Speculatory Paradigm Shift. A view of Reality.

I recently recieved an email from the exhaulted one, Simon Gray, who was nice enough to help me out after I had managed to forget my password, after having spent a few months in Iraq. And, there in his signature was the following statement:

Managing Partner, AboveTopSecret.com, LLD
The internet's most popular destination for the collaborative discussion and speculation of conspiracy theories and other "alternative topics".

Speculation.

I think speculation is indeed a catalyst for thinking outside the box. Speculation empowers us to draw reason and logic in scenarios where all the facts are not yet present and known to us. Coupled with empathy, a powerful tool indeed.

Why do i mention empathy? Because i feel it is a neccesity to have empathy, true empathy, to enable us to understand the driving forces behind possible conspirators, and most importantly, enable us to understand those who may be other than human.

Have you personnally ever had enough empathy to look upon humanity through Alien's eyes? Have you ever tried to look at the world through God's eyes?

Epathy, and Speculation are truly all we have to couple with the facts and myths surrounding the UFO and Alien phenomenon.

So, i say we utilize these tools, not shun them.


Aliens.

What do you believe?

me?

I can only draw upon what experiences i have accumilated over the span of my years. And i can only say this statement with absolute certainty:

100% of all the planets i have been to have been abundant with life.

So, comparing the unknown with the known i know leaves me to speculate we are not alone.

Here is where you can apply your thinking cap, your speculation, and your empathy.

Time travel.

Physicists and scientists worldwide say time travel into the past is theoretically possible, or at the very least they say there is no known law of physics that prevents the possibility.

Now here is the Speculatory Paradigm Shift Eluded to in the title of this thread.

If humanity at some point in the distant future could both travel the stars, and travel through time, where would they go to get the most answers to the most questions?

Here is my original thought this week.

I think a humanity, or the evolution of what humanity becomes, would indeed go back to the beginning. I think we would strongly consider going back to witness the big bang, or aspects of it, going as far back as we could.

And when we got there?

All races from all time throughout the entire universe who also developed or acquired the means of both space travel, and time travel, would be there.

Imagine, all races from throughout all time that both survived and advanced to the point in which they could travel to the beginning, do.

Why the beginning?

To preserve the future?

Scientists the world over seem to be accepting the evidence that is telling us that not only are celestrial bodies heading away from eachother, but the galaxies that are heading away from eachother are in fact accelerating in speed. And also that more stars are dying out than are being born. So it seems to me that the future would be quite bleak for life without viable solar systems and planets for life. So, perhaps it would be out of neccesity that they had to venture back, if only to find a home.

Summary:

If intelligent life exists throughout the universe, and time travel is possible, would it not seem logical that if species throughout the entire universe, throughout all time, evolve and advance to the point where they can traverse time and space, that they do, and all meet at the beginning to witness what brought them all into existance?

Who says that there arnt intelligent species out there performing time travel?? i mean history could have changed several times in several different way already and we would all be oblivious to it...who knows, WW2 may not have happened...and maybe WW3 has already happened? But that would be getting into alternate realities and/or dimensions. Shouldent this thread be in the Science and Technology forum?

Seems like there is no mention of the Second Law of Thermodynamics preventing Time Travel into the past here.

www.sciencenews.org...

Originally posted by Access Denied
Who are these “physicists and scientists worldwide” you’re referring to?

Albert Einstein:

"The relativistic analogy can be carried to its logical end. Since time begins to slow down with higher speeds, it can be shown that at the speed of light it stops totally and beyond that begins to run backwards!"

-- Albert Einstein

John and Mary Gribbon:

Is Time Travel Possible?

In one of the wildest developments in serious science for decades, researchers from California to Moscow have recently been investigating the possibility of time travel. They have realized that according to the equations of Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity (the best theory of time and space we have), there is nothing in the laws of physics to prevent time travel. It may be extremely difficult to put into practice; but it is not impossible.

-- John and Mary Gribbon

LINKS:
www.meem5.com...

www.pbs.org...

it would be possible to dive into such a black hole and through the ring, to emerge in another place and another time. This "Kerr solution" was the first mathematical example of a time machine, but at the time nobody took it seriously.

..... but physicists have always scoffed at the idea of time travel, considering it to be the realm of cranks, mystics, and charlatans, and with good reason. However, rather remarkable advances in quantum gravity are reviving the theory; time travel has now become fair game for theoretical physicists writing in the pages of PHYSICAL REVIEW magazine.


--Dr. Michio Kaku, Professor of Theoretical Physics at the City University of New York, is the author of VISIONS: HOW SCIENCE WILL REVOLUTIONIZE THE 21ST CENTURY and the best-seller HYPERSPACE

Various researchers have proposed ways in which backward and forward time machines can be built that do not seem to violate any know laws of physics. Remember that the laws of physics tell us what is possible, not what is practical for humans at this point in time. The physics of time travel is still in its infancy. While all physicists today admit that time travel to the future is possible, many still believe time travel to the past will never be easily attainable. Don't believe anyone who tells you that humans will never have efficient technology for backward and forward time travel. Accurately predicting future technology is nearly impossible, and history is filled with underestimates of technology.

On the other hand time travel into the future is absolutely possible... only problem is you can't come back.

According to whom?


To tell you the truth i was sort of hoping people that read this thread would be more apt to consider the ramifications and implications of the possibilities, and especially the social and political plausibilities surrounding the coupling of advanced technologies and advanced inter-galactic time travellers.

We should ask ourselves what would it mean, and how would aliens and ourselves from different times (the future) deal with such technologies.

Personnally, for me, it is not hard to imagine that if it were possible, it will be done. In which case measures would have to be inacted to protect all from the contamination of the timeline, and whatever entities would use such technologies to their benifit.

If time travel into the past is not impossible .....

Could it not be possible that we already belong to a far larger government than we are even aware of, having made such a global decision at some point in our own future?



[edit on 4-8-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

No Comments to offer? No one cares to bite?

I think if one were to follow through with the logic that would follow these two assumptions (alien space travellers, and time travel) many possibilities that parrallel many of humanities myteries would perhaps present new answers, and of course, more logical questions.

Anyone?

Esoteric Teacher I believe the scientists you quote are speaking of 'backwards' time travel in a multiverse [M-theory] framework.

Which, if I'm not mistaken, means that you can't go back to your 'timeline' assuming you could figure out how to 'jump' timelines in the first place.

How does that change your thesis ie, which "beginning" will we go to and would everbody else end up there also? There's an infinite amount of these alternate universes (in theory) so I'm not sure how likely it would be to get two seperate time travelers to the same 'past' or timeline. I like the way you're thinking though I'll give it some more thought myself.

PS-
I sent you a u2u re your question on warthog's thread so I didn't hijack his topic.

it is interesting to note that u want to go back to the big bang. i beleive this is just a theory, unless u traveled back to time to witness the assumption of this theory unfold. and my friend i do beleve time travel exists and that time is not just a linear line (after reading about the montauk and philadelphia experiments) it was also intresting to note that thoughout there travels they were never able to travel to a tangable future in or past 2012 (however i would like to know the exact cut off date)

if we were to go back in time (anyone limited in there beleifs about this possibility please read about the montauk experiments philadelphia experiment) suggest going back about 10 years and trying to heal this world and remove us from the materialistic fold so more of us can enter the coming shift in consciousness that will be completed october 28, 2011 in a most resouceful of states or even be alive to witness this. and i think anyone not living in a blissful state of ignorance (which i occasionally try to still do) can see that humanity would be better ridding itself of the tools of deception and manipulation it has created and as we head toward this transformation which is inevitable and if we go back in time to prepare and allign ourselves with this transformation the tools of deception created will become a mute point

the time travel experiments which have not produced a tangable future after 2012 fit right in with my beleif about the transformation of consciousness that is taking place right now (in accordance with the mayan calendar) as the comic evolution of the galaxy reaches new heights the energys have a profound effect on the consciousness of humanity and the progression is also INEVITABLE as we will "break on thru to the other side" wether being the fourth dimension or some kind of ocean of consciousness where our capacitys for pereception are centered around the emotions of love and understanding (as we leave the materialistic fold) and ascend.

i think it is in the BEST INTRESTS OF THE SAFETY of individuals to align there actions and practice kindness and acceptance and forgiveness we are in what the christians call the apocolypse which should be seen as a time where there are REVELATIONS of higher truths (which coincidently the higher levels of consciousness allow us to perceive) and that this ascendtion a METAPHOR for reaching ascending higher (" heaven") while the other option is to cling to materialist greed and be left behind or killed in the materialistic world (metaphor a hell if u will) or maybe keep trying to travel back to preserve your greed and live in alternative dimensions of reality (which could be purgatory) i.e a place people who have yet to ascend to are "stuck in" the purgatory option i have lesser strength of beleif in although it could be plausible (on a side i do not practice mainstream relgion )

THINK ABOUT IT

[edit on 5-8-2006 by cpdaman]

[edit on 5-8-2006 by cpdaman]

[edit on 5-8-2006 by cpdaman]

[edit on 5-8-2006 by cpdaman]

Originally posted by Access Denied


You’re right, many do think it could it could be theoretically (mathematically) possible, but so far there appears to be no way to resolve the various problems it creates which include, in addition to violating the 2nd Law Of Thermodynamics, several parodoxes.

It was only last year that several Physicists described that there are no paradoxes inherent to Time Travel.

No paradox for time travellers

THE laws of physics seem to permit time travel, and with it, paradoxical situations such as the possibility that people could go back in time to prevent their own birth. But it turns out that such paradoxes may be ruled out by the weirdness inherent in laws of quantum physics.

Some solutions to the equations of Einstein's general theory of relativity lead to situations in which space-time curves back on itself, theoretically allowing travellers to loop back in time and meet younger versions of themselves. Because such time travel sets up paradoxes, many researchers suspect that some physical constraints must make time travel impossible. Now, physicists Daniel Greenberger of the City University of New York and Karl Svozil of the Vienna University of Technology in Austria have shown that the most basic features of quantum theory may ensure that time travellers could never alter the past, even if they are able to go back in time.

Originally posted by Access Denied

Minor detail

Minor detail is correct as in not relevant. That also means it is not a failure on the part of the article or the Physicists not to mention it.

Both theories and experiments agree Time Travel is possible. It was suspected not predicted from Relativity that paradoxes would be given opportunity to arise , but Physicists have shown that Quantum Theory wouldn't allow any paradoxes to even arise.

In order to nessecitate the TOE here there would need to be a conflict between the two theories for instance if Relativity predicted that a paradox would happen and Quantum Theory predicts that they wouldn't. That would be a conflict that would require the TOE to resolve. However, paradoxes are not predicted by relativity so there is no conflict.

Relativity only predicts Time travel is possible which opened up speculation about paradoxes and Quantum Theory goes further to show that paradoxes would not even arise.






[edit on 5-8-2006 by lost_shaman]

A few thoughts:

I remember reading a book when a boy's abduction was recalled under hypnosis. He asked the alien when we would be able to do what they were doing. I can't remember the exact question but it was about flying in space ships and when we would do it. The alien replied, "Never. because you don't understand time."

Not only would we go to the beginning but we would also go to the end to see how we could prevent it from happening. Some would go to the beginning and others would go to the end. They would both work their way back towards the middle or the meridian of time. The question has been asked, "What happens when those from the future meet those from the past?" Has anybody else heard the answer?

What if it were not necessary to have a TOE. Please enlighten me here and tell me why this is not true. I have no background or experience in physics. Is it true or not true that since we live in a large "universe" governed by the theory of relativity that we could time travel as long as we obeyed the laws of this theory? If the laws of quantum physics were to have any bearing then we would first have to shrink ourselves down to the size small enough for those laws to take effect and the laws of relativity to no longer apply? What if there is no way to marry the two theories together and they find out it isn't even necessary. Like I say, I have no experience or background here.

Originally posted by Access Denied



Both theories and experiments agree Time Travel is possible. It was suspected not predicted from Relativity that paradoxes would be given opportunity to arise , but Physicists have shown that Quantum Theory wouldn't allow any paradoxes to even arise.

In order to nessecitate the TOE here there would need to be a conflict between the two theories for instance if Relativity predicted that a paradox would happen and Quantum Theory predicts that they wouldn't. That would be a conflict that would require the TOE to resolve. However, paradoxes are not predicted by relativity so there is no conflict.

Relativity only predicts Time travel is possible which opened up speculation about paradoxes and Quantum Theory goes further to show that paradoxes would not even arise.






[edit on 5-8-2006 by lost_shaman]

WOW.

It was not my intention to prove or disprove the possibility of time travel into the past, or future for that matter. Since we seemingly as of yet do not know for sure. It was my intention to have ourselves analyze what possible results of the intentionality of the collective consciousnesses of the universe/multiverse, and the how cosmic politics would be effected, whether we were aware of such cosmic politics or not.

This thread may not reach the potential i was hoping for if all we do is debate the as of yet unprovable. I see and recognize the possibilities of the paradoxes. I have also seen theories that if you were to go back in time and kill the younger you, it would be the you of the future that would replace the you of the past, and you would simply be stuck in an earlier time. I don't know if i buy into that idea, but i thought it may be worth mentioning. I'm going to re-read the thread, and look into some of the ideas you guys present.


I thank you for your contributions.

Originally posted by Access Denied

Your habit of stating conjecture as fact never ceases to amaze me and it appears you don't even realize you're doing it. You're grasping at straws. Go back and read the article you posted. Note it uses words like "may" and "could"... does that sound like fact to you? It's a just theory. Also, if you had actually bothered to read the actual paper you would have noticed this quote…

arxiv.org...

(Of course, there is an equally likely explanation, namely that going backward in time is impossible. This also solves the paradox by avoiding it.)

More Ad Hominems!

Nice Straw man Argument.

en.wikipedia.org...


It was you who introduced links describing Paradox, specifically the Grandfather Paradox. I countered your argument by citing a recent source that claims the very nature of Quantum Theory would not allow a paradox to arise. By avoiding my argument all together and claiming I was stating conjecture as "FACT" asking if words like "may" and "could" sound like "FACT" to me , you created a STRAW MAN that is a misrepresentation of my argument that you can easily shoot down or claim it to be a lack of understanding on my part.

A STRAW MAN argument is logical fallacy at best and a downright backhanded and dirty debate tactic when used knowingly.

You might notice I didn't claim anything as "Fact", but simply pointed out that your argument against Time Travel that includes paradoxes isn't really up to date with current thinking on the subject.

You'll notice even the one line you quoted "avoids paradox". Enough said.







[edit on 5-8-2006 by lost_shaman]

Now if we could somehow instantaneously break ourselves down into individual “bits” of information that describe the current state in space and time of every particle within us and somehow had a way to work with each of those “bits” to transform them and then used that modified data to somehow reconstruct ourselves them we might be able to do some cool stuff… I think

Beam me up Scotty?

It was not my intention to prove or disprove the possibility of time travel into the past, or future for that matter. Since we seemingly as of yet do not know for sure. It was my intention to have ourselves analyze what possible results of the intentionality of the collective consciousnesses of the universe/multiverse, and the how cosmic politics would be effected, whether we were aware of such cosmic politics or not.

I thought you were going for: What if, as the universe was ending/dying, we went back in time to the big bang to save humanity. Would we find other races(aliens) there who had the same idea. I thought that was a good thought experiment... unfortunately I have, maybe, one good thought a month... this months got ruined by watching Timecop last night. Damn you Jean Claude!!! But I'm still thinking and, as soon as I find my car keys, your's is next.

This thread may not reach the potential i was hoping for if all we do is debate the as of yet unprovable. I see and recognize the possibilities of the paradoxes. I have also seen theories that if you were to go back in time and kill the younger you, it would be the you of the future that would replace the you of the past, and you would simply be stuck in an earlier time. I don't know if i buy into that idea, but i thought it may be worth mentioning. I'm going to re-read the thread, and look into some of the ideas you guys present.

Paradoxes usually tell us, access denied could probably better explain it I'm sure, we have a fundamental flaw in our theory/thinking. The grandfather paradox fits in the 'arrow time' AD linked too earlier. You have to go multiverse to go 'back' in time and then you're not really going 'back' but to a different, yet similar, timeline that's just 'behind' ours. Mtheory is theoretical physics/maths and way, Way, WAY over my head (probably a good place for AD to be explaining too ) but I'm pretty sure you could kill your younger self and have no implications. "That you" would be dead in "that timeline." "That timeline" would not have a "you" anymore (assuming you-you leaves) So at your 'regular' timeline your gone (you went off time traveling) the 'other' timeline just had you murdered by you-you so there's not "you" there to grow up a be a time traveler too... but that's ok cause in yet another timeline there's nothing but pink elephants (it's infinite so.... you can make this stuff up as you go *anything's possible* which translates to Jive, turkey)

*cross-eyed*
*ears smokin'*

And that was a whole lot of what you just asked us not to talk about, right? Sorry... blame it on Jean Claude.

Have a good weekend guys,
-Rren

(edit)El typo strikes again! (x2)




[edit on 5-8-2006 by Rren]

[edit on 5-8-2006 by Rren]

Originally posted by Access Denied
If I understand your question correctly, the answer to your first question is obviously yes. According to theory of relativity, time travel into the future is possible at or near the speed of light.

I'm sorry. I just don't think you are right. I mean, i am not travelling at the speed of light right now, and i am moving forward in time, am i not? Einstein and others such as Hawking state the exact opposite in fact. The closer you approach the speed of light, the slower time is.

Edited to add:
But, of course you may be right. Are we talking about the time of the observer who is travelling, or the observers of the travellers?

[edit on 5-8-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by Access Denied
If I understand your question correctly, the answer to your first question is obviously yes. According to theory of relativity, time travel into the future is possible at or near the speed of light.

I'm sorry. I just don't think you are right. I mean, i am not travelling at the speed of light right now, and i am moving forward in time, am i not? Einstein and others such as Hawking state the exact opposite in fact. The closer you approach the speed of light, the slower time is.

Google time dilation. If i'm going FTL in my spacecraft time slows for me, the rest of the world plods along. I drop out of FTL after a year and the universe aged 20 years (don't know the actual figures) So, technically, I travelled in time. Not the time travel your talking about though.

does anyone find it odd in the montauk and philadelphia experiments that they reported they could not "pick up a tangible future beyond 2012 AD there is a very abrupt wall with nothing on the other side"




UM hello!

the ascension is coming the transformation of consciousness has begun it will be most likely complete on october 28, 2011 in the meantime this transformation is opening people's eye's for them and the period we are in now is of REVELATIONS of higher truth's thanks to this transformation of consciousness

when some people wake up to these higher trurths no doubt they will be angry and the gov't sees this coming, and has the concentration (aheemm fema camps ready)

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I think we would strongly consider going back to witness the big bang, or aspects of it, going as far back as we could.

From what vantage point would one view the Big Bang?

[edit on 2006/8/5 by GradyPhilpott]

Er, are you claiming you went to other planets.. and they are "100% abundant with life" .... Because .. I would have to assume your nuts. Sorry, but it is a big claim.

deleted by author

[edit on 2006/8/5 by GradyPhilpott]