are actually "givens". It is supposed to be this way and people often act accordingly without thinking it through..male and female.

In this manner both sexes often make themselves expendable and disposable without thinking it through.

We are talking about powerlessness here...in this topic of abuse...but the social roles often work out ..by these givens that only men can be abusers...when it is not so.
For powerlessness you can use the term ..the inability to control or direct the direction your life and labors are going...in otherwords your satisfaction levels.

Its just that it doesnt suit socially for men to play the "victim dictum" as do women or the womens groups.

I have made several posts ..on these boards..

One of them containing several references to abuse or "givens " under which abuse is often set up to occur. This is in a board titled "No finance No Romance" here in the relationships section. Note here particulary the posts I have made to Flyboy 211. I have also posted in a thread titled "Cash cows women out for a mans moneys"

Most of these have to do with a mans narrow arena of thinking allowing himself to be abused..in his ignorance.

Also of importance to this abuse concept for men ..is in the "above top secret " section a thread titled " The war against men and fathers." I am waiting for events to occur to repost on this board in particular..as it has alot to do with observing wildlife in its natural habitat.

One of my points here is that we often think life should be just so...or we have been sold short if it is not just so. That we "deserve better".....because of who we are. As a result of this thinking pattern we often make the efforts of others implicit..not explicit..in getting what we think we deserve.

This is one of the fingerprints of abuse of others so common today. Since we deserve..by marriage...by sleeping with someone else.. by marking out territory...we therefore deserve the choicest morsels off the plate. This happens more often than is ever told publically.

Its up to you to wise up and educate yourself to this. I have done so over the years and worked to educate others...out of thier default setting thinking.

Take a look at those threads and tell me what you think.

Millerman

Disposable and expendable for men has alot to do with their natural ignorance of thier real value in the marketplace. Many men are horribly ignorant about this and will try out ..constantly for female approval even to their ultimate disposability and expendabilty. Some of them literally a death wish. Talk about a dumb bunch of men.

Yes abuse has alot to do with fear ..you are correct. Partucularly with men ..fear of rejection. Women too fear of rejection. This is why real confidence is so important to a man. Because socially it does not do well or is not acceptable for men to use the default settings to play through unquestioned as is so popular today among many women while screaming "Im a Victim."

I will tell a woman or another man ..quickly that I am not disposable or expendable for them. Dont try to make me so. In otherwords..Grow up.

I believe in Peace too...but dont hold much hope for it in World Events or even in the social roles between men and women....these roles have been so perverted by consumption rates in lieu of anything reallly long term valuable.

A warrior ...eh?????? LOL LOL LOL

This statement of yours makes me wonder what you do for a living and how many movies you watch.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Orangetom

>Millerman

>Disposable and expendable for men has alot to do with their natural ignorance of thier real value in the marketplace. Many men are horribly ignorant about this and will try out ..constantly for female approval even to their ultimate disposability and expendabilty. Some of them literally a death wish. Talk about a dumb bunch of men.
>

Yes, very dumb, to try to get approval from women

I say, women have to get MY approval, to be a part of MY LIFE! :p

And I have rejected very beautiful, very attractive women because they did things that pissed me off.....

>A warrior ...eh?????? LOL LOL LOL

>This statement of yours makes me wonder what you do for a living and how many movies you watch.
>

All it means is that I've stared death in the face and conquered my fear of it. You know, like people will threaten to kill me and then they turn out to be little weaklings with big loud mouths with no actual ability to hurt me whatsoever...

You mentioned having a death wish, and it's not that I want to die - just that I'm not afraid of it. Because I am at peace with myself and with God.

And I know that I would go on to a much better, more beautiful place, while the person who chooses to persecute and kill an innocent being would live with the Bad Karma for a long, long time......

I used to be married to a controlling man, and the control changed to what we call verbal abuse and then started to escalate. The first day he raised his hand to me was the last day I lived there.

When you are married to someone who goes through your purse, asks you where you are going when you get up to go to the washroom in your own home and won't let your family visit, you know you've got a problem. Not to mention all the trouble you can get in at work when your husband calls to yell at you five times in a row because he ran out of toilet paper and we all know that was my fault because girls use more toilet paper than men do.

My favourite was when I would get accused of vague 'things' - You know what you did - in an attempt to get me to admit some kind of transgression. That didn't work when I was 10, it isn't going to work now.



[edit on 4-9-2006 by Duzey]

Not a death wish per se..but just not thinking things through while they are trying out for approval. Not sufficiently weighing things out agains the risks many men take for approval. Carelessly and wrecklessly...ie..stupidly.

I gave that up long ago...when I began to put the pieces together...into a pattern of behavior.

I dont want women to try out for my approval ....I found out that I dont really respect them when I perceive them doing this.

I merely state that If I give first fruits I expect first fruits back..not givens..not assumptions that this is how it should be..taken for granted. I dont like to do this to women either...though I know some airheads who need it. Air headed men too.

As to staring death in the face..ok ..if you say so.

Thanks,
Orangetom.

Wow!!! Good to see you again ..I hope all is well down under.

I am very sorry to hear of the loss of one of your countrymen in Mr Irwin. I enjoyed his antics immensely and his regard for the animals on his programs.
I am also deeply saddened for his Family. His two children and his wife, Terry.

Back on the subject.

I too have had women pull what you describe on me. I call it insecurity. I dont care for it either or the insecure manipulation which goes along with it.

Fortunatelly I never had women calling me at work. It is a security area..so calls are not encouraged and I dont give out that number.

I hate that kind of insecurity and baiting. Life is to short and difficult for that kind of drama..

THe woman I am seeing is gone to Nags Head..a tourist vacation spot here on the East Coast of the United States. Not my cup of tea so to speak..I'd rather go to the mountains. I gave her a little cash and said have a good time. I will not be asking her about what she did except to state that I hope she has had a good time. And there will be no twenty questions on this end either. I have stayed round my house here and gotten some work done and relaxed ..read some books, enjoyed some great coffee...etc etc. Peaceful and quiet..I am satisfied with that..and the company of my cat ..Oda Mae.

Very good to see and read your posts again.

Thanks and God Bless you and your house,
Orangetom

My apologies for mistaking your location.

For some reason I thought you were the woman I sometimes posted to down under. Embarrasing. Please excuse me.

I believe for some reason I have you mixed up with Suzy Ryan. My apologies once again.

Orangetom

>Originally posted by orangetom1999

>Not a death wish per se..but just not thinking things through while they are trying out for approval. Not sufficiently weighing things out agains the risks many men take for approval. Carelessly and wrecklessly...ie..stupidly.

>I gave that up long ago...when I began to put the pieces together...into a pattern of behavior.


Ok, well, no idea what you're talking about here....


>As to staring death in the face..ok ..if you say so.


Yes, I have been threatened with death, in real life. More than once.

And that sort of experience (facing death) tends to change a person in a lot of ways!

Hey there Duzey sorry to hear about that, but if you don't mind can you tell me why you stuck around that long and waited until it inevitably got physical?

Also Orangetom, thanks for the explanation first and foremost but I don't know that I can quite agree with everything you're saying. Now, I'm not an abusive or over controlling person but I'm not a pushover either. I don't think that in order for me to fulfill my role as "the man" I have to be all controlling and knowing of very thing that goes on. I don't want to do that to people, especially to one's I'm willing to trust.

I'm willing to let someone do things the way they want to, however and I must stress this I will make it VERY clear not to mistake my kindness for a weakness, I do not easily forgive and I certainly don't forget. So only if they try and take advantage of me will I demonstrate just how cruel, abusive and controlling I can be.

First, Orangetom we've chatted before, but I am afraid you have me confused with someone else. If it helps at all, you like me and think I'm pretty darn smart.

WestPoint, your question is a lot harder to answer. I just want to point out that I was never actually hit, the hand went up and I got the 'Why I oughta' thing. I picked up my purse and left. I didn't return until I had a group of people with me and then it was only to pick up some clothes. Denial only goes so far. I may have been beaten down, but I wasn't that far gone. There had been plenty of threats, but that time it felt different. I was scared, and I had never been physically afraid of my husband before. The next time I would have gotten hit, I am sure of that.

Why was I still there? Not a complete list, but what I've come up with so far is pride (not wanting to admit I had made a mistake), fear of the unknown (what would happen to me), years of verbal abuse that had resulted in very low self-esteem and a belief that marriage is until death do you part. I just had no intention of allowing that to become a literal saying in my case.

I'm sure there's plenty of other reasons I'm not aware of yet. I'm a work in progress.

[edit on 5-9-2006 by Duzey]

Yes...thanks for your understanding..and once again I apologize for mistaking you for Suzy Ryan. I think my mind was on the news flash I had just read about Steve Irwin being killed by a sting ray. My apologies.

Yes I do like talking to you and do think you are pretty smart. Good common sense on your end. Hope all is well up north.

Orangetom

I too am not a abusive and overcontrolling person. I have little use for such conduct.

However ...considering the nature of some peoples I have met ....at times you have to stand up for yourself or be run over. YOu will find that people will want to replace by subtilty ...your value system for thiers. This is more common that ever reported.

I have had this very thing attempted my many women over the years..by them assuming as a given that this is what men are for...a default to play through. This is a mans automatic role in supporting them in the style to which they are accustomed or deserve.
The very sad truth about it today is that many men are taking on this type of role having been raised primarily by women and having womens values...often without even thinking about it. They too tend to think this type of consumption rates is the normal course of things in this world. Givens...defaults. These men too are "high Maintenance." I am sure there are women out here who can attest to this...as well as other men. These men are in fact ..very femminine. Women as a whole are not looking for this type of competition from men. High maintenance

I agree with you very much in your postition of not having someone else mistake your kindness for weakness. I have had to make this very thing clear to many women...and some men too. They will take advantage quickly if you let them.
I have little or no use/respect for high maintenance men either.

When I give first fruits to a woman, or a woman and her children. I expect first fruits back..not second or third or such.

As I am rather independent and self sufficient as well as private and this tends to be a tall order for many women. It is much easier for many to attempt the substitution of their values for mine rather than understand what I am about. It requires a certain knowlege, soul, and commitment levels from the perceptive woman. I can respect and admire a woman like this. When I run across such a woman I liken her to a fine wine or a beautiful strand of pearls. They are quite rare in this high speed fast food lane world. Same with the men. To many of us are stamped out copys of what we see on tv/radio or the transient values of peer groups raised on the same stamped out mediums.

You will learn this intimately when you get out in the world among the wildlife.
I suspect by your posts that you already have down the basic fingerprint.

Thanks,
Orangetom

yes..I suspected that you had no idea of what I was speaking. No problem here.

Many men tend to work in occupations which entail some risk in earning their moneys. For some men ..high risks for their moneys. You do not customarily find women trying out for occupations like this which entail high physical or mental risks..or both.

So men, in trying out for the approval of women in ways which costs much moneys, they are subjecting themselves to more risks in replacing these moneys. Understand?? Most men never think of it this way since they too think it is automatic and a given that they must try out for a womans approval. IT is amazing to me the number of men who never think this through. They just respond to a stimulus which is often not even theirs. Like the male black widow or preying mantis seeking to mate. Some kind of stupid!!! They will try almost anything for approval. Even death.

As I told one woman...she must pay for the next trip to the mountains since I payed for the last one. The conversation just broke right down. I can imagine why??

This is where you begin to learn about your real value in the marketplace...verses givens..assumptions. That is if you are a thinker and not stuck in the sports illlustrated swimsuit edition mindset.


You posted:

"Yes, I have been threatened with death, in real life. More than once.

And that sort of experience (facing death) tends to change a person in a lot of ways! "

Ok..if you say so..curious to know the circumstances...if it is not prying to far.
And yes it makes one think if... as I said if one is not full of ones self in the Swimsuit edition mindset.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999

You posted:

"Yes, I have been threatened with death, in real life. More than once.

And that sort of experience (facing death) tends to change a person in a lot of ways! "

Ok..if you say so..curious to know the circumstances...if it is not prying to far.
And yes it makes one think if... as I said if one is not full of ones self in the Swimsuit edition mindset.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Orangetom

Sorry but I only discuss subjects like that in person with my closest friends.... it is too sensitive an issue to go into details about online.....