Are we backing Bush into a corner?

It seems to me that over the past six years as George Bush has been in office, and after 9/11, and after the "War on Terrorism", that we are finding more and more things wrong with the US's governmental system. I am not trying to prove a point about anything or point fingers at anybody, but my speculation seems to appear as if everyone is finding more and more corrupt things with the US every day.

My question is, are we backing GWB into a corner? In my entire life that I have lived, I have never seen this country so close to dictatorship as it has been ever since Bush was in office, and the Bush administration had taken over. We have the facts, we know whats going on, and we know that there is definantly something wrong here.

I am skeptical to know if there is any way that Bush and his administration hears what people are saying. Does he want to listen? Or would he rather just make it look like he is doing good for the country? Is it a race against a Nuclear Holocaust?
What could George W. Bush be thinking now? We just about have all the facts to prove this administration wrong. What happens next? What will he leave for the next president and administration to come?

Once again I am not Bush Bashing, I am just stating an idea of what could be happening.

Originally posted by brodband
Once again I am not Bush Bashing, I am just stating an idea of what could be happening.

Darn! I thought this thread was promising to be interesting

Seriously though, I believe that Bush's legacy will linger. The problem is not only with Bush and his clique, but with the society which matured and whose fabric now, it seems, starts tearing. The system is reliably turning people into consumerist automatons, who pay lip service to Great American Ideas why shopping for the next "pro" grill for the summer bbqs (which are ineed great).

I am curious what you mean by we are closer to a dictatorship that ever. I hear this kind of stuff from Bushbashers all the time. Your last sentence "Once again I am not Bush Bashing" doesn't negate the fact that you actually are. Your entire argument is based on speculation and your gut feeling, there is not fact backing it up there at all.

A large part of the corruption that we are seeing is actually in the media (Mary Mapes, Dan Rather, Katrina coverage, the non stories on Guantanamo Bay "torture", etc). I think we should rise up and overthrow the media. Force them to tell the truth. An easy way to do that is to ban any adjectives or adverbs. For example, reuters will not use the word "terrorist" because it puts a negative spin on an article, however, writers are under no such limitations when it comes to coverage of the US government.

Make no mistake, there are problems with this administration as there have been with every single administration going back to Washington. The difference here, it seems, is the media's desire to illegitimize this presidency for who knows what reason.

Originally posted by Marid Audran
I am curious what you mean by we are closer to a dictatorship that ever. I hear this kind of stuff from Bushbashers all the time. Your last sentence "Once again I am not Bush Bashing" doesn't negate the fact that you actually are. Your entire argument is based on speculation and your gut feeling, there is not fact backing it up there at all.

A large part of the corruption that we are seeing is actually in the media (Mary Mapes, Dan Rather, Katrina coverage, the non stories on Guantanamo Bay "torture", etc). I think we should rise up and overthrow the media. Force them to tell the truth. An easy way to do that is to ban any adjectives or adverbs. For example, reuters will not use the word "terrorist" because it puts a negative spin on an article, however, writers are under no such limitations when it comes to coverage of the US government.

Make no mistake, there are problems with this administration as there have been with every single administration going back to Washington. The difference here, it seems, is the media's desire to illegitimize this presidency for who knows what reason.

By what I have heard and seen from the media...it seems like the United States is closer to dicatorship than it ever has been. Just becasue I say it, and you have seen other "bushbashers" say it, does not mean that I would be called a Bush Basher, it simply means that I am stating my opinion, but also letting people know that I am not trying to bash anybody.

As far as overthrowing the media and wiping them out, why not? Personally, I believe the whole system should be revamped, but that will never happen.

Funny how ideology shapes perception. I see the media as being soft on the President and steering the masses away from the lies, corruption and slide into fascism we now are enjoying. To me the MSM is controlled by the administration or they would really be the 5th estate. A role they are avoiding imo.

By what I have heard and seen from the media...it seems like the United States is closer to dicatorship than it ever has been.

As far as overthrowing the media and wiping them out, why not? Personally, I believe the whole system should be revamped, but that will never happen.

Again, I am not being obtuse, but I am curious how we are closer to a dictatorship. Everything still goes through congress the way it always has. I mean, I guess if you want to be technical any kind of representative democracy is a dictatorship.

courtesy of m-w.com
a : a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique b : a government organization or group in which absolute power is so concentrated c : a despotic state

but otherwise, Bush isn't a dictator - there are checks and balances. the United States is not a despotic state - Bush can't just issue an edict and have it happen (within reason).

The hyperbole surrounding this particular president has been really out of control. He has been called Hitler - an insult to anyone who has studied WW2. He has been called an idiot (in the literal sense) but then also accused of being an evil mastermind.

Personally, I don't feel that my rights as an individual have been compromised in any way. I don't worry about leaving my house at night (other than common sense of living in LA - not Bush's fault!), I don't feel like I cannot go to the movies I am interested in (I saw both an Inconvenient Truth and Fast and Furious 3: Tokyo Drift this weekend), I don't think twice about downloading porn and I don't have any worries about criticising either my local, state or federal government in public places.

Again, people often talk about this dictatorship in hyperbole but I have yet to experience or know anyone who has experienced any evidence of this.

You have voted Marid Audran for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

This is also a feeling I've often tried to express. The problem seems to be that many (here) seem to be so far gone on their Bush witch hunt, that they are no longer capable of rational thinking on this subject.

That said, I am definately not happy with GWB, even though I voted for him twice. There are too many things not being handled correctly in my mind - war, energy costs, monetary policy, immigration. Saying so does not make me a Bush-basher. I am just trying to engage in policy change the 'old fashioned way', through discussion and voting. Not impeachment and criminal trials for those you don't agree with. The latter course, favored by so many here, seems way more dictatorial in nature than anything Bush has done.

Think about it (rationally) ...


[edit on 6/19/2006 by centurion1211]

Though I dislike President Bush (and most of the powerful neoconservitive politicians in power now) on a political leve, what concerns me most is not that the current crop of politicians will somehow stage a coup d'état and turn us into a fascist state. While I'm sure there are some (on both sides of the isle, if we're really being honest) who think things would be "so much easier if only...", we have neither the political tools nor the public sentiment to let that happen yet.

What does concern me, though, are the laws, rules, and precedents that are being made right now. It's not one huge thing, but the piles of small things that are being overlooked in our rush to talk about how bad the current administration is. It is the ways that, little by little, power is being consolidated in the federal government: appointing federal judges who favor increased federal power; the signing statements President Bush has been adding to many laws he signs; statues such as the USA PATRIOT Act that, while likely crafted with good intentions, are poorly written and open to abuse; a growing move to weaken, or even do away with, the posse comitatus act; and so on.

It's no one thing that will kill our democracy, rather it's death by a thousand papercuts. A little here, a little there, and in a generation or two our republic is unrecognizable. If we're not careful, it will happen. It will happen not because of some grand scheme, or overarching conspiracy, but simply because of minor power grabs and periods of consolidation, all of which seem reasonable at the time, but when added together serve only to enrich the appratus of federal government.

As Thomas Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." Not just against dictators and foreign threats, but against the threats of our own apathy.

Whiskey Jack,

I just voted you WATS.

Tons of precendents and modalities are being created which I believe distort the fundamental principles of what America stands for. A thousands little cuts as opposed to one major blow -- are killing our democracy.

To centurion1211:

That said, I am definately not happy with GWB, even though I voted for him twice. There are too many things not being handled correctly in my mind

Why oh why did you make this unfortunate decision? Twice?

The problem seems to be that many (here) seem to be so far gone on their Bush witch hunt, that they are no longer capable of rational thinking on this subject

I, for one, am a completely rational person when it comes to serious matters such as the direction in which my country is moving, thanks to which leader.

Bush's clique is a pro-big money, anti common people gang that needs to be removed from power. On a purely rational level.

What is done to dramatically raise the skill level of American workers so that were are not dead in the water 15 years down the road? Have we done enough to curb the healthcare costs? Why are we still lagging in health conditions despite all the spending? How are we going to repay the insane money wasted on Iraq? Why are we cutting taxes when the nation owes (thank you George) zillion dollars to the banks?

Amnesty to illegals and no effort to enforce the applicable immigratino laws? Puh-leez!


I also, totally rationally, despise the fact that people who made wrong decisions of giant proportions and still are in the office. Like I always say, if you screwed up like THAT, in a normal coropration, you'd be fired immediately.

I dislike the fact that Bush's chronie, the Brown type, was an appointee with not enough skills and attitude to handle the very real challenge of his job.




[edit on 20-6-2006 by Aelita]

Originally posted by Aelita
Why oh why did you make this unfortunate decision? Twice?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe, sometimes, it turns out that some people don't live up to my expectations. I also understand that a perfect person in a perfect world might not ever have experienced that.

Bush's clique is a pro-big money, anti common people gang that needs to be removed from power. On a purely rational level.

And he will be - rationally - at the end of his term, like it says in the Constitution. Anything else sounds disturbing like the SS, KGB or mafia in action.

And, BTW, how much "big money" does George Soros have? In the $billions, right? Also curious as to exactly who you'd name from the 'opposition' that could rationally and truthfully serve as a champion of the common people?



[edit on 6/20/2006 by centurion1211]

Without the press which did nothing to upset the status quo until after Katrina how would we get any information? Clearly one thing necessary for a democracy, information that is. Or would you have us view all the fake news spots the government has made while we wait for the ministry of propaganda to churn out some more. Thank you Geroge may we have some more.

It's amazing that some people still harbor so much irrational animosity for "big money" Considering the attention that the media give to such horrible events as oil companies making money from gasoline, it seems like there is a major Communist conspiracy that never got unraveled.

Not at all, he painted him self into that corner. No one put him there exept maybe Bush Sr. and his lackies. But Bush busted out the brush and paint and got there all by his self.

Originally posted by whaaa
I see the media as being soft on the President and steering the masses away from the lies, corruption and slide into fascism we now are enjoying. To me the MSM is controlled by the administration or they would really be the 5th estate. A role they are avoiding imo.

You can't be serious are you? The MSM in the US is soft on Bush? I can't mention a media in the world that would be allowed to attack its political leader like they can in the US. Furthermore, if the US is fascist then what is much of the rest of the world? From my perspective the US is the only country in the world with any degree of freedom and the people of a certain political persuasion attacking it all the time make it appear that outsiders are trying to take over.

We're not backing Bush into a corner. We're backing ourselves into a corner by getting so devisive that we are creating the problem. The problem is that Bush comes across like a dictator like no other leader before him. And why is that? Because we've stripped off the gloves of responsibility and handed them over to GWB. We have created this scenerio that BUSH is the head honcho, that he is the one running things, he's the boss, the decision maker of this country. WRONG.

We are the decision makers in the country. The government doesn't run this country, not in the vision held by the founding fathers, the PEOPLE run this country and the goverment is merely a figurehead.

What has happened, especially on the Bushbashing side is that people have gotten complacent. It is far easier to sit back and blame the big guy than it is to get up and actually do something to change things. A couple of protest marches? A couple of internet message boards and blogs yeah great. Easy.

Running a country is not supposed to be easy. If we sit here complaining about the state of the Union, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Setting up this country relied on a social contract. That social contract is NOT between the leaders and the people. It is between the people and the people.

It is between the people themselves. We need to vote. We need to be aware. And most of all we need to stop sitting here mulling over all the things WRONG with this administration and instead actually come up with some viable alternatives and solutions.

We have HANDED Bush the power in this country. And why? Because we couldn't handle it. We didn't feel like dealing with it. So we still make no adjustments to our oil consumption. We make no effort to encourage people to vote on a large scale.

Instead we play Monday morning quarterback and leave our personal responsiblity stagnating in the midst.

Our founding fathers would be appalled at how we fellow Americans have taken no responsibility for the conduct of our EMPLOYEES.

I read some of these answers to this thread and I am very disheartened. How can anyone not see the slippery slope we are sliding down so fast? People think that we are not a despotic because they can still go see certain movies? When it gets to that point it is too late.

Some say well I dont see all this effecting me! Well this adminstration is just placing the tools for the next one to pick up and use on us. You want to see a Bill Clinton administration with sneek and peek search warrents and the abilty to just blast into homes without identifying themselves? I work with the police all the time, when I set up incedent command I have control of the scene and the police that are on-scene. I know what they feel about you, and its not very pretty.

The majority of the American public are too far into the conditioning for them to save the USA. I think it will take devine intervention, or we will become an example to the world of what not to do in a free nation.

Originally posted by juryrigged

Our founding fathers would be appalled at how we fellow Americans have taken no responsibility for the conduct of our EMPLOYEES.

juryrigged I commend you for nailing the issue dead-on. What I have seen for decades is nothing but excuses for our various so called EMPLOYEES by what should be the true LEADERS solely because it is deemed by them to be in their individual interest regardless of the result for the country as a whole.

This state of affairs has lead to the incrementalism that drives fears of dictatorship for some, others feel powerless to make change with their vote or opinion, partisanship abounds. Indecision is the rule of the day - prevaricating is the norm.

A politicians wet dream of continual re-election is realized.

All because we the people as a whole have indeed abdicated the throne.

What a shame it is.

Shame on us that is.

(your a new member and deserve a vote for clearly stating what others fail to see)

Phoenix






[edit on 23-6-2006 by Phoenix]