The Quran and Muslim Violence

I have been reading all of the posts and threads on the current conflict in Israel and the U.S. Liberation of Iraq. Also of interest are the numerous threads and posts relating to suicide/homicide bombers and the many and varied opinions in regards to the motivation necessary for such extreme actions.

I decided to do a little research into the Quran and what I found was very enlightening. Here are some direct quotes from the Quran, the Muslim Bible.

“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. This is because they acted adversely to Allah and his messenger” (Koran 8:12)
~~~~~~~~~~~
Sura 9:5 of the Koran, the holy book of Islam, says:

“When the sacred months are past, kill those who join other gods wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them with every kind of ambush; but if they convert and observe prayer and pay the obligatory alms, let them go their way.”
~~~~~~~~~~~
"Allah’s apostle said, I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’" (H 4:52:196)
Source : www.blessedcause.org...

More :
"When you meet those who disbelieve, smite at their necks 'til when you have killed and wounded many of them, then take them as captives,"Qur'an 47:4.

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that ìthey shall have a great punishment in world hereafterî (Q.5: 34). ìAs for the disbelieversî, it says that ìfor them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rodsî (Q. 22: 9). Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28). Quran asks the Muslims to ìstrive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9). The holy Prophet demanded his follower to ìstrike off the heads of the disbelieversî; then after making a ìwide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captivesî (Q. 47: 4). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness.
www.freerepublic.com...

That is some interesting reading.

Now many posters seem to want to defend these statements with passages of violence from the Bible. That speaks of "Two wrongs making a right." It is also completely irrelevant in that as far as I can research and discover, there are currently no Christians beheading people any where in the world.
Also of note is that the Christian Bible consists of two very different and significant parts. Old and New testament. According to most Christian Scholars, the New Testament retracts the OLD teaching and begins to teach a practice of tolerance and forgiveness.
So NO JOY on the comparison.

I have spoken with many on here, both in posts and U2U's and have found a very wide section of core beliefs among the members. There is also a very wide cross section of tolerance in the discussion of religion. History s filled with stories of people being tolerant until it is far to late to stop the tyranny knocking at your door.

WW III
Is that what we have in the making here? Anyone watching the news, or reading the news posted on here from time to time, can see the potential of massive escalation in the Middle East. With that in mind, how can we argue, or even deny that this is a religious struggle that very well could become a religious world war.

If we are ever to become embroiled in a religious world war, are we still going to be bickering over our right to intervene? Or will we realize too late that our very existence is threaten?

Unlike many on here that verbalize and espouse an extreme religious tolerance, the Muslim Extremists do not follow your ideology. They will not be tolerant of you or your beliefs. Reading the DIRECT quotes from the Quran that I have handily included for you, it is apparent that their goal is dominance.

So do we wait until what is happening in Iraq, Iran, Israel and Lebanon, is happening over here? Is it only when your children are being blown up by IED's, or beheaded by a local extremest that you decide it is time to act? Will it then be too late?

Semper

I have an opinion on this on even if I haven't read your post...
Guns don't kill,people do...It's the same with the religion...It depends how you use it...All religions have one thing in common:
to save the soul

There are some more liberal and less liberal religions,but you can't say that every muslim is a killer because the Qurran says thing or two...
On the other hand it can be stated without too much doubt thaht nearly all terrorists are muslims and all suicidal ones are muslims...But I don't think it has anything to do with their religion...it's the people...that grow in a society that cherish violence...

There are extremists in every religion. Just a few months back the "Rev." Pat Robertson called for the killing of Hugo Chavez.

Praise JeeUsUs!

The Old Testament was pretty violent, to be fair. Thank God for the doctrine of grace found in the New Testament.

I'm curious as to what the author of this thread is actually proposing be done about this scourge, this danger to our beloved western life and lifestyle. I, for one, don't see the angry Muslim horde rushing towards us, scimitars waving wildly above their heads, ready to slaughter or convert us.

Considering my mum was brought up in Muslim country (Iran) and alot of her friends are Muslim they seem pretty chilled. Happy to have a few glasses of wine and a laugh.

Really not very scary at all.

So, don't panic!

I'm curious as to what the author of this thread is actually proposing be done about this scourge, this danger to our beloved western life and lifestyle. I, for one, don't see the angry Muslim horde rushing towards us, scimitars waving wildly above their heads, ready to slaughter or convert us.

Not proposing anything. Simply "putting it out there."

Also the French thought exactly as you do now until the Germans crossed the Maginot Line.

The ultimate irony is that the illusion of freedom and security is considered sound prior to the attack.

There are extremists in every religion. Just a few months back the "Rev." Pat Robertson called for the killing of Hugo Chavez

Did Robertson say "It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that ìthey shall have a great punishment in world hereafterî (Q.5: 34)?

Are there a 1000 Pat Robertson's lining up to do just these things?

Iranian state television has broadcast a cartoon that glorifies suicide bombings against Israelis, depicting a young boy blowing himself up after being told: "Go and show the Zionists how brave and heroic are the children of Palestine."

The cartoon, one of a series shown by the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting on "Jerusalem Day" nine days ago, presents the actions of a boy who kills himself to strike back against Israelis as a noble example for children to follow.
Source

Considering my mum was brought up in Muslim country (Iran) and alot of her friends are Muslim they seem pretty chilled. Happy to have a few glasses of wine and a laugh.

I have Muslim friends as well. However as I stated previously, Muslim Extremists.

IRAN has formed battalions of suicide bombers to strike at British and American targets if the nation’s nuclear sites are attacked. According to Iranian officials, 40,000 trained suicide bombers are ready for action.

The main force, named the Special Unit of Martyr Seekers in the Revolutionary Guards, was first seen last month when members marched in a military parade, dressed in olive-green uniforms with explosive packs around their waists and detonators held high.
www.timesonline.co.uk...

Semper


[edit on 2006-7-26 by wecomeinpeace]

Just wondering how you could properly "train" a suicide bomber. Not something that I imagine the trainee would be able to practice more than once.

Since you're talking specifically about extremeists, then I suppose it wouldn't really matter what the Quran says at all. They don't tend to think about things (especially religion) in a particularly rational fashion!

Originally posted by semperfortis
Also the French thought exactly as you do now until the Germans crossed the Maginot Line.

And they were quite a bit closer to each other, geographically.

The ultimate irony is that the illusion of freedom and security is considered sound prior to the attack.

LOL I have no illusions as I have seen war in the mid-east up close and personal.

Did Robertson say "It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that ìthey shall have a great punishment in world hereafterî (Q.5: 34)?

Are there a 1000 Pat Robertson's lining up to do just these things?

Robertson called on our Special Forces to take him out. There is absolutely no difference between his call and the one you quote. Sadly, far too many Americans do actually follow Robertson's "teachings."

Yes, there are even some here that were over there fighting 20+ years ago. Even a few that went back and volunteered to go teach there this time.

Experience is not always the best teacher, and certainly not exclusive.

And do you seriously not see the difference between one man calling for the death of another and a Bible calling for the eradication of all other religion and the people that practice it?



Semper

[edit on 7/23/2006 by semperfortis]

Originally posted by semperfortis


And do you seriously not see the difference between one man calling for the death of another and a Bible calling for the eradication of all other religion and the people that practice it?

What I see is that man is too eager to judge his fellow man.

Sorry if I'm not sufficiently biased.

Yet your biased enough to compare a religious enchiridion, that teaches, confirms and effectively controls an entire segment of the world population, with the statements of one man.

Correlation

Not even in the same ball park much less belonging in the same conversation.

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Yet your biased enough to compare a religious enchiridion, that teaches, confirms and effectively controls an entire segment of the world population, with the statements of one man.

Correlation

Not even in the same ball park much less belonging in the same conversation.

Semper

And some would say your view is western elitist.

biased enuff to compare... You seem unwilling to see the sameness of these faiths. re: your above statement, the very same could be said of Christianity, you know.

You never said Christianity. That is an entire new argument.


You very simply and reading it again, very clearly compared the Quran to one man's comments.

Now you bring up entire new issues to ... what? Sideline your comment or refuse to support your position?

Semper

I have a couple of opinions on this matter.

Both Islam and Christianity have violent roots, and both originated in nearly the same geographical area. Both religions have been used to justify violence against another group. Even the Pope called for death during the Crusades, promising heaven and absolution for those who killed the infidels.

Hundreds of years down the road some Westerners realized that Religion and Government don't mix too well. Islam calls for a religious government, and for many of the hard-core believers, separation of religion and government (Separation of Church and State) simply cannot be. Unfortunately these hard-core believers are still in charge of much of the Islamic population in the Middle East, keeping it from evolving into something more moderate.

Hundreds of years ago the Muslim faith promoted education of all forms. The Koran states clearly that the ink of a scholar is more precious than the blood of a martyr. The Muslim world produced all sorts of new scientific discoveries, valuable to the entire world. Yet,...when the eager scholars began to question religion itself, the religious leaders put a stop to much of that learning. They restricted education a great deal. These are the sort of men who took control. They cannot separate themselves from their religion the way many Westerners were able to do. They were afraid of losing their power over the people. Forward a few hunderd years:

The Zionist movement (when the Jews began to repopulate Palestine/Israel),... Now you've got a bunch of pissed off Arabs who are being overcrowded by the sudden swell of Jewish immigrants. Thanks to the lack of progress (religion still having a strong hold on the population), now they had two reasons to start fighting the Jews. The Infidel is taking over our lands!

Aside from religious differences, it sort of reminds me of the Pilgrims arriving in America, though unlike the Pilgrims, the Jews have always had roots in Palestine.

The Jews ended up pushing some of the Arab population off the land, and later Israel was formed. Jews (as far as I know) never had a big problem sharing the land with the Arabs, but some Arabs had a BIG problem with the Infidels coming into Palestine in such great numbers. Of course the Jews were afraid that if the majority of the population were Arabs, they might end up under an Arab government, and so weren't too fond of forming a state in which both Arabs and Jews had equal say. Arab governments were never too kind toward the Jews, even though a few times throughout history they (somewhat) peacefully coexisted under certain Arab rulers.

Blame can go to both sides here. Jews were crazy to think that they could come into Palestine, create a Jewish state, and coexist with Palestinian Arabs/Muslims on the same land peacefully, especially when arriving in such great numbers so quickly. Palestinian Arabs/Muslims can partly blame themselves for the conflict as well. Had they been more tolerant, they could have had a joint Jewish & Muslim state. Jews brought prosperity to their land, and Palestinan Arabs could have easily had much of that prosperity for themsleves as well. Unfortunately they missed the big picture, and continue to do so as they proceed with terrorist actions against Israel.

So to end my looooong-winded reply,.... my opinion is that the religion itself is not to blame here, it is the individuals who choose to use it to justify their violent actions. Culture and circumstance has more to do with these actions than religion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam may have the same roots, and all contain the promotion of violence under certain circumstances, but it is the culture of people who decides for what and how to use that book of God. Some cultures move forward, and some remain stagnant. As to why one moves forward and the other doesnt,..well,.... that's a whole new discussion.

NOW that was an EXCELLENT Post

I'm all out of WAT's, but

Nicely done.......

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis

Not proposing anything. Simply "putting it out there."

Why?

Also the French thought exactly as you do now until the Germans crossed the Maginot Line.

This is even more laughable. The Germans had a technologically advanced army, well trained and ordered legions, and the financial backing to actually invade France, which by comparison, did not stand a chance anyway. Oh yeah, sharing a border kinda helps.

To compare the German Wehrmacht to a bunch of ragtag goat farmers who resort to suicide bombing and terrorism on a much smaller scale than a blitzkreig is...........laughable. Except the part where you actually believe them to be a threat. Thats a bit sad.

The ultimate irony is that the illusion of freedom and security is considered sound prior to the attack.

The ultimate irony is you believe that Muslim extremists are somehow capable of invading the west and taking over. Id actually worry more about the French invading America than I would Muslim extremists. They cant even get along with each other. What makes you think they can unite into a good enough army to pose a threat to anyone beyond Israel, if even that?

Did Robertson say "It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that ìthey shall have a great punishment in world hereafterî (Q.5: 34)?

No. He has instead said that anyone who believes in Aliens and UFO should be shot. He has also said that the only people who should hold public office are Christians and Jews.

Are there a 1000 Pat Robertson's lining up to do just these things?

Yes. Thousands of Christian extremists and militias. Remember OKC? Sure, they didn't do it in Robertson's name or by his command. They simply ensposed the extreme views he peddles.

I have Muslim friends as well. However as I stated previously, Muslim Extremists.

Muslim friends? With your attitudes towards Islam, Im a bit surprised at this.

Originally posted by semperfortis
NOW that was an EXCELLENT Post

I'm all out of WAT's, but

Nicely done.......

Semper

Who? Me? If so,... thanks.

Muslim friends? With your attitudes towards Islam, Im a bit surprised at this.

Your either the most incredibly biased person I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, or you have no idea what I posted.

Yes. Thousands of Christian extremists and militias. Remember OKC? Sure, they didn't do it in Robertson's name or by his command. They simply ensposed the extreme views he peddles.

Yep they are lining right up. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
How many countries do they control??? Oh yea...

No. He has instead said that anyone who believes in Aliens and UFO should be shot. He has also said that the only people who should hold public office are Christians and Jews

Again...WHEW...One man, this post was about the Quran, not any single individual.

The ultimate irony is you believe that Muslim extremists are somehow capable of invading the west and taking over. Id actually worry more about the French invading America than I would Muslim extremists. They cant even get along with each other. What makes you think they can unite into a good enough army to pose a threat to anyone beyond Israel, if even that?

Were you in bed on 9/11? They just killed 3000 of us and it is PEOPLE like you that are now "crying WAAAAA" because you have lost some vague liberty, because someone much more intelligent and knowledgeable than you is protecting your behind while you sit here and type your world away.

To compare the German Wehrmacht to a bunch of ragtag goat farmers who resort to suicide bombing and terrorism on a much smaller scale than a blitzkreig is...........laughable. Except the part where you actually believe them to be a threat. Thats a bit sad.

Far to ridiculous to merit comment...

Why?

HMMMMMM
Because I can.

Semper

yes
2manyquestions

YOU...


You have an incredible grasp of the situation and your post is thoughtful and well put.

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Your either the most incredibly biased person I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, or you have no idea what I posted.

Maybe I am. But it doesn't change the fact that you seem to have a mission in life to point out everything wrong in Islam.

Yep they are lining right up. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How many countries do they control??? Oh yea...

The most important country. America. Control America, and you control alot of what goes on in the world.

Again...WHEW...One man, this post was about the Quran, not any single individual.

One man who is being followed by and supported by thousands, maybe millions. The Quran was written by one man, you know.

Were you in bed on 9/11?

Actually I was. The west coast is 3 hours behinf NYC, you know.

They just killed 3000 of us and it is PEOPLE like you that are now "crying WAAAAA" because you have lost some vague liberty, because someone much more intelligent and knowledgeable than you is protecting your behind while you sit here and type your world away.

Vague liberty? No. Those Vague liberties are what makes America the place where millions of people came to seek out better lives. It was those "vague liberties" I missed when I was overseas defending people like you.

Someone much more intelligent and knowldgeable then me? Not in this administration. Greedy and corrupt? yes. Ammoral and ruthless? Yes. Unamerican? Yes. Not the sort of people I want "defending my behind. No thanks. Ill take my chances without them.

Far to ridiculous to merit comment...

My exact feelings about your endless stream of ill founded irrational nonsense. But I still managed to respond.

HMMMMMM
Because I can.

You can because of those "vague liberties" you are so quick to dismiss.

Vague liberty? No. Those Vague liberties are what makes America the place where millions of people came to seek out better lives. It was those "vague liberties" I missed when I was overseas defending people like you.

Defending me?

That was the best thing I have ever read on here...

You have absolutely no idea!!!!!

That is what makes it the best thing EVER....

I can't wait to tell the guys what you said...HAHAHAHAHAHA

Excellent..

Semper (cracking up)