The Quran and Muslim Violence

Laugh all you like, semper. Im quite glad it amuses you.

Your rants would amuse me more if it wasn't for the fact you actually believe them.

Thats more tragic than anything really.

What is tragic is you thinking you were defending me. Now that was funny, though not knowing who your talking to, you obviously don't/can't get the joke and that is a shame. For it a really good one.

My "rant" as you call it was written to illicit replies from intelligent, thoughtful people that would possibly enlighten me as to the underlying cause and effect of the Muslim Extremest actions as they pertain to the present day conflicts.

You chose to ignore the intent and focus on some ill conceived and totally delusive idea that I was insulting, or attacking Arabs, Muslims or whatever else was wandering around in your mind.

This has caused a conflict between the two of us that is completely irrelevant to the topic and undoubtedly utilizing post space that could be devoted to those that wish to actually read my post and respond in an appropriate intellectual manner. Not going off on a tangent with some internal prejudice that not knowing you, I could never possibly understand.

So if we could please get back to the topic. I will reiterate for those that do not or can not understand; it is completely in reference to MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. Not Muslims in general.

Thank you for your consideration.

Semper

I have responded in the appropriate manner. You seem to forget what forum you are in.

And I am debating your stance that Muslim fanatics are this big fat threat you claim them to be. They are one of many threats, and lowest on the totem pole.

You are in slugfest, and with a thread like this, like it or not, you are going to provoke a slug match. So get used to it.

The Quran encourages violence. So? So does the Bible.

You focus on Muslim extremists as this grand threat. The real threat is your own government and the people behind it. Muslim extremists might take your life. Your government wants to take more than that.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Also the French thought exactly as you do now until the Germans crossed the Maginot Line.

This is even more laughable. The Germans had a technologically advanced army, well trained and ordered legions, and the financial backing to actually invade France, which by comparison, did not stand a chance anyway. Oh yeah, sharing a border kinda helps.

To compare the German Wehrmacht to a bunch of ragtag goat farmers who resort to suicide bombing and terrorism on a much smaller scale than a blitzkreig is...........laughable. Except the part where you actually believe them to be a threat. Thats a bit sad.

You're right on, Skadi. As usual.

Originally posted by semperfortis


My "rant" as you call it was written to illicit replies from intelligent, thoughtful people that would possibly enlighten me as to the underlying cause and effect of the Muslim Extremest actions as they pertain to the present day conflicts.

You chose to ignore the intent and focus on some ill conceived and totally delusive idea that I was insulting, or attacking Arabs, Muslims or whatever else was wandering around in your mind.

Semper, you should be more careful who you pick your fights with.

More importantly, you'd probly learn a thing or two from the evil elf.

There is much to be learned from any individual.

However to quote my Granny, I didn't fall off the turnip truck either.

I have spent MUCH time over there as both military and civilian.

Perhaps there is something to learn from me, yet that can not happen with a closed mind and the assumption of false premise base on ignorance. Ignorance gained in the either lack of understanding of a post, or complete dismissal of the relevant intent.

I do not know all there is about the issue, yet that is why I put it "out" there. The disruption of threads and disqualification of posts because of some possible assumption of expertise on any subject is impolite and harming to any intellectual dialog.

Leaning from a closed mind, may just cause my mind to become closed in a like manner and that I can not do.

Elf, has posted short, headless comments on other posts of mine, indicating a possible disruptive motive. I will always attempt to defend myself and my position with as much eloquence as possible and not resort to words such as "crap" or any other derogatory idioms. I will however, defend my position and only capitulate to those with like manners and intellect.

I have often debated with Grover and stand against him on many opinions. He has however, been able to "bring" me around to a different point of view on many occasions through his verbiage and persistent quality of debate. Just because someone tells me I am wrong, lowers the level of conversation and uses an invective or two, does not mean I must surrender my beliefs.

Semper

Semper

Skadi and I have both served in the middle east. Trust me when I say, our minds are very open.

I have only the posts to lead my opinions.

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
I have only the posts to lead my opinions.

Semper

With all due respect, you havn't been on the boards here for very long.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Now many posters seem to want to defend these statements with passages of violence from the Bible. That speaks of "Two wrongs making a right."

Fair enough. THey're both savage religions that should be destroyed then.

Also of note is that the Christian Bible consists of two very different and significant parts. Old and New testament. According to most Christian Scholars, the New Testament retracts the OLD teaching

Ok, so its just death to the muslims and jews then.

and begins to teach a practice of tolerance and forgiveness.
So NO JOY on the comparison.

Fair enough. BUt we'll still have to eliminate the religion because its members, they invented modern terrorism (the IRA trained the PLO and is the parent source for modern nationalist-independence terrorist movements) and have a profound history of violence (crusdaes, 100 years war, reconquista, genocide of north america, etc). Heck, at least in the middle east, where islam holds sway, there are survivals of the old religions, like the druze, hebrews, yezidi, zoroastrians, etc. In christendom, they've been exterminated.

History s filled with stories of people being tolerant until it is far to late to stop the tyranny knocking at your door.

Then object to the tyranny. By your own example, we should reject nazism, not the germans, nor even nationalism or patriotism, just the extreme excesses that nazism was. Similarly, we shouldn't reject islam, muslims are human beings, they are capable of depravity, and also generosity.

Indeed, by calling on us to focus on islam as the problem, you are, in all honesty, distracting us from the threat. Its like saying that the nazis are a danger, therefor we must destroy everyone on the political right. Thats what the communists were thinking. Be sensible, and reject the ones actually demanding violence, regardless of what their religion is.

Islam, today, in my no so learned opinion, is in something like the dark ages. What if aliens came to earth in the 8th century and looked at europe, and wiped it out while sneering 'savages'? Islam is in a crisis right now, and if it can't pull out from under the sway of the extremeists, it will crumble under its own weight and dissapear, like so many other institutions in the past. Its not our job or within our ability, or even right, to destroy something like that, history will annihilate it, history will be the judge of it, not us, in our parochial viewpoints and instants of history. We can stand up against extremists, but can't say that Islam is 'evil'.

[edit on 25-7-2006 by Nygdan]

And that makes a difference as to how I should be treated? Whether my opinion should be respected or ridiculed?

I have not yet observed that tendency on ATS as of yet.

What does my time at ATS have to do with my lifes experience and ability to intelligently articulate an opinion and expect the same in return?

You have served in the ME and I applaud your service, however there are several of us that have been there as well. Several that have served and bled there as well. Some of us more than once in different capacities. Travel and experience is not exclusive to any member.

I get it. I'm not part of your little boys club or whatever it is that you have going on and that is fine. I have no problem backing off and letting like minds debate the thread if an alternative opinion is causing that much grief.

Have at it

Semper

The point I was trying to make is you obviously havn't read much of Skadi. It seems you've only been here a short while so that's understandable. She's great to read and talk to & knows her stuff.

I've been gone for awhile and have just returned; let me welcome you and assure you, there is no boys club going on. Just a lotta crazy people sharing alotta different opinions and info.

Semper relax there a while.

Some Long timer ATS folks get real creaky when new people come in and articulate / add some thing that they disagree with. You will find it in almost every thread you open, BUT they are in a minority, ok? they just pop up all over like ground squirrels at times....

ATS is a great place to post your thoughts and feelings about any subject, but just remember that some of the old timers get fidgety in the heat ok??


any how, your article was excellent, and as a women and a westerner, I agree with what you wrote. As a debate starter, well it was awesome

See you in the boards some time.. : )

Thanks GSA

Relaxing now...

I appreciate the comments...

I hate the thought, but I guess that is what the ignore button is for.

Semper

[edit on 7/25/2006 by semperfortis]

Originally posted by semperfortis
Thanks GSA

Relaxing now...

I appreciate the comments...

I hate the thought, but I guess that is what the ignore button is for.

Semper

[edit on 7/25/2006 by semperfortis]

awe, how sweet.

Ignore? Now who's being closed-minded?

and now whos being plain mean?

hit the iggy button semper, believe me its worth it for your own peace of mind in the future.

Enjoy ATS, don't think of it as a chore because of people who drag down threads.

Any how.... pleased to meet you, and welcome. Im new too, but hey, I met ALL of the nasty ones real quick! ( Iggy Iggy Iggy...... )

Oh and skadi does actually write a mean old thread chock full of info! don't iggy skadi unless you REALLY fall out.... But don't fall out over one thread....

[edit on 25/7/06 by GSA]

this thread makes me want to reference skepticsannotatedbible.com (they are equal opportunity and have a skeptics annotated qu'ran and book of mormon as well)

but you can all go to it yourself, and look and the horrible things christians would do if they REALLY followed the bible

just read deuterotomy

here is what the bible says about terrorism

Genesis 35:5
The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them.

Exodus 23:27
I will send my fear before thee.

Deuteronomy 2:25
This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.

Deuteronomy 4:34
... by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors....

Judges 16:27-30
Now the house was full of men and women ... about three thousand men and women.... And Samson called unto the LORD, and said ... strengthen me ... that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines.... And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood..... And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

As Christians use the New Testament for guidance in their lives and the Old Testament for historical reference, could you quote me something from the New Testament that equals this?

Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. This is because they acted adversely to Allah and his messenger” (Koran 8:12)

or this??

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

I am not completely familiar with the Christian Text, or New Testament, but if you could provide some insight where the New Testament even hints at this I would appreciate it.

Semper

Wow, tempers are definately getting hot here. Extremist of any type can be dangerous. I believe that Muslim extremists take the Quran literally and out of context as do some Christian extremists. No where in the New Testment does it call for violence against others. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a message of peace and forgiveness indeed a turning of the other cheek. As Nyguen pointed out however, if the Muslim faith is to survive it must as Christianity is changing. We don't have to destroy it it will in fact destroy itself if it continues as it is.

It is true that Pat Robertson is an extremist it is also equally true that in my humble opinion he is an idiot. Yes, some people however misguided follow him; but here is the big difference between Christianity and Muslim faiths; I won't be killed for calling Pat Robertson an idiot or for not agreeing with someone else's version of faith in a extremist society I would be. Now before I get flamed let me make it very clear that not all Muslims are extremists and the ones who aren't are in fact embarrassed by those that are. Most Muslims are appalled at the behavior of extremists but at this point are unable to control them.

As societies evolve so do the cultural institutions that guide them most notably religious organizations. It wasn't so very long ago that Christian faiths killed those that didn't believe as they did. And it was all faiths Catholic and Protestant but as society changed so did those institutions; Christians learned tolerance of others. This societal change is what is going to have to occur in Muslim countries for there to be true peace not only in the Middle East but in the world.

It is understandable that the Arabs of the region weren't overly pleased to see large numbers of Jews moving in. It is also understandable that the Jews weren't overly excited about sharing governmental powers with the Arabs lest they once again end up the victimized minority. It has also been pointed out that the Jews didn't really have a problem sharing ground with the Arabs until the Arabs kept trying to kill them. Both sides are at fault in this current conflict and both sides are going to have to decide they want to co-exsit in peace.

This is a rather long winded post and of course just my humble opinion.