US Government Has Access To Financial Data Of Anyone On The Globe

".... domestic telephony surveillance...."

REPLY: It wasn't domestic!

"This means that the United States has access to British, Australia, German, French, Indian, Chinese - any ones - private financial information."

REPLY: Thanks to the previous admin. most all western couintries have the same capability, and I read somewhere that OBL/Zawaheri has access to it, too.

".... Then it was found out that systematic records were being kept of all domestic phone calls.

REPLY: Not "records"...... but a program that analyzes phone NUMBERS and their connections to other suspicious numbers, bot internal and external to America.

".... I do not for one moment buy the "we're only targeting terrorists" bullhooey

REPLY: Of course you don't. Everyone has their opinion.

".... What fun it would be if "we the people" had such access to the spending of our governments"

REPLY: For the most part, we do; at least here in America.

Consider the FACT that the government has neither the manpower, resources or time to track the bank records of everyone. Geez.... think of the logistics of what that would take. Who here really believe they're important or crooked enough to draw that attention to themselves? Hmmmm?

The "quotes" syntax isn't working here.

[edit on 24-6-2006 by zappafan1]

People I strongly suggest you take some of BOB's advice if you are against this stuff. Although I personally do not feel even credit unions are safe. If you make cash, do not deposit it into a bank. This program could eventually probe into something more advanced years from now to automatically track whether you paid taxes on earned income or not and to appropirately deduct/withdraw the amount you owe in taxes.

Whatever, I will continue to earn cash and not deposit it in my bank. The bank is only there for my employer to deposit what it owes me. I suppose this makes me a terrorist, especially to the likes of ProjectX1986. Hey project guess what, one day you will be the terrorist and those you opress will take you down buddy.

This makes how many times that the NYT/LAT has boken stories about op's that help to track down terrorists, sympathetics and terrorist money? THAT is the story here, and it's high time these people were wearing prison orange for crimes of sedition, possibly treason, for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

This op has led to convictions of at least three people tied to terrorism, both here and abroad.

The LA Times story was 6 pages, and it wasn't until the last paragraph they brought out the fact that it was not illegal.

By the way, I was wrong.... PROMIS goes back to the late 80's, not the early 90's.

Well here is a question, if these programs have been on going for decades, who is leaking the information to the press? There must be several snitches in the government because twenty+ years of secrecy and now it is being uncovered? I find that just a bit odd.

Nothing beats 'cash only'

Originally posted by subz
This situation whereby the United States government can just bypass my own government, our courts and not even inform me is unacceptable. And is not how the system used to always work.

You already admitted your own country is doing it on you. Every country in the world has the very same ability and I am sure many use it, therefore it is not just the US, but you want to make a big deal out of it because of your dislike for the US. We are doing it to track funds of suspected terrorists and do not give a darn what some little unknown down under is doing with their money.

Originally posted by DYepes
Well here is a question, if these programs have been on going for decades, who is leaking the information to the press?

It would seem the NYT (insiders) are the one that wants to leak all the information just so they can further their agenda against the current administration. They have been doing it for years as has the Washington Post.

Maybe the governments of the world might want to check out who the media are paying and I am sure in a while the leaks could be found.

Cash only payments to anonymous informants will probably not yield any sources. I don't necessarily support the program, but I am not necessarily threatened by it. Obviously there are ways to finance a movement without using a banking system. Banks are convinient because of the ability to transfer funds across the globe, but they are just an easy way to lose all of your funds if you are trying to accomplish something against the interests of any country.

Ah well, I welcome them to snoop through my accoutns if they please, they will probably never find a balance greater than 100$

I'm not suggesting, arguing for, or arguing against anything with what I'm posting now, but I feel it's interesting and useful to look back at how the government has sought to develop a data mining network for some time now. People debate the merits and appropriateness of specific programs - such as Registered Traveler or the NSA's surveillance programs - but rarely do we consider what the amalgamation of all these programs provide as a unified capability.

Even prior to 9-11 there were concerns, particularly where the internet is concerned, as you can see here (again, I'm not trying to imply anything. Any inference is your own: )

NSA Key Discovered in Microsoft Windows:
www.cnn.com...

Allegations of National Security Agency Spying on U.S. Citizens Long Before the 9-11 Terror Attacks – Part of “Echelon” Surveillance System Many Fear is Domestic Spying Apparatus:
archives.cnn.com...
archives.cnn.com...

NSA and CIA Deny Allegations of Domestic Spying, but Refuse to Disavow Existence of Echelon Surveillance Network, and Limit Their Denials to “Ordinary Americans:”
archives.cnn.com...

Britain Establishes Internet Domestic Spy Apparatus:
archives.cnn.com...

EU Parliament Claims ‘Echelon’ System Does Exist, is Accessed and Maintained by Five Countries Including the United States, But That Its Capabilities are More Limited than People Fear – Says EU Citizens and Businesses Should Use Only Open Source Operating Systems and Encryption Software, To be Safe, Though (Microsoft Windows, the World’s Most Widely Used Operating System, Does Not Publish Its Source Code):
archives.cnn.com...
archives.cnn.com...

Since 9-11, there have been multiple efforts made toward creating a data mining network similar or identical to the much maligned "Total Information Awareness" system:

There were concerns about Operation TIPS, the "Terrorism Information and Prevention System" which involved citizens reporting suspicious activity:
archives.cnn.com...
archives.cnn.com...

Congress ended the program, and also prohibited creation of National ID Cards:
www.aclu.org...

There were similar concerns about the aforementioned "Total Information Awareness" program:
archives.cnn.com...

Congress dismantled that program as well, but similar efforts have been made without cessation since then, including the now defunct "MATRIX" program:
www.cnn.com...
www.cnn.com...

Another data mining program, CAPPS, was abandoned but revamped under the Department of Homeland Security and a similar program called Secure Flight was introduced:
www.cnn.com...
newstandardnews.net...
www.washingtonpost.com...

Despite the earlier congressional prohibition of National ID Cards with uniform standards, the REAL ID Act was passed, mandating that new standard IDs must go into force beginning in 2008 (states are still working on the specifics of how and when this will be implemented, though: )
www.cnn.com...

Despite the abandonment of CAPPS and the difficulties encountered by Secure Flight, the Registered Traveler program was pursued as a sort of compromise with voluntary cooperation:
www.cnn.com...

Given that the above efforts largely failed, when taken together, the NSA wiretapping, the internet traffic being directed to the NSA directly, the slimmed down and more voluntary airline passenger data mining system, and this latest finance wrinkle, could be interpreted as a means of achieving an overall net capability similar to the one envisioned for Total Information Awareness, but with less centralization and what could be called by some a greater public acceptability factor. The persistence outlined above certainly doesn't preclude that.

Again, I'm not implying that this is a good thing or a bad thing. I just find it interesting that such a capability appears to have been sought with such determination and flexibility. Many of these programs are almost redundant to one another, and are governed in many cases by separate agencies. It almost seems as if they figured at least one form of such a system was bound to get through all the resistance to its creation. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to you, though. I just thought it would be a useful look back at similar efforts in recent years.

[edit on 24-6-2006 by AceWombat04]

There is one thing that seems to be overlooked by most people about this whole "snooping of info" thing.

Its not the governments fault, its big business! Most of what you say the government can find out about you, YOU can also find out about anyone. Just search around the web. Its all there, from simple stuff like;

register a fictitious name and in 2 days you will have advertising at your door

in Clark County Nevada the county tax assessor has a website. punch in a persons name or adress and poof you get a satelite picture of his house in detail enough to see if he is in the back yard. [order the hi res pic from nasa and you can read that book ober his shoulder] When you click on his propety ALL the info is there Tax rate when last paid how much who he bought it from etc. I am sure many cities have it

gisgate.co.clark.nv.us...
Try this address. Its not secret everyone here knows who lives there
6535 S PECOS RD [popups must be on]

For 30.00 a year I can get drivers license info on anyone. I found this out when I was looking up my drivers record on the Nevada state computer. Its free to do your own, 30 bucks lets you access the database!

here is one for Missouri just happened to spot it

www.dor.mo.gov...

On and on. The more you pay the more detailed info you can access

This one 29.95 Just 9.95 for a three day trial

www.cyberdetectiveplus.com...

You want to be paranoid? Well just go to bed tonight thinking about everyone including the government, but any one in the world needs simple a few dollars and a few hours at a computer and get anything they want.

Wake up world... cyber snoop is here!!

[edit on 24-6-2006 by zorgon]

[edit on 24-6-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
I can easily see why the world is starting to hate us...

What do you means "just starting", LOL

Originally posted by zappafan1
".... domestic telephony surveillance...."

REPLY: It wasn't domestic!

How do you figure that one out? How wasnt it domestic? The phone records were taken from the likes of AT&T. They were phone calls that originated within the United States, that means they were domestic. Grab a dictionary.

Originally posted by zappafan1
"This means that the United States has access to British, Australia, German, French, Indian, Chinese - any ones - private financial information."

REPLY: Thanks to the previous admin. most all western couintries have the same capability, and I read somewhere that OBL/Zawaheri has access to it, too.

So? I dont care if you still give a rats about partisan politics, whether this was Clinton's decision or Bush's my indignance would be the same. Also I fully accept the right of my (Australian) government to investigate allegations of terrorist financing of Australian citizens. But when youre government gains access to that information without Australian court approval or Australian oversight it is completely unacceptable.

Originally posted by zappafan1
".... Then it was found out that systematic records were being kept of all domestic phone calls.

REPLY: Not "records"...... but a program that analyzes phone NUMBERS and their connections to other suspicious numbers, bot internal and external to America.

Still got that dictionary handy? Those phone numbers were stored as records in that database that is touted as the largest in the World. Also that "internal" thingy you're talking about is whats refered to as domestic.

Originally posted by zappafan1
Consider the FACT that the government has neither the manpower, resources or time to track the bank records of everyone. Geez.... think of the logistics of what that would take. Who here really believe they're important or crooked enough to draw that attention to themselves? Hmmmm?

Just because an injustice isnt happening to me personally does not mean I do not give a damn. I dont like government's exceeding their mandates of working for the people. Unwarranted surveilance is a symptom of totalitarianism, so they might not be using that manpower to snoop on me at this point in time but if left unchecked they most certainly will come a point when they will.

You obviously trust your government to do the right, I do not. In defence of my position I want you to consider why you even have a constitution and a bill of rights. If your government could be trusted to do the right thing then why codify a government's obligations in writting? I'll tell you why, government's are comprised of people and some times people are bad. If there is no compulsion (i.e. a law) stopping some one in government from doing something then there will come a time when a bad person will do the wrong thing.

I do not want to trust that that never happens. If the government had access to my financial data it would only take one unscrupulous person (and there are plenty of them in government) to manipulate my bank records for financial gain. Trusting governments to do the right thing is a surefire path to tyranny.

Originally posted by zappafan1
This makes how many times that the NYT/LAT has boken stories about op's that help to track down terrorists, sympathetics and terrorist money? THAT is the story here, and it's high time these people were wearing prison orange for crimes of sedition, possibly treason, for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

I do hope you jest. This story is of public interest to the World. The very purpose of the press is to bring stories like this to the publics attention. You have faith that only terrorists are being targeted here. How can you be so certain that the government wont make mistakes or abuse such a wide ranging power? Just look at the no-fly list to see how easily widesweeping powers can go wrong.

Originally posted by zappafan1
This op has led to convictions of at least three people tied to terrorism, both here and abroad.

Says who? The very people who have been exposed carrying out a massive, worldwide surveilance program. You believe they have no motive in lying? There were supposedly 10's or 100's of thousands of searches. Only netting 3 supposed (have they seen a court of law?) terrorists out of 100's of thousands of searches is ridiculous by any ones standards.

Originally posted by zappafan1
The LA Times story was 6 pages, and it wasn't until the last paragraph they brought out the fact that it was not illegal.

How is it not illegal for the United States government to access my financial records with out my permission, without my governments permission and without an Australian court order? It might not be illegal in the United States but its highly illegal in the other countries. You cannot ignore our rights, to claim so is the height of arrogance.

[edit on 24/6/06 by subz]

"US Government Has Access To Financial Data Of Anyone in the USA". But it is ok with me for the US Government to have access to this "Financial Data" of foreign orgin. They already have yours and mine. I am for anything that gives us a leg up on the bad guys. Like it or not we (who live here) are citizens of the greatest experiment in democracy ever and we are staying!If it take grass root forums like this to get peoples attention then so be it. We still have to comunicate the issues to the public so something can be done.

subz: What makes you so certain your government doesn't have a quid-pro-quo with ours? You have lots of radical Muslims there, too.

Disclosing information on our intelligence activities is a crime, and puts YOUR soldiers and citizens in danger, too, and all western peoples.

"Domestic", meaning that the vast majority of numbers being checked were those gained from computer hards drives and/or laptops confiscated in Iraq and America.

I agree with you that the possibility exists that someone might abuse the power of such a technology. Definitions of "use" and "abuse" will always differ from person to person.

I only mention the three I know about in this country and, yes, there were arrests. I can't say much more than that. I CAN say that, although this touches on another thread, the phone surveilance stopped the bombing of the Brooklyn Bridge, and one on the Sears Tower in Chicago. It's not illegal, either (even under FISA laws), and I'm glad they (we) do it.

ConstantlyWondering: You're correct.

[edit on 25-6-2006 by zappafan1]

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by DYepes
Well here is a question, if these programs have been on going for decades, who is leaking the information to the press?

It would seem the NYT (insiders) are the one that wants to leak all the information just so they can further their agenda against the current administration. They have been doing it for years as has the Washington Post.

Maybe the governments of the world might want to check out who the media are paying and I am sure in a while the leaks could be found.

REPLY: Much of the leaks about our intel comes from non-elected people in our intelligence agencies, who are mad because this administration changed the way things are done between the agencies, and they don't like it. Information now has to be shared between agencies, instead of the constant in-fighting that used to go on. Also, from some members of our congress. Right now there are charges pending, and an investigation of, three Dems; Rockefeller, Widen and another one.

It(has) grow(s)(n) everyday.\

no on is ready for truth an time.
ready? ur always new.
and ull say it too sometime.......................

Surely, this is illegal under international law?

If this is to do with monitoring funding towards terrorist groups, why not focuse the transaction of that country? Spain and France have been doing that for decades when it comes to ETA, and the British with the Republican and Loyalist groups in Northern Ireland.

Has the European Union said anything on this?

Originally posted by infinite
Surely, this is illegal under international law?

If this is to do with monitoring funding towards terrorist groups, why not focuse the transaction of that country? Spain and France have been doing that for decades when it comes to ETA, and the British with the Republican and Loyalist groups in Northern Ireland.

Has the European Union said anything on this?

I hope they do soon Infinite because I am not holding my breath for the Howard government to complain

Zappa, you are having problems with quotes because you are using the wrong brackets to encapusulate the quote function. Try using [ and ] instead of < and >.

"Some companies are already talking about embedding the devices into paper currency. Hitachi produces a chip that appears suited to that task. The Japanese company sent out a vial containing perhaps one hundred of them. At first glance the vial was empty; only on closer inspection was it apparent the chips were in there, off to one side, black and minute. They looked like fleas." No Place To Hide Robert O'Harrow

One can infer a great deal from where money is acquired and spent - no privacy whatsoever, even in paper currency.

A complete lack of privacy changes what it is to be human. The central locus of control is compromised with a constant self-checking to make sure any action is suitable for authority. It's not paranoid if they are really watching your every move.

Not all laws are as just as man's higher conscience. Complete invasive surveillance translates to greater intimidation of the higher conscience before it summons the courage to articulate itself.

First, in most states, law officers don't need a warrant to look at YOUR banking records; they just file a formal request. And they get it. The bank is not even obligated to tell you that you are being looked at...

Second, this program has been responsible for the arrest of at least four al quaeda leaders, and the stopping of cash transfers between cells; al-quaeda now has to use manual cash couriers to fund any operations (one reason 911 has not happened again).

Third, even the article itself did not claim that any illegal activities HAD occured, just that they MIGHT. I MIGHT do many wrong things with the shotgun in my closet; but I won't because anything other then skeet, hunting, or home-defense is just plain wrong, not to mention not nearly worth the prison time any such activities would result in.

Fourth, so many of you in here cannot think clearly in regards to the current administration. You hat it so much that you, like the New York times, will do ANYTHING to hurt it or bring it down. You will not allow the concept to enter your hate-addled brains that maybe, just maybe, they're doing something right. You are not even looking at the flip side of this: A year or so down the road, when programs like this have been shut down. Houston is a pile of radioactive rubble, millions are dead, and the lot of you can then look at the TV and say "Well, at least my international banking transfer records are free from prying government eyes." or, "well, at least I got to watch the Bush administration get a black eye." I'm sure those millions now in the next world will be so happy for you.