People like us

Originally posted by junglejake
So could you explain how Israel has decided to eradicate an entire population because of their race/religion?

Gladly.

Where to start, where to start.

Moshe Dayan

"... we have no solution, that you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wants to can leave -- and we will see where this process leads? In five years we may have 200,000 less people -- and that is a matter of enormous importance."

* Moshe Dayan encouraging the transfer of Gaza strip refugees to Jordan (from Noam Chomsky's Deterring Democracy, 1992, p.434, quoted in Nur Masalha's A Land Without A People, 1997 p.92).

Quotes

David Ben-Gurion

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"We walked outside, Ben Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said, 'Drive them out.'" - (quoted in version of Yitzak Rabin's memoirs published in the New York Times, October 23, 1979).

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)

"Well done, now give it back to them." David Ben-Gurion to Louis Nir, after his unit captured Hebron in the Six Day War.

Quotes

Yizhak Shamir

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Benjamin Netanyahu

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Ariel Sharon

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

Quotes

Jew only roads in the occupied territories

The concept of Jews-only roads should not be entirely surprising since Jews have also created jews-only settlements, villages, towns, and cities, "They (palestinians) are not permitted, by law, to move into Jewish cities or the Jewish neighborhoods of mixed cities. (Kathleen & Bill Christison '"Finally It Broke My Heart": Random Impressions from Palestine'

"small luxury Jewish communities known in Hebrew as "mitzpim". These mitzpim, which have extensive lands on which their inhabitants can build, are required by law to vet anyone who wishes to live inside them. Again by law, non-Jews are not entitled to apply to join these communities." (Jonathan Cook, The Electronic Intifada, 'Apartheid targets Palestinian home-owners inside Israel' )

Israel: A Jews-only state

Descrimination against non-Jews in Israel

The Jews-only policy does not, as yet, extend to stopping Jews from marrying non-Jews - it just makes it impossible for them to live together. "A new law passed by the Israeli parliament on 31 July 2003 bars family unification for Israelis who are married to Palestinians from the Occupied Territories. The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law explicitly discriminates against Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It also implicitly discriminates against Palestinian citizens of Israel, who constitute some 20% of the Israeli population, and against Palestinian residents of Jerusalem, for it is they who usually marry Palestinians from the Occupied Territories. As such, the law formally institutionalizes a form of racial discrimination based on ethnicity or nationality. The UN Committee on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination has expressed concern about this new law and has called on Israel to revoke it and reconsider its policy with a view to facilitating family unification on a non-discriminatory basis. The UN Human Rights Committee has likewise called on Israel to revoke the law and to reconsider its policy with a view to facilitating family unification of all citizens and permanent residents. Not being able to obtain family unification for their Palestinian spouses leaves thousands of Palestinian citizens of Israel and Jerusalem residents with two options: having their spouse live with them illegally or moving to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where they would be living under Israeli military occupation, in a situation of conflict and facing daily incursions by the Israeli army, bombardments, house demolition, curfews and hundreds of checkpoints, which make it extremely difficult to move, work or carry out ordinary daily activities. In addition, it is illegal for Israelis and Jerusalemites to enter the Occupied Territories and those married to residents of the Occupied Territories may only do so in special circumstances and subject to permits and stringent restrictions."

Israel: A Jews-only state

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the racial apartheid and ethnic cleansing Israel has carried out under the shadow of accusations of anti-semitism and the collective guilt over the Holocaust. This action carried out by an allied nation, that our governments allow to occur without narry a wimper, goes against my very grain. I wont sit idly by and allow it to go on without speaking out as best I can. If that offends Zionists, so be it.

Originally posted by stumason
Seems to me like certain people (no surprises, although I think Nygdan is being deliberately obstructive) are missing the entire point here.

The pojnt being, criticism of Israel does not automatically qualify you as a Nazi or Ant-Semite. I have been called this recently, even though I dish out the criticism both ways, I look at the situation objectively and don't have my favourite team.

The point is that we should be free to criticise Israel as we do any Arab organistation without the fear of being labelled as anti-Semitic (ignoring the fact that Palestinians and others are semitic too, if not more than the Israeli's).

If you criticise Iran/Syria/Hezbollah, you can be fairly safe in the knowledge no-one will pull you up and call you an Anti-Muslim, but do the reverse and call Israel on what it does, and before you know it, your've been labelled as a Neo-Nazi Islamo-Facist with a swastika printed on your forhead....

[edit on 7/8/06 by stumason]

I have seen very few people here actually claim, and if they do they don't understand the situation, that this is about religion.

Just because you don't support Israel does not mean your anti semetic, what Subz is actually claim is that he and... those like him? Are actually better then anyone who disagrees with his tunnle vision of the world. And that is wrong, whether you think it or not Subz, it is wrong, and arrogant in it's own obviouse ways. don't assume this situation has ANYTHING to do with JFK, King, Nazis or anything like that, and if you truly where as peace loving war fearing as you claim, you would have been an issolationist, a passifist, a apeasmentist with the rest of Europe as Hitler rose, not fighting with him. Or do you condridict your self. You self rightouse fool you truly disgust me, your pathetic Ego needs to go deaflate a bit. Perhaps we should split into two boards, that way Subz wouldn't have to have us subhuman war mongering killers to make fun of him on his ego centrict post.

Subz - Get over your self, you are not that special and I think you need to realize that, that and that your not better then any person on this board, in fact for your outragious comments I would say your somewhere near the bottom.

[edit on 8/7/2006 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by Rockpuck

I have seen very few people here actually claim, and if they do they don't understand the situation, that this is about religion.

[edit on 8/7/2006 by Rockpuck]

Really? I have seen plenty talk about how it is their God given right, how the Jews deserve Israel blah blah blah... The only reason israel was given the Land was through a biblical claim. How else could they Justify it? The whole thing is about religion, for if it were ethnic claims to the land, the Jews wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Rockpuck

I have seen very few people here actually claim, and if they do they don't understand the situation, that this is about religion.

[edit on 8/7/2006 by Rockpuck]

Really? I have seen plenty talk about how it is their God given right, how the Jews deserve Israel blah blah blah... The only reason israel was given the Land was through a biblical claim. How else could they Justify it? The whole thing is about religion, for if it were ethnic claims to the land, the Jews wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

A minority, and like I said they don't understand the actual situation, as does alot of people on your.. "side" claim Israel is simply being racist. The difference in both of those wild claims? Nothing.

Please keep on topic. The topic of this thread is "people who a critical of israel on ATS are saints amoung men, the sort of people responsible for all goodness and kindliness on the planet".

Rockpuck, ive seen members like yourself come and go. You can do your darndest to insult me and twist my words. It really has no effect on me.

If you agree with those quotations I posted at the start of this page then do so. If you do NOT agree with them then we're on the same side here. OK?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Please keep on topic. The topic of this thread is "people who a critical of israel on ATS are saints amoung men, the sort of people responsible for all goodness and kindliness on the planet".

More mockery, doesnt it get old mocking people? Cant you do us a favour and say anything of substance?

The topic, since i started this thread, is that people who criticise Israel and its practices are not Nazis or anti-semites. People who stand up against something even though it is not in their best interests are frequent in history. I drew a parallel and have received nothing but mockery and name calling from those who claim to disagree. Until you come up with something better than mockery and name calling you'll continue to come off looking intellectually bankrupt.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
A minority, and like I said they don't understand the actual situation, as does alot of people on your.. "side" claim Israel is simply being racist. The difference in both of those wild claims? Nothing.

My "side"? Wasn't aware I was taking sides, but I suppose it may look like that depending on what post you read.

I am looking at the situation in a logical manner and can see no logical reason for the creation of Israel, hence the subsequent problems arising therein.

In the same vein, I cannot understand the tactics used by the Arabs. For example, the Katushya is a devasting weapon when used en masse against an area. The Hezbollah guys would be better off aiming them at troop concentrations rather than at cities. I can, though, see the economic importance of striking, say, Haifa, but with the weapons they have, it would be much more prudent to use them against the IDF.

I would have no problem with Jews living in plaestine if they just moved there and lived side by side with the Palestinians. What I don't understand is the very obvious segregation. Why did the Un not just setup a completely secular state where Jew, Arab , Christian or Buddhist for crying out loud all had the same voice? Works everywhere else, so why setup an apartheid state that favours those who are Jewish?

Again, the situation is entirely about religion and to argue otherwise makes no sense, as there would be no claim for the Jews to the lands that were taken.

EDIT: To clarify, I stand by assertion that criticism of Israel or even querying why israel even exists does not automatically qualify you as an anti-semite. One could argue that calling the palestinians "barbaric" or any other name is also anti-semitic.

Nygdan, as a mod, when making "mod like posts", surely you should be impartial. I find you deliberately obstructive to this discussion and offering very little imput apart from snide comments and attempts to slur the character of those who you disagree with. Very grown up

[edit on 7/8/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by Nygdan
Please keep on topic. The topic of this thread is "people who a critical of israel on ATS are saints amoung men, the sort of people responsible for all goodness and kindliness on the planet".

Why are you inflaming this argument? You are right about one thing, this thread is off
topic. You are all arguing against the poster because of his PAST positions. You have all let those past judgements influence your posts here. The poster made no reference to higher moral ground.

So why does it seem that all outspoken criticizm against Israel gets labeled as anti-semitic or jew hating? It is a very volatile situation we've found ourselves in.
How many people don't speak up on these issues cause of retribution?
Why do we have this atmosphere?

Originally posted by nextguyinline

Originally posted by Nygdan
Please keep on topic. The topic of this thread is "people who a critical of israel on ATS are saints amoung men, the sort of people responsible for all goodness and kindliness on the planet".

Why are you inflaming this argument? You are right about one thing, this thread is off
topic. You are all arguing against the poster because of his PAST positions. You have all let those past judgements influence your posts here. The poster made no reference to higher moral ground.

So why does it seem that all outspoken criticizm against Israel gets labeled as anti-semitic or jew hating? It is a very volatile situation we've found ourselves in.
How many people don't speak up on these issues cause of retribution?
Why do we have this atmosphere?

Exaclty, as a mod, i would expect better from him. He is, of course, entitled to his opinion, but the manner in which he is presenting them is inflamatory and offering little substance.

No mention of higher moral ground? Are you kidding?

It was people like us who stood up with Martin Luther King and questioned the morality of segregation and the inequalities of civil rights within the United States.

It was people like us who stood up with Nelson Mandela and questioned apartheid and the endemic racism in South Africa.

It was people like us who fought against Nazism and all that it stood for. Including delusions of racial superiority, ethnic cleansing, devine right and mass murder which all present themselves in Israel's behaviour.

Subz compared him/her self to Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and those who fought against Nazism for his/her bold willingness to condemn Israel. The implication, too, is that Subz is being persecuted just as those others were, but despite the attrocity of being called a name, (s)he will stand firm, and (s)he will prevail as a noble warrior poet fighting the good fight against name calling.

As to all of your quotes, Subz, Israel's a parliamentary republic. One person's quote means very little, be they in charge or not, if it is not in line with the government's stance. We see it all the time in America, when anyone from a representative to the president says they'd like something done but the rest of government says, "no".

The two points that actually do address Israeli law instead of individuals' opinions (which I stated before were easy to find), appear to be twisted and hyped. It would be like me saying all companies that want to sell Kosher food have to pay a tax to Israel. Yes, you have to pay Israeli companies for the trademark right to put their symbol on your packaging, but that symbol being on your packaging means Rabbis have inspected your facilities to ensure you are following Kosher rules and that it is, in fact, Kosher food. Companies pay for the service, and Jews who keep Kosher know the companies' symbols and their tradition for following Orthodox Kosher law (in some cases). If you can read Hebrew, please find the laws here, straight from the source, instead of from an article explaining how racist Jews are. If you can't speak Hebrew, try to find a free Hebrew to English translation tool online that will translate a website -- I haven't been able to find one yet.

I understand and can see that in there as well, but that is not how I interpreted it.
I took it to reinforce the idea that stifling outspoken criticism by placing a scarlet letter
of your choice on those doing the criticising is paramount to stifling those who spoke out
along side those the poster mentioned.

Anywho, I am not Subz champion, just calling it like I see it.

Do you not agree with this? -So why does it seem that all outspoken criticizm against Israel gets labeled as anti-semitic or jew hating? It is a very volatile situation we've found ourselves in.
How many people don't speak up on these issues cause of retribution?
Why do we have this atmosphere?

Originally posted by junglejake

Subz compared him/her self to Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and those who fought against Nazism for his/her bold willingness to condemn Israel.

I think the actual wording compares subz to the people who stood up with Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, not the men themselves.

I think certain people are skirting the issue to attack Subz "morality".

While not attampting to speak for him, I think the fundamental question he raised was valid..ie: Why does criticising Israel make you an anti-semite or a nazi?

So far, no one has addressed this and attempted to instead attack the character of the poster..

Originally posted by Nihilist Fiend

Originally posted by junglejake

Subz compared him/her self to Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and those who fought against Nazism for his/her bold willingness to condemn Israel.

I think the actual wording compares subz to the people who stood up with Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, not the men themselves.

Thats how I read it too. Not sure why others feel the need to try and say otherwise.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Why do we have this atmosphere?

I beliit is simple. Because we look for it. I can go on and on about how horrible the Jews are, how nasty Israel is, etc. and have discussion picking apart my points, showing me where I'm wrong, and it just seems like a debate. Then someone comes on and calls me an anti-Semite. Aieee! Everyone thinks I'm an anti-Semite now! That doesn't mean it's true, people, and that doesn't mean everyone thinks it. You can discuss problem with Israel using salient points, and do so well without having a hatred of an entire people.

At the same time, the most racist people I've ever known often start their statements with comments like, "I'm not a racist, but..." Just because you say you're not an anti-Semite does not make it true, even if you believe you're not in your heart. There are people who believe they are even handed and see all sides of an issue yet, in reality, are some of the most blinded, hate filled individuals out there.

So, in short, if you're not an anti-Semite, but feel that people all call you an anti-semite when you're critical of Israel, step back for a moment and look at the ratio of those discussing the issue with you and those calling you names.

It is the context of the name 'branding' not 'calling' that is of the utmost importance.
I can be called a doofus and shake it off with ease because the title doofus does not
implicate me in future discussions or situations like the title 'Anti-semite'.

Surely you must agree that that label carries with it some un-warranted if not down right dangerous connotations?

And I dont mind reading, so please elaborate on why you think this atmosphere exists.

Subz, I feel your pain. I didn't read into your post that you were being excessively "holier than thou." In fact, on the contrary, I felt that with the comparisons you made, the point was quite well illustrated that going with the flow ain't always the right stream to be in.

And this is a particularly difficult situation, with extreme opinions at both the extremes. As an American descended from those who took this country by force, it is kinda hard to sit here and take either side. What in the hell do you do when two opposing forces each have in their mind that they have a right to wage war? Bout all I can think of is let them fight- or move Israel somewhere. It is what humans do. Over territory, over religion, over policy, over women, over the promised land. And given how history has shown to repeat itself over and over again, the fighting ain't going to stop anytime soon, and no borders are truely sovereign.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
The point of his post was to address the labeling of outspoken critics against b]Israel.
:
There is no animosity towards Hezbollah in the post because Hezbollah was not the subject.

And that's the point that you are missing. No balance. And you'll never see him post anything solely critical about Hezbollah, either.

I also don't see any attempt at member division or an attempt to claim anything morally. Did you miss this part of his post?...

"People like us pay no attention to who is commiting the injustices, we just see the injustices and say it is not acceptable. "

Bull. Mouthing that lame platitude plus having a "Everybody, please play nice!" signature doesn't excuse the fact that there is no solely anti-Hezbollah rant in his vocabulary. To him, everything bad can somehow be attributed to Israel.

Originally posted by subz
Jsobecky, I said it was people like us who stood up with the likes of King and Mandela. If you have to twist my words around to give yourself bullets to fire then it makes me glad

And by implication, your post accused Israeli supporters as being against the likes of King and Mandela.