Russia Selling Weapons to Venezuela. But is This Sale More than Just for Profit?

Originally posted by Odium
Muaddib, which part of it do you not understand? I really thought it was fairly common sense what I posted. It is in fact, what a lot of big business does and it is why they open up companies and factories in other Nations.

You made a claim with no information to back your claim. It does not make it true unless you have some real information to back it up.

Originally posted by rich23
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The US media has clearly succeeded in demonising Chavez, who doesn't deserve this.

Right, Chavez is so good that he has already made sure the world believes he "asked Venezuelans to keep him president at least until 2031".... Wait, there was another dictator who did this exactly...and Chavez says this other dictator is a friend of his and his mentor. People want to make up stories that "there is a dictatorship in the U.S." and want to claim Chaves is a hero..... yet, Chavez declares himself a dictator and suddenly he is good and he is just thinking about the people?....

So who is allowed to sell arms to other countries, only the US. I dont see anything untoward here, if someone refuses to sell me something i'll shop around until i find someone who is willing to sell it.
As for russia wanting a return to the cold war i dont think you could be further from the truth, there are way too many mega rich folks in russia now to want a return to the old ways imo.

Our loss was Russia's gain. They just picked up another new customer. What else is new here. They were quick to pick up the fumble.

And the stuff about Chavez wanting to make himself president for life? That is a lie, which Fox News (did you expect anyone to take that seriously as a source) is only too happy to repeat, as it serves the US government's purposes so well.

In response to opposition threats to boycott future elections, Chavez simply wants to remove the "two terms" limitation on the presidency. This is NOT the same thing as making himself president for 25 years, although as it stands, he would almost certainly be freely re-elected right now and for the foreseeable future. Despite attempts by the US-backed opposition to boycott the elections and have them declared illegal, international observers found that the last elections were conducted fairly and produced an entirely democratic result.

If only the US could say the same! The last two elections were notable for egregious fraud: and it looks like the fix is in for 2008, too.

Here is a link to an article that shows that the AP lied about the constitutional change that Chavez proposed.

A little scrutiny of a recent Associated Press report about Venezuela provides a lesson in how the English-language press often gets the story wrong. Take the first sentence: "President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that Venezuelan voters should have the chance to decide whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years."

No, such a referendum would not be about "whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years." A referendum would be about whether Chavez would be permitted to run every six years and --in the event that he were to continue winning elections-- serve multiple presidential terms. The AP report's opening sentence makes it sound as if such a referendum would do away with elections in Venezuela, as if its intent would be to grant Chavez a new 25-year term in office! The website of The Calgary Sun even titles the wire report "Chavez seeking 25-year term"!!

This is obviously an extremely poor piece of reporting. Chavez made it clear that, if the opposition committed to participating in the upcoming presidential election, he would not convoke a referendum to end presidential term limits. He explained that the intent of his threat to convoke such a referendum was not to perpetuate himself in power but rather to defend the Bolivarian Revolution.

Fortunately, Agence France Press (AFP) got the story right. The opening sentence of AFP's Spanish-language report reads, "Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez claimed Saturday that, if the opposition decides not to run candidates in the December presidential election, he could decree a referendum to permit his reelection for multiple terms until 2031."

As usual, when one looks at a story claiming to demonstrate how evil Chavez is, it turns out to be spin. And yet it's fine to try and thwart the democratic will of the Venezuelan people by ousting him in a coup, or to call for his assassination like Pat Robertson. What a hypocritical bunch of BS.

Originally posted by Muaddib
You made a claim with no information to back your claim. It does not make it true unless you have some real information to back it up.

Which part though?

Do you honestly believe that Russia, will build the factories, send men to them, send their own resources and then say: "Here you go!". Come on...lmao

Originally posted by Odium

Which part though?

Do you honestly believe that Russia, will build the factories, send men to them, send their own resources and then say: "Here you go!". Come on...lmao

I guess you did not read what i said about that... Yes, Russia will most probably be paid for helping build those plants in Venezuela....but once those plants are built and are owned by Venezuela, how is Russia going to make certain they are "being paid royalties" for all the ammunition and weapons being built in Venezuela?....

Again, you did not provide evidence to back your claim, until you do, you are only speculating.

Now, to show that this move by Russia is not just "to make profit" let's see what else are Russian officials saying and doing.

Russian Official Urges New World Financial System Without Dominating Currencies
Created: 13.06.2006 15:25 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 15:25 MSK


MosNews


Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, who is often viewed as one of President Putin’s possible successors, said on Tuesday, June 13, that the modern world needs a new stable financial system, in which there will be no dominating currencies. Medvedev was speaking at the 10th Economic forum in St. Petersburg.

At present, dramatic fluctuations of the exchange rates of world currencies put in jeopardy not only the economies of individual countries, but also the world order in general, Medvedev said. In his opinion, the situation cannot remain like that forever. New leaders of world development with their new, stable currencies are coming to the limelight, which will inevitably bring about changes in the financial system too, Medvedev continued. “This is for the coming generations to decide whether or not a new international currency will be created,” he said, quoted by the Itar-Tass agency.

www.mosnews.com...

As we can see, part of the plan they appear to have in mind, and which concurs with what several military defectors from Russia have been saying, they want to get rid of the old economies, and want to create new ones. I wonder why...

Originally posted by rich23
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As usual, when one looks at a story claiming to demonstrate how evil Chavez is, it turns out to be spin. And yet it's fine to try and thwart the democratic will of the Venezuelan people by ousting him in a coup, or to call for his assassination like Pat Robertson. What a hypocritical bunch of BS.

Are you out of your mind?

What spin was done when this is exactly what your article is saying, except that "they decided not to put the part where Chavez clearly states what he wants to do... Next thing you want to do is for everyone to believe only the bs that comes from the government tv station in Venezuela?.....

Again, here is exactly what Chavez said from People's DAily online in English....

Chavez suggests vote on extension of presidency to 2031



Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that he would hold a referendum asking the Venezuelans to decide whether he should extend his presidency until 2031 if the opposition pull out of December's presidential election.

"I am going to call a referendum. I am going to ask you, all the people if you agree with Chavez being president until 2031," said Chavez at a stadium to his supporters in the central Lara state.

english.people.com.cn...

So we can clearly see that who is trying to spin the facts around is you...

Originally posted by Muaddib
As we can see, part of the plan they appear to have in mind, and which concurs with what several military defectors from Russia have been saying, they want to get rid of the old economies, and want to create new ones. I wonder why...

Well Maudibb, I believe, given the current situations in the world, seeing as it is not perfect and can be argued at one of the worst periods in human history, that policies and ideologies of the rulers of the world have not changed much in half a century, that perhaps they want to get rid of the old economies because it would be nice to have a change in the world? People who are afraid of change sound like the people who are afraid to lose power.

I am completely open to a whole new system of life and governance, including socialist ideas, and this does not mean I have to give up freedom or accept a lifetime dictator. People who say that sound quie a bit like con-men IMO. To say you can not at least experiment with a new system without being called a traitor, communist, or told to leave sounds liek somebody who wants to keep the world as it is. And this world is not pretty, fair, equal, or happy, so I would assume the people who want to keep it that way are probably reaping some nice benefits at the expense of the majority of the world.

I'd like to know what was the source of Xinhua's article. If, as is overwhelmingly likely, it is one of the opposition's media outlets (the opposition in Venezuela owning something like 90% of the media there) I'd like a better source than that.

If Chavez is such a dictator, how come he never shuts down opposition media? Having seen The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, I frankly have no doubt that the opposition has no compunction about lying to discredit him, and therefore I'd want to see the Venezuelan source of this story.

Originally posted by DYepes

Well Maudibb, I believe, given the current situations in the world, seeing as it is not perfect and can be argued at one of the worst periods in human history, that policies and ideologies of the rulers of the world have not changed much in half a century, that perhaps they want to get rid of the old economies because it would be nice to have a change in the world? People who are afraid of change sound like the people who are afraid to lose power.
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Well, the thing is that for over 2 years now, one other member and myself have been talking about this and given evidence about this same issue. This has been the plan for decades and it hasn't changed. Russia, China, and some other countries, most of which are in this master plan, have been hoarding gold at unprecedented levels for at least a couple of years now. Part of this plan which I have given evidence of time and again has been to alineate the U.S. and beat us not only economically but later on possibly even militarily.

The CCP (Chinese Communist Party, which still exists despite some people claiming Communism doesn't exist there anymore or anywhere...) even published a book written by two high ranking chinese officials which talks about the ways in which to fight the future wars against the United States. Again, in that same book these two chinese officials even mention using terrorists, such as Bin Laden, to attack places such as the WTC, but few people around here have even though twice about that despite evidence of this book being presented several times now.

In the little over two years i have been aorund here I have presented the statements from Russian military defectors who have been talking about this plan for decades, and that this plan is still in the works. i said that Russia and China will unite militarily, which is part of the plan, back when i first posted this few members even gave a second thought to it while others only laughed, now, a bit over two years later we know this to be true and still everything that countries such as China and Russia are doing points to them still following this plan...yet people still want to believe that it is the United States which is evil and that "U.S. imperialism must be destroyed"...exactly part of the doctrine which the Communist plan had in mind, and it does appear that a lot of people are falling for it...

Great Britain has a friggin Queen that the UK and several other autonomous territories have declared allegiance to for decades. She should be stripped of that title and the position banned. And lets not forget them having already banned ownership of firearms and the fact that the country has the largest Closed circuit public video surveillance system in the world. That sounds closer to a dictatorship than anything Chavez is trying to do, and in one of the beacons of freedom in the world.

I just do not see it happening. One thing has nothing to do with another.

Originally posted by rich23
I'd like to know what was the source of Xinhua's article. If, as is overwhelmingly likely, it is one of the opposition's media outlets (the opposition in Venezuela owning something like 90% of the media there) I'd like a better source than that.

If Chavez is such a dictator, how come he never shuts down opposition media? Having seen The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, I frankly have no doubt that the opposition has no compunction about lying to discredit him, and therefore I'd want to see the Venezuelan source of this story.

Riiight.... It was a frigging speech he gave to a few thousand people...but i guess you are one of those people who will claim this is not true...

Anyways, if you want to read it in Spanish from a newspaper from Caracas, here it is...

El presidente de Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, ha anunciado este sábado su intención de convocar un referéndum nacional para consultar su permanencia en el poder hasta el año 2031 en caso de que la oposición rechaze presentar candidatos para las presidenciales de finales de año.

"Si ellos invocan alguna excusa, rechazando reconocer la victoria, o se retiran antes [del escrutinio], convocaré un referéndum, a través de un decreto y aunque me acusen de querer perpetuarme en el poder, le voy a preguntar a ustedes, a todo el pueblo, ¿está usted de acuerdo en que Chávez sea el presidente de Venezuela hasta el 2031?, ¿sí o no?", ha asegurado el presidente, ante un estadio lleno de simpatizantes en el central estado de Lara.

La Constitución venezolana, votada en 1999, únicamente autoriza un segundo mandato presidencial, pero ésto se podría modificar mediante un referéndum.

Habrá que esperar a ver si Chávez se refiere a organizar una votación cuyos resultados tengan carácter de obligatoriedad para eliminar los límites a la reelección o si está proponiendo un plebiscito. Antes de que Chávez llegara al escenario, miles de sus simpatizantes coreaban: "¡Uh, ah, Chávez no se va!".

www.elpais.es...

I would not worry about the gold issue damaging our economy. America is the third largest producer of gold in the world as shown here, only a hair behind Australia, and with South Africa in perpetual decline for decades now. This country mines a little over 10% of the worlds gold, I do not fear any type of economic collapse. We have plenty of resources to support our own nation, even if our business with the rest of the word were somehow magically cut off.

I mean seriously as has been discussed, Russia and China will have to be able to get their forces over here before anything happens. Half their navy would be sunk by cruise missles, subs, and stealth bomber runs before they even make it to Hawaii. Not to mention Japan and South Korea would probably not even support such a war and would help fight off any land incursions. They know this is detrimental to business and will have no positive outcomes whatsoever.

Seriously man its just pure fantasy warmongering to believe Russia and China are out to create a massive war with America. Those books are not so different than many war scenarios and plans the Pentagon has tucked away. Our country has plans tucked away for any possible invasion from pretty much every nation on Earth, and am sure they have documents on the technecalities of invading countless other nations across the planet for whatever reason. Just about every developed nation on Earth has plans as such.

The world wants peace not war, and the only ones preaching war are either religous fanatics preaching false beliefs, and American citizens who believe socialist ideas are complete evil that can not even be considered at any cost, and would probably persecute and jail those who discuss it if it were legal.

Originally posted by DYepes
Great Britain has a friggin Queen that the UK and several other autonomous territories have declared allegiance to for decades.
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I just do not see it happening. One thing has nothing to do with another.

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about at all.

Shall we see a few "facts" about the Queen of England and her role in Great Britain?...

The Queen is Head of State in the United Kingdom.

As a constitutional monarch, The Queen does not 'rule' the country, but fulfils important ceremonial and formal roles with respect to the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and the devolved assemblies of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

www.royal.gov.uk...

Of course, you are also forgetting that Chavez sees as his mentor and best friend a Communist dictator, castro, who also described himself as a "socialist revolutionary" when he began "la revolucion" in Cuba, and did everything which Chavez is doing now in Venezuela...

castro also called to ask the people to keep him in power for many years, and since "la revolucion" the votes done in Cuba are rigged to make castro win no matter what.

BTW, one of the steps which Chavez has already taken is to put neighborhood watch Cuban style in Venezuela.

After two controversial years at the helm of oil-rich Venezuela, President Hugo Chavez appears to have finally taken the leap into what some are calling the Cubanization of his country.

During a speech Sunday, Chavez called on his supporters to form Cuban-style neighborhood watchdog groups -- "on every corner, on every block" -- in a move to insulate his leftist Bolivarian Revolution from criticism.

www.cubanet.org...

People claim that Chavez is not a Marxist, nor a Communist, yet, even he in speeches has urged people to read Trotsky’s “The Permanent Revolution.”

Recently in his speeches, Chávez has been urging people to read Trotsky’s “The Permanent Revolution,” noting there is much to learn from it and that Trotsky was correct in his arguments with Stalin. “There is no national revolution,” insists Chávez. For a nation’s revolutionary process to survive and advance “the revolution must become international.”

www.alternatives.ca...

And who else is trying to set forth a "permanent revolution"?

The magnetism of the Permanent Revolution
By Celia Hart
Wednesday, 15 September 2004
The following is a paper given at the workshop "The utopia that we need" sponsored by the Bolivar Marti Faculty, September 10, 2004, Central Havana. Translation to English for CubaNews by Ana Portela.
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And when we reach port? The port is in the stars. Someone said once that triumphs are only an excuse to oil the rifles and continue forward. Che did not say it. But he did it …

To what extent is the revolution permanent? Is it perhaps an attack of that fighter that killed Stalinism in Coyoacan, as so many others)? Perhaps rhetorically to handicap the proletariat from taking power, as many believe? We have lived this farce for decades. The permanent revolution does not refer to a simultaneous revolution. In fact, he who headed the Red Army in 1917 was Leon Trotsky. The one who first predicted the October proletarian revolution was Leon Trotsky. The permanent revolution is the only viable form of making a socialist revolution on an international scale. And this is the only scale that promotes the development of the Socialism we need, much more than the lost island of Saint Tomas Moro.

www.marxist.com...

Do note this comes from a Marxist site... but then, you still have people out there who claim that Chavez is not a Communist...

As we can see Chavez wants a "permanent revolution", which in itself is supposed to be an international revolution, which goal is to make every country in the world "socialist revolutionary", which is Communism.

[edit on 14-6-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by DYepes
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Seriously man its just pure fantasy warmongering to believe Russia and China are out to create a massive war with America. Those books are not so different than many war scenarios and plans the Pentagon has tucked away. Our country has plans tucked away for any possible invasion from pretty much every nation on Earth, and am sure they have documents on the technecalities of invading countless other nations across the planet for whatever reason. Just about every developed nation on Earth has plans as such.

I guess you missed the thread on the Chinese civilian cargo ships being recognized by the CCP as ready for war at any time. We had a thread about this, and as well about the Chinese company COSCO trying to acquire at least one submarine for it's fleet.

Originally posted by DYepes
The world wants peace not war, and the only ones preaching war are either religous fanatics preaching false beliefs, and American citizens who believe socialist ideas are complete evil that can not even be considered at any cost, and would probably persecute and jail those who discuss it if it were legal.

First of all, and as many members already know i was born in a Communist country, and i am well aware of the "socialist revolutionary propaganda" which includes people like yourself lying and trying to claim that I am calling for a war when I never said anything about declaring a war against Chavez. I am posting this because people need to know the truth, not the propaganda which has been used for decades by the "socialist revolutionaries" (Communists)

What you said above is not true at all, and unless you are knowingly lying, or you haven't seen the speeches by people such as Chavez, you would know that he has called for the destruction of the United States, through a violent revolution.

Now, let me post what Chavez has been calling for in spanish, from a Chavista website. The following website is in Spanish, for those members who will try to claim that the english website is a lie...but i will post another website in English which will discuss the same things which is said in the Venezuelan website, as well as some other things which Chavez is trying to use to spread the "permanent revolution."

XVI Festival Mundial de la Juventud y los Estudiantes
Venezuela Agosto 2005


Llama Chávez a una ofensiva mundial por el Socialismo
Caracas, 13 ago (AIN) El presidente venezolano Hugo Chávez llamó hoy a apurar el paso en una ofensiva mundial para construir el Socialismo del siglo XXI, y aseguró que existen las circunstancias y todo indica que es tiempo del renacimiento de la esperanza y acción de las masas.

Se trata de salvar al planeta del la amenaza del imperialismo y del capitalismo, para que el futuro de nuestros hijos no sea la barbarie sino el mundo de la felicidad, de la igualdad y la justicia, agregó en su intervención ante delegados al XVI Festival Mundial de la Juventud que tiene por sede a esta ciudad.
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Recordó a Ernesto Che Guevara y la frase ‘’ El presente es de lucha el futuro nos pertenece’’, y prosiguió: yo me atrevo a decir, el presente es de lucha, el futuro está amenazado, hay una espada gigantesca de Damocles apuntando a la cabeza del futuro, y exhortó a luchar para evitar el degollamiento del futuro. ¡Salvémoslo!

Hagamos lo que tengamos que hacer como individuo y colectivo, para que puedan decir de nosotros ‘’la Historia nos absolvió’’ , y para que dentro de unos 50 años ustedes puedan no solo decir esa frase sino también ‘’hemos salvado a la humanidad’’, concluyó.

www.ain.cubaweb.cu...

Global offensive
I believe it is time that we take up with courage and clarity a political, social, collective and ideological offensive across the world — a real offensive that permits us to move progressively, over the next years, the next decades, leaving behind the perverse, destructive, destroyer, capitalist model and go forward in constructing the socialist model to avoid barbarism and beyond that the annihilation of life on this planet.

I believe this idea has a strong connection with reality. I don’t think we have much time. Fidel Castro said in one of his speeches I read not so long ago, “tomorrow could be too late, let’s do now what we need to do”. I don't believe that this is an exaggeration. The environment is suffering damage that could be irreversible — global warming, the greenhouse effect, the melting of the polar ice caps, the rising sea level, hurricanes — with terrible social occurrences that will shake life on this planet.
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It is the moment of offensive, of the masses, of struggle, of battle. It is a new moment we have now and we don't know if we will have another moment later. We don’t know if we will have time.

I believe there is not enough time to wait 50 years for another moment so advantageous like this one to advance in the global struggle against imperialism, against imperialist hegemony and for the creation of new paths, the opening of new paths.

www.greenleft.org.au...

Now please...once again...try to tell us that Chavez is not calling for a "global offensive, a battle against Capitalism, against the United States"....

He is clearly stating he thinks there is not much time and that there must be some action now... He is calling for a war, for a global revolution, and he is claiming that through "true socialism" which is Communism, but a different Communism according to him. @@: He also claims that through the "permanent revolution" that the world will be saved from all the environmental crises and everything which is plaguing the world today...which is of course a lie...

You Dyepes are trying to claim that i must be just an American citizen who doesn't know the truth, yet i lived in a country where such "permanent revolution" was put in effect and i saw the consecuences of such revolution. The same tactics were used back then to make the "working class" believe they will be as equal as everyone else, and everyone will have the same things...and in part it was true, after a dictator similar to Chavez was in power and his power was absolute, he made sure that most Cubans had exactly the same things, which was a lot less than any poor person had before the "permanent revolution" was set in place...



[edit on 14-6-2006 by Muaddib]

Anyways, all of what i posted above is the reason why the Russian government is helping Venezuela, and every other country which like Venezuela, Cuba and Iran want to spread such "permanent revolution" around the world. It has been part of the old master plan, the same master plan which is still working.

Ok you know what, I can not wait for the war. I will die gloriously in battle defending Capitalism from the evil communist pigs! There is no other solution, option, or choice except for that of Capitalism!!!

Is that what you would like to hear from Americans? From all of humanity? Is there no other choice Maudibb except Capitalism even with its own flaws?

I personally think we should merge the two taking the best of both and leaving out the negatives.

Originally posted by DYepes
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I personally think we should merge the two taking the best of both and leaving out the negatives.

Except that what you mention above is not the goal of this master plan, the goal is what Karl Marx called "true socialism", also known as Communism, and Communism has been the force behind some of the worse dictatorships on the planet. Yet their plan has worked so well that many people without fully understanding what they are doing are accepting the same agendas and propaganda that Communism has always been known for. The players are pretty much the same ones with some other additions, such as Venezuela and Brazil, and they have changed some words here and there trying to dismiss the connection between these supposed "new worker's revolution" and the old "worker's revolution."

[edit on 15-6-2006 by Muaddib]

C'mon seriously mate, democracy doesnt have a master plan to take over the world, then what the hell is GWB doing!!!! They(Venezuala) want to buy some armanents to catch up to the rest of the world, which by the way is what we(aust) do with the US. Are you saying that the US doesnt want to be the dominant world power, if you are then you ought to be wearing Mickey Mouse ears cause thats where you should be living(Disneyland). Dont mean to be rude but you do seem to be unusually biased.

Peace
m4s